jlsHouston
Well-Known Member
Thank you... my position as well.
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Missing Child incident on Disney Cruise
- Thread starter GrumpyFan
- Start date
Thank you... my position as well.
flynnibus
Premium Member
1) They LET you go get your child (even that they don't always do.. they keep the public out of the clubs) - they would have OFFERED to let him get your child - big difference
2) He didn't ask for assistance, he was approached and OFFERED assistance when he looked like a dude just wandering the place again and again
Since you have already said you are not familiar with the cruise ships.. I'm just gonna let it go and tell you your expectations are entirely off base.
The clubs consist of organized CM activities AND tons and tons of self-play activities such as games, climbing activities, movies, etc. The children are free to move about between activities on their own and are not individually tied to any single CM. The CMs are leading activities and supervising the group as a whole. The entire space is enclosed and accessible only via CM stationed gates at the entrances to the clubs.
The children are EXPLICITLY allowed to be independent in the spaces - its a area designed specifically, and exclusively, for kids of that age level - no one is individually keeping tabs on your child every minute.
The father then went on his own mission and didn't let the staff do their job.
What you seem to be missing it the very high probability that the father is either exaggerating, mixing his facts up, out right lying or a combination of the three as what he is stating happened is in direct conflict with know procedures in the child areas of the ship.
jlsHouston
Well-Known Member
No one is individually keeping tabs on my child every minute while he/she is in their care? Really? I'm not sure I'd leave my child at a daycare center/childcare activity center with that kind of policy....especially a small one.
jlsHouston
Well-Known Member
And maybe he is exaggerating/mixing his facts up, or out right lying or any of the the three in combinaton. I am not posting that I believe his side exclusively I am merely posting that IMO if you leave your child in an activity center and you return to retrieve them and the staff whose care they were left in are unable to locate the child that is negligent . Whether it's disney or another cruise line or any daycare/daycamp for children. IMO you leave your child at an activity center for supervised activities the staff should know where that child is at all times. Otherwise they are being negligent.
Phonedave
Well-Known Member
When my kids were small, that was a concern of mine - albeit a small one. There were places in the kids club where kids could go and hide and not be supervised. Places like inside a play house or under a table. But then I thought, in grand scheme of things it is not a big deal. My kids were in similar situations before, at school, at day care, and at home. They may be playing in the porch while adults were in the living room. Same thing. You know they are in the porch- -they are not going to get past you.
-dave
flynnibus
Premium Member
Do you not let your children go out to recess while at school?
Do you expect there to be a 1 to 1 ratio between adults and children at any daycare?
Have you ever even seen a daycare?
Your expectations are detached from reality.
sweetpee_1993
Well-Known Member
Wow! Lots to talk about.
I think another point that those not familiar with the kids' clubs on the ships are not considering is that the club this child was in was NOT the nursery. Basically, if a kid is not yet potty trained they have to go to the nursery. The nursery is NOT free. I think some amount of time is alloted to each family as included in the cruise fare but additional time costs $$. If a child is at least 3 years old AND potty trained they can bump up to the kids programming at the Oceaneers Club. The Oceaneers Club is for children 3-12 years old. 3 is the low end of the spectrum there. There's not many ages within that range that would or should require constant hands-on supervision (with the exception of special needs children). The kid in question was 3 and in Oceaneers Club. Parents have the opportunity to go see the spaces, talk with the counselors, and see what it's all about during Open House on embarkation day. If my boys at 3 years old had been going to a facility like this I would've educated myself to know how it all works, what level of interaction AND supervision they'd be receiving, etc. Obviously the parents were okay with leaving their son here. It's definitely something each family has to decide for themselves if the clubs and what they do are appropriate for them. The environments are safe. They're secure. There's lots of staff around doing many thing with numerous groups of kids at any given time. If something were wrong this age group should be able to alert a CM. If a nursery-type supervision is what a particular child needs, it's the parents' responsibility to make that call.
As was previously mentioned, anytime you get on or off the ship every person no matter what their age MUST present a key card that is scanned. When the card is scanned a picture of that guest pulls up on the computer terminal. I'm particularly hopeful and pretty optimistic in thinking that when a minor's card is swiped the adults authorized to take them on or off the ship are linked. If a minor tries to leave the ship without a parent their key will get swiped then they'll be turned around and sent back to their stateroom. I know this from experience. My then-15 yro tried to join us on Castaway Cay on our first cruise (we left him on the ship because he wasn't ready to go when we were assuming he would be allowed to come onto the island with us) had this happen to him. The ONLY way a minor is leaving the ship without their parent is if you've completed the appropriate paperwork ahead of time. Anytime I've approached a gangway there's been no less than 4 CMs standing there watching. There's eyeballs on those gangways aplenty.
As far as fast communication is concerned when a child is missing, well, you can't outrun a radio. It's likely the word was going out as the gentleman was sprinting thru the ship. I can't help but wonder how much more of a mess the whole thing would've been had hysterical dad fallen down those 5 flights of steps. Sure wouldn't have helped the situation. Disney will have procedures for this. No, we aren't privvy to that and we shouldn't be. The father's statement that no communication was going out and that nobody was doing anything was his perception. Frankly, he didn't stick around to ask or find out what was taking place, did he? Perhaps he should've obtained that info then found where he could fill any gaps if there was any.
I'm not going to bash the guy for getting upset. Would've scared the bejeezus out of me, too. Not going to lie and say I might not have been prone to hysterics as well. Just ask my old man about the time my youngest split his head open when he was 3. I was pretty well flippin' at the sight of all that blood. Ended up not even needing stitches but I sure thought the kid was gonna bleed out. LOL! Thankfully, since then I've learned a lot about handling "the worst". My instincts are still to flip but I WILL stop and get that under control because anything other than calm, rational, and controlled will be counterproductive.
I seriously do NOT think I would've let the rest of my vacation be "ruined". And I KNOW I wouldn't have asked for a full refund then taken to the interwebs to start a campaign because I didn't get my way. If it bothered me that much I just wouldn't sail with DCL again.
I'm a firm believer in the opportunity to learn whenever possible. Maybe Disney would consider training their youth programming cast, at least managers or senior cast members, in how to handle hysterical people. You have to talk to them and keep their brains focused. If they escalate you have to use tone & verbage to command calmness so they'll follow. Instead of hysterical people running thru the ship someone should pull the parents aside, sit them down, explain that things are taking place, tell them what the next step is, educate them on what to expect, keep them focused on solutions and work together with the cast to get thru the situation. Really, what this guy did...the running about flipping out...was probably the WORST thing he could've done for himself, his wife, and their "missing" child (who wasn't actually missing at all).
I think another point that those not familiar with the kids' clubs on the ships are not considering is that the club this child was in was NOT the nursery. Basically, if a kid is not yet potty trained they have to go to the nursery. The nursery is NOT free. I think some amount of time is alloted to each family as included in the cruise fare but additional time costs $$. If a child is at least 3 years old AND potty trained they can bump up to the kids programming at the Oceaneers Club. The Oceaneers Club is for children 3-12 years old. 3 is the low end of the spectrum there. There's not many ages within that range that would or should require constant hands-on supervision (with the exception of special needs children). The kid in question was 3 and in Oceaneers Club. Parents have the opportunity to go see the spaces, talk with the counselors, and see what it's all about during Open House on embarkation day. If my boys at 3 years old had been going to a facility like this I would've educated myself to know how it all works, what level of interaction AND supervision they'd be receiving, etc. Obviously the parents were okay with leaving their son here. It's definitely something each family has to decide for themselves if the clubs and what they do are appropriate for them. The environments are safe. They're secure. There's lots of staff around doing many thing with numerous groups of kids at any given time. If something were wrong this age group should be able to alert a CM. If a nursery-type supervision is what a particular child needs, it's the parents' responsibility to make that call.
As was previously mentioned, anytime you get on or off the ship every person no matter what their age MUST present a key card that is scanned. When the card is scanned a picture of that guest pulls up on the computer terminal. I'm particularly hopeful and pretty optimistic in thinking that when a minor's card is swiped the adults authorized to take them on or off the ship are linked. If a minor tries to leave the ship without a parent their key will get swiped then they'll be turned around and sent back to their stateroom. I know this from experience. My then-15 yro tried to join us on Castaway Cay on our first cruise (we left him on the ship because he wasn't ready to go when we were assuming he would be allowed to come onto the island with us) had this happen to him. The ONLY way a minor is leaving the ship without their parent is if you've completed the appropriate paperwork ahead of time. Anytime I've approached a gangway there's been no less than 4 CMs standing there watching. There's eyeballs on those gangways aplenty.
As far as fast communication is concerned when a child is missing, well, you can't outrun a radio. It's likely the word was going out as the gentleman was sprinting thru the ship. I can't help but wonder how much more of a mess the whole thing would've been had hysterical dad fallen down those 5 flights of steps. Sure wouldn't have helped the situation. Disney will have procedures for this. No, we aren't privvy to that and we shouldn't be. The father's statement that no communication was going out and that nobody was doing anything was his perception. Frankly, he didn't stick around to ask or find out what was taking place, did he? Perhaps he should've obtained that info then found where he could fill any gaps if there was any.
I'm not going to bash the guy for getting upset. Would've scared the bejeezus out of me, too. Not going to lie and say I might not have been prone to hysterics as well. Just ask my old man about the time my youngest split his head open when he was 3. I was pretty well flippin' at the sight of all that blood. Ended up not even needing stitches but I sure thought the kid was gonna bleed out. LOL! Thankfully, since then I've learned a lot about handling "the worst". My instincts are still to flip but I WILL stop and get that under control because anything other than calm, rational, and controlled will be counterproductive.
I seriously do NOT think I would've let the rest of my vacation be "ruined". And I KNOW I wouldn't have asked for a full refund then taken to the interwebs to start a campaign because I didn't get my way. If it bothered me that much I just wouldn't sail with DCL again.
I'm a firm believer in the opportunity to learn whenever possible. Maybe Disney would consider training their youth programming cast, at least managers or senior cast members, in how to handle hysterical people. You have to talk to them and keep their brains focused. If they escalate you have to use tone & verbage to command calmness so they'll follow. Instead of hysterical people running thru the ship someone should pull the parents aside, sit them down, explain that things are taking place, tell them what the next step is, educate them on what to expect, keep them focused on solutions and work together with the cast to get thru the situation. Really, what this guy did...the running about flipping out...was probably the WORST thing he could've done for himself, his wife, and their "missing" child (who wasn't actually missing at all).
EOD K9
Well-Known Member
Three long blasts of a ship's horn is "man overboard". That being said, if you pay attention, you'd know that somone went into the drink. In this case I don't mean you, I mean the general public. So, the radio alone thing would not keep it quiet in conjuction with the horns.
Gabe1
Ivory Tower Squabble EST 2011. WINDMILL SURVIVOR
Dear old Dad probably was likely not concerned about a tech lesson. From what I'm taking from this whole story is Disney had custody of the kid and when the Dad came the back for the kid, they could not turn over said kid, sobbing Mom, freaking out Dad and still no answers as to where kid is, doesn't scream reliable child care. Just cause they eventually located the kid doesn't say the CMs were keeping an eye on the kids in their custody.
sweetpee_1993
Well-Known Member
The kid was asleep under a stack of chairs inside the club he was supposed to be in. He never left. The kid was asleep in a very odd location within the club. Again, I understand this is a 3 yro but Mom & Dad made the call to put him in a facility that accommodates 3-12 yro's. What goes on there, the offerings, the style of the supervision (if you will) are not secret or a mystery. These are things a parent assesses during Open House before deciding to leave their children there. There are numerous counselors interacting with all the children but its not like day care. It's not school. The kids can participate with activities in the group or play independently within the safety of the club. If this child needed constant eyes on him even in a safe, secure, enclosed group venue that is NOT strictly 100% organized group activities perhaps the nursery or private supervision would've been better choices for them.
It was a strange situation all the way around. How common is it for kids in the club to crawl into such a strange place then go to sleep? In situations like this its hard to really know what to think because we definitely have only heard one side of the story.
The fact that the kid was found exactly where he should have been alive and unharmed says to me that the CMs did exactly what was required of them. Had this guy kept his head they probably would have found the kid in 5 minutes.
My middle daughter Zoie went missing at a Chuck E Cheese when she was about 5. I did not go around screaming and threatening employees. I kept my head and used my brain. Even with the limited security Chuck E Cheese has I knew she was most likely in the building. I showed the people at the door a picture and sent her older sister through all of the tunnels they have. She found her asleep in one of them.
Zoie did something similar again a few years later at the Y during summer camp. I would always pick them up in the gym and one day she was nowhere to be found. Again, probability said she was there. We stayed calm and found her asleep behind the bleachers in about 10 minutes.
Did the guy have the right to be a little upset? Sure. Did he overreact and make the situation worse? Absolutely.
gwhb75
Well-Known Member
I get that it's stressful when you can't find your kid in any situation, but at the end of the day, the child was in the place he was dropped off. I'm not sure what more the father wanted. If he was expecting one on one supervision for his child, I believe he could have arranged for in-room care. The son was checked into a kids club where the CMs are responsible for all the kids in there, and he was still there when the night was over. It sucks that the wristband thing didn't work properly, but technology does fail some times (although I get his mind going to the worst case scenarios when that happened). While I understand being upset at the time, you would think that reflecting on it after the fact would have lead to a bit more clarity on the dad's part.
sweetpee_1993
Well-Known Member
Exactly.
Yep. Kids will find hiding spots when they want to. I can't tell ya the number of crazy places I never would've thought of that I found a giggling little boy waiting to surprise me. The kid crawled into a fun little hiding spot and went to sleep. Dad & a counselor walked room to room a few times looking and calling the kid's name. An organized, more thorough search (what if the kid was hiding thinking it was a fun game & was ignoring the calls of his name???) would've been a logical next step but the dad didn't stick around for any of that. He flew off the deep end. Aaaaand, that continues with out of proportion monetary requests as well as a fun little blog campaign when the bucks weren't coughed up. Disney doesn't owe this guy anything. It was a scary event, nobody's fault, that was certainly NOT the fault of Disney. Kids do weird, sometimes scary stuff. That's life with kids. Is this guy going to run around pointing fingers, assigning blame and demanding financial retribution every time his kid does something upsetting or scary? Wow. Maybe he should get a bubble, hire a crew of caretakers to hover over his kid 24/7, and retain a good attorney now so he'll be prepared for parenthood.
Cannot agree with this more. He continued the train wreck, mountain-out-of-a-mole-hill when he carried on and on about it for the rest of his vacation and beyond.
sweetpee_1993
Well-Known Member
Exactly. Scary stuff is gonna happen. Welcome to parenthood. You have to put it behind you and get on with life.
Gabe1
Ivory Tower Squabble EST 2011. WINDMILL SURVIVOR
Yes, but you had custody of Zoie, so you misplaced your own child, Chuck E. Cheese does not take custody of children from their guests, very different type of establishment. You have a different comfort level than I did when my children were small. I watched them, I expected their daycare center to watch them and payed dearly for that service and yes I would have freaked after work if child care center couldn't locate my kid for a good chunk of time.
I would expect the CMs to physically watch the children just not band and corral children, it is a care center not a kennel, in my world Disney should be watching the children. Any child could choke, have an asthma attack etc. With the chip and kennel approach they have no idea about the well being of individual children.
Then you expect too much. You are tying to get a Ferrari and a Hyundai dealer. The only way what you expect is even possible is one on one child care. If that is what you want, do not let your child go to a place that does not provide that.
jaklgreen
Well-Known Member
I have taken my kids on the Disney Cruise several times and they visit the kids club often. The place is big. Anyone who has checked their kids in there know there is almost a zero chance of a kids leaving on their own. Every time I went to pick up my kids, my ID was checked and then they had to buzz open the gate to let me in and as we were leaving they checked my ID again along with my childs, and then they open the gate for you to go out. The only way for the gates to open either coming in or going out is for the cast member to open them at their computer station. There have been several times that it took a while for me to find my kids, as I said the place is big and there are a lot of seperate rooms and play tunnels etc. for them to hide in, and it took me a while to find them. One time I could not find my child and had a cast member look them up in the computer which said that they had not left and were playing in a certain section, so I know that panic you feel. I think if I went thru all of what this family went thru I am pretty sure I would just be thankful that my child had been safe and where they were supposed to be the whole time. And next time I probably would have taken more care into looking for my child more thoroughly. It is a shame that the wristband did not work, that would have made me a bit mad.
flynnibus
Premium Member
Sorry - this is a GROSS exaggeration of what actually happens in the clubs. They do not throw them in the back room and just pull them out as needed. There are CM lead activities going on nearly all the time where the CMs are there with your children.
The difference is the children are offered INDEPENDENCE and are free to do activities away from the CM lead activities and the CMs are interacting and overseeing the children during those times too.
It's just not a 'CM #1 is responsible for child #ABC at all times'. They are free to move around the club and chose what they want to participate in. The children are not unsupervised - they simply aren't 1 to 1 attached to a particular handler.