Mickey and Minnie’s Runaway Railway - Disneyland

[mickEblu]

No, the failure of Epcot was never its leanings towards edutainment.
The ball was dropped when they decided to never innovate their attractions until decades later. Nothing received an update to keep it fresh.
Horizons with 2017's technology would be amazing
Journey Into Imagination is the perfect fit for a new trackless attraction
UOE sat stagnant for FAR too long
etc. etc. etc.

Also too, you have to factor in the "dumbing down" of society. People no longer want to go to the parks to have to think. They want to see this or that character, hear this or that song, buy this or that merchandise, and be on their way, posting the whole thing to Instagram.

Sorry, this really isn't the thread for an Epcot rant.

Right, the attention spans are not there and that's why I think edutainment doesn't work anymore. We have google now. Lol.

I think you mentioning that the attractions need to be updated goes back to the content. Maybe what it comes down to is edutainment based attractions need to be updated far more frequently? POTC and HM are 15 and 13 years older than Epcot and have held up quite well without any meaningful additions. I guess having edutainment based rides full of practical effects doomed Epcot. I wonder what it would take to get them all up to modern standards and so that they could be updated frequently to stay current? (Of course that probably means they would lose a lot of the charm people love Epcot for). Im guessing that it would take a full blown EPCOT 2.0 type of effort and at that point it's obvious Disney would rather just get more IP And thrill rides in there and get a greater return on less investment.

 

[Hatbox Ghostbuster]

Right, the attention spans are not there and that's why I think edutainment doesn't work anymore. We have google now. Lol.

I think you mentioning that the attractions need to be updated goes back to the content. Maybe what it comes down to is edutainment based attractions need to be updated far more frequently? POTC and HM are 15 and 13 years older than Epcot and have held up quite well without any meaningful additions. I guess having edutainment based rides full of practical effects doomed Epcot. I wonder what it would take to get them all up to modern standards and so that they could be updated frequently to stay current? (Of course that probably means they would lose a lot of the charm people love Epcot for). Im guessing that it would take a full blown EPCOT 2.0 type of effort and at that point it's obvious Disney would rather just get more IP And thrill rides in there and get a greater return on less investment.

Disney right now is pushing ahead with all IPs. Iger's main goal is to make money. Period. He has no interest in creating things that are new and original. His entire legacy at Disney can be summed up in two letters. IP. Sure, he has brought the company lots of money. Sure he has brought valuable franchises into the Disney household. But he would stand in direct opposition to Walt Disney as what the head of the Disney company should do. Iger doesn't innovate. Iger doesn't plough new ground. Iger plays safe, with his toys in the toy box. And when he tires of his current toys, he just buys new one from other kids.

Personally, I think the longevity of HM and POTC is directly tied into the fact that they have no preexisting IP that the general public can grow tired of. Pirates and Haunted houses are perennially popular. A ride based around Frozen is only going to be as popular as the franchise is popular. It will grow stale unless you keep making Frozen films and updating the ride accordingly. That takes WAY more effort.

With edutainment, you always have to update as new information becomes available. IMO that's not that hard of a mandate to make as long as you have people in charge who respect the content and clearly Disney(Iger) does not. I agree with FigmentForever96 in that Eisner was a deathblow to the park. Epcot was not the "hip" place that he wanted it to be and he undoubtedly made it worse by making it fit into his agenda. Epcot is like the genius child in a house full of athletes whose parents wish he would just put down the books and pick up a football.

 

[mickEblu]

Epcot is like the genius child in a house full of athletes whose parents wish he would just put down the books and pick up a football.

Great analogy!

 

[Rich T]

Just an observation about my one-and-only visit to WDW and Epcot. It was in 1993, and I got to ride all the Epccot classics, including the original Journey into Imagination. I loved Epcot. I thought it was kind of weird until I figured out it was a theme park about the human race, but I loved it and visited it about four times during our stay in WDW. Couldn't get enough of Cranium Command, Journey into Imagination and Horizons.

In our group, the teens hated Epcot and left for Magic Kingdom after the 3rd edutainment omnimover. The other adults were done after one trip around the park. I, being the family park nerd and realizing I might never see it again, just kept soaking it in.

Anyway, here's my observation: It was August. Magic Kingdom was packed. MGM was packed. Epcot seemed busy, but Spaceship Earth had the only waiting line. Horizons, Motion, and Imagination were walk-ons--During all four of my visits. I know part of this is because they were omnimovers, but when I say "Walk-On," I mean walking into the attraction along the queue all the way to the boarding zone and not seeing any other guests in front or behind anywhere. I'm talking sitting in a vehicle seeing nothing but empty seats in front and behind.

Make of that what you will, but--as much as I loved my time at Epcot--I can understand why change was needed. But, so far, none of the changes have made me want to return. Everything I enjoyed most at Epcot is gone.

 

[Hatbox Ghostbuster]

Just an observation about my one-and-only visit to WDW and Epcot. It was in 1993, and I got to ride all the Epccot classics, including the original Journey into Imagination. I loved Epcot. I thought it was kind of weird until I figured out it was a theme park about the human race, but I loved it and visited it about four times during our stay in WDW. Couldn't get enough of Cranium Command, Journey into Imagination and Horizons.

In our group, the teens hated Epcot and left for Magic Kingdom after the 3rd edutainment omnimover. The other adults were done after one trip around the park. I, being the family park nerd and realizing I might never see it again, just kept soaking it in.

Anyway, here's my observation: It was August. Magic Kingdom was packed. MGM was packed. Epcot seemed busy, but Spaceship Earth had the only waiting line. Horizons, Motion, and Imagination were walk-ons--During all four of my visits. I know part of this is because they were omnimovers, but when I say "Walk-On," I mean walking into the attraction along the queue all the way to the boarding zone and not seeing any other guests in front or behind anywhere. I'm talking sitting in a vehicle seeing nothing but empty seats in front and behind.

Make of that what you will, but--as much as I loved my time at Epcot--I can understand why change was needed. But, so far, none of the changes have made me want to return. Everything I enjoyed most at Epcot is gone.

My time at Epcot was approx 1990-1994 (the classics era)
Even as a kid, you couldn't keep me off SSE, Horizons, JII, our out of shows like CC, KK...not to mention ALL of WS.
Sometimes I think people forget about WS when talking about Epcot. Sure, its a festival boozer now, but I enjoyed the heck out of it. Illuminations?? Come on! That was the best.

I returned to Epcot finally in 2012 and found it a much different place. SSE, UOE, and WS were about all I wanted to do. I'm also glad I rode Maelstrom a few times since it was unknowingly my last time.

 

[Pixieish]

Just an observation about my one-and-only visit to WDW and Epcot. It was in 1993, and I got to ride all the Epccot classics, including the original Journey into Imagination. I loved Epcot. I thought it was kind of weird until I figured out it was a theme park about the human race, but I loved it and visited it about four times during our stay in WDW. Couldn't get enough of Cranium Command, Journey into Imagination and Horizons.

In our group, the teens hated Epcot and left for Magic Kingdom after the 3rd edutainment omnimover. The other adults were done after one trip around the park. I, being the family park nerd and realizing I might never see it again, just kept soaking it in.

Anyway, here's my observation: It was August. Magic Kingdom was packed. MGM was packed. Epcot seemed busy, but Spaceship Earth had the only waiting line. Horizons, Motion, and Imagination were walk-ons--During all four of my visits. I know part of this is because they were omnimovers, but when I say "Walk-On," I mean walking into the attraction along the queue all the way to the boarding zone and not seeing any other guests in front or behind anywhere. I'm talking sitting in a vehicle seeing nothing but empty seats in front and behind.

Make of that what you will, but--as much as I loved my time at Epcot--I can understand why change was needed. But, so far, none of the changes have made me want to return. Everything I enjoyed most at Epcot is gone.

Especially Journey into Imagination and ImageWorks - two of the most inspiring things I'd even seen in my life (at 15 years old). I've seen some amazingly inspiring things since then, but nothing that spoke to kids the way the original Imagination did.

 

[Rich T]

Epcot is like the genius child in a house full of athletes whose parents wish he would just put down the books and pick up a football.

(Foghorn Leghorn voice): "I say, I say, there's somethin' kinda 'eeeeeuuuuuuugh" 'bout a park that don't play football."

 

[nevol]

This is just a hunch, but they may use the trolley barn, the Gag Factory and even the nearby interactive stuff for this ride, as well as some backstage areas. What exactly is back there anyway? It can't be so important that it's unmovable, can it?

My guess is that they will retain the neighborhood area somehow while Roger Rabbit will unfortunately be nixed. I say "unfortunate" because it's a great ride, but on the other hand, it is based on a property that is relatively past its prime, so I would imagine that's what they would go after. And let's be honest, would they really use the expansion pad for anything other than Star Wars?

Like I said, however, this is just a hunch.

Sorry I'm pages behind. I would love to see MMRR join Roger back there, back stage as you mentioned, or where the fantasyland theater is with access through toontown. I don't see the point in removing RR though because the point of having new attractions is to expand park capacity. RR is still on fastpass and still pulling 45 minute waits all the time. I've never understood why, but it is extremely popular. Arrendale or Beast Village can go southeast of small world in the motorboat cruise area whenever they decide it is time to rework the monorail tracks and tomorrowland.

 

[SuddenStorm]

I've never understood why, but it is extremely popular.

I'm right there with ya, the ride is always an afterthought for me, and while I enjoy it, would never wait 45 minutes for it.

 

[nevol]

The funny thing is, Roger Rabbit is pretty popular, too, if its wait times of 30-45 minutes and its Fastpass availability are any indication. It would be cool if the whole Toontown area was covered. It would certainly solve a lot of problems, and not just fireworks either. Sadly, though, I have a feeling that it's just wishful thinking.

The heat, the fallout, the aged paint from the direct sunlight. it would actually enhance the land by offering cartoony lighting, gradient opportunities, whereas in almost any other instance, enclosing a land would be a disaster. I fully agree. I was of the "remove Toontown" camp forever, but if MMRR isn't going to dca, then what better location is there than toontown?

 

[Deleted member 107043]

Also too, you have to factor in the "dumbing down" of society. People no longer want to go to the parks to have to think. They want to see this or that character, hear this or that song, buy this or that merchandise, and be on their way, posting the whole thing to Instagram.

I think you're being a little too harsh. I'm old enough to remember rides like Mission to Mars, Adventure Thru Inner Space and The Submarine Voyage. Each of those attractions were ambitious and presented a mix of entertainment with science education in a clever way, but even in their heyday they were beyond hokey and were never as popular with guests as Pirates, The Matterhorn Bobsleds, or Space Mountain. The shift to Studio IP hasn't happened because society has been dumbed down, it's because no one was ever going to Disneyland to learn about Mars, the latest kitchen appliances from General Electric, or frozen water molecules inside a snowflake.

 

[FigmentForver96]

I think you're being a little too harsh. I'm old enough to remember rides like Mission to Mars, Adventure Thru Inner Space and The Submarine Voyage. Each of those attractions were ambitious and presented a mix of entertainment with science education in a clever way, but even in their heyday they were beyond hokey and were never as popular with guests as Pirates, The Matterhorn Bobsleds, or Space Mountain. The shift to Studio IP hasn't happened because society has been dumbed down, it's because no one was ever going to Disneyland to learn about Mars, the latest kitchen appliances from General Electric, or frozen water molecules inside a snowflake.

Guest went to be wowed and see something they never have before. Those rides were just as popular.

 

[SuddenStorm]

Those rides were just as popular.

If that were true, they'd still be operating.

 

[Disney Irish]

I think you're being a little too harsh. I'm old enough to remember rides like Mission to Mars, Adventure Thru Inner Space and The Submarine Voyage. Each of those attractions were ambitious and presented a mix of entertainment with science education in a clever way, but even in their heyday they were beyond hokey and were never as popular with guests as Pirates, The Matterhorn Bobsleds, or Space Mountain. The shift to Studio IP hasn't happened because society has been dumbed down, it's because no one was ever going to Disneyland to learn about Mars, the latest kitchen appliances from General Electric, or frozen water molecules inside a snowflake.

Agreed, although I do believe we as a society have become too selfish again. Post-2000 its become all about "ME" and not how can we help our fellow man. We've been here before, so hopefully its just a cycle. I have a feeling we're getting to a tipping point where it will change again. And we'll have this generations "ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country" moment.

 

[Pixieish]

Agreed, although I do believe we as a society have become too selfish again. Post-2000 its become all about "ME" and not how can we help our fellow man. We've been here before, so hopefully its just a cycle. I have a feeling we're getting to a tipping point where it will change again. And we'll have this generations "ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country" moment.

AMEN. I certainly hope you're right. I can't take much more of this "ME ME ME" junk.

 

[mharrington]

Sorry I'm pages behind. I would love to see MMRR join Roger back there, back stage as you mentioned, or where the fantasyland theater is with access through toontown. I don't see the point in removing RR though because the point of having new attractions is to expand park capacity. RR is still on fastpass and still pulling 45 minute waits all the time. I've never understood why, but it is extremely popular.

As I said before, I think it will replace Roger, not compliment it. It has the same issue that the original Tower of Terror did: namely, it is based on a property not entirely owned by Disney.

 

[FigmentForver96]

If that were true, they'd still be operating.

No because they were rides that needed updates. They were popular in the day and as it went on and the information changed they could have been updated but they didn't do it. Rides aren't just shut down and replaced because they aren't popular. If that's the case, Tower of Terror in DCA would have never left.

 

[SuddenStorm]

No because they were rides that needed updates. They were popular in the day and as it went on and the information changed they could have been updated but they didn't do it. Rides aren't just shut down and replaced because they aren't popular. If that's the case, Tower of Terror in DCA would have never left.

Then the argument is made that ATIS and Mission to Mars were as popular as Tower of Terror. But claiming these rides were as popular as Pirates, Matterhorn, or Space Mountain- legendary rides that Disney actually chooses to update is a bit ridiculous.

 

[dweezil78]

No, the failure of Epcot was never its leanings towards edutainment.

Also too, you have to factor in the "dumbing down" of society. People no longer want to go to the parks to have to think. They want to see this or that character, hear this or that song, buy this or that merchandise, and be on their way, posting the whole thing to Instagram.

You realize you're kinda contradicting yourself here, right?

 

[Phroobar]

You realize you're kinda contradicting yourself here, right?

I think he is saying that it's not Epcot's edutainment approach that failed. It was the stupid tourists that didn't want to be educated in the first place. The school systems in this country suck the love of learning out of person. It's a difficult thing to get back into.