Micheal Eisner...

TwilightZone

Well-Known Member
Under Iger allot of popular attractions went down as well or are diying and the changes are appalling. Besides the new attractions coming in these changes are a bit off the trail for me in some cases.
all rides that closed or are dying were past their prime for the most part:
  • sounds dangerous starred a comedian who was no longer popular as he once was
  • american idol was cancelled
  • camp minnie mickey was always meant to be temporary
  • dca's tot wasn't nearly as good as wdw's
  • ellen was only good for naps
  • great movie ride was declining in popularity
  • the animation lessons you can now learn on youtube
  • DCA 1.0 was super ultra unpopular (I grew up in that era, we only went to it at night because there was literally only 4 attractions worth enjoying at the time)
  • and of course, stitch is terrible
 

2351metalcloud

Active Member
He also destroyed Disney's cash machine. Eiser was responsible for pushing Disney movies into the homes and out of the theaters. Prior to Eiser if you wanted to see Snow White you waited the 7 or so years until Disney pushed it out to the theaters again or didn't see it at all. Eiser pushed all the movies out to make a fast buck, and while it has continued to serve them well as technology went from VHS to DVD to BluRay with each iteration given Disney the ability to resell the same movies over and over, the reality is when the movie gets to a format that doesn't require upgrading you don't get to make as much off the movie as before because there will be enough discs of the movie in circulation that it doesn't demand the same premium as before. It was only by luck that technology kept changing or the money Disney pulled in from classic movies would have pretty much dried up 20 years ago. Eiser was the poster boy for quick buck at the expense of long-term revenue.

Disney likely got a greater portion of the revenue of each vhs, dvd, or bluray disc sold than the portion of the revenue they got from each ticket sold for a movie brought back into theaters. At least this is usually the case with revenue for movies released on disc vs revenue received ticket sales.
 

thomas998

Well-Known Member
Disney likely got a greater portion of the revenue of each vhs, dvd, or bluray disc sold than the portion of the revenue they got from each ticket sold for a movie brought back into theaters. At least this is usually the case with revenue for movies released on disc vs revenue received ticket sales.
Nope.... The general breakdown in the 80's when Eisner was putting his evil plan in place was a distributor got 70% of the box office receipts the first 2 weeks of a film release. Now a ticket was only $4 dollars back then so about $2.80 per ticket, but then a family of 4 goes to the theater and its $11.20 to Disney. While a VHS movie would net companies 30% profit, and on a $20VHS that is only $6 per movie and the family of 4 doesn't need to buy 4 movies just 1 so the number say that Disney would be better off with movies in the long-run.

While my number are just based on generalization of how it was, my belief that Eisner gave up money for a short term pop was based on a friend I went to graduate school with, he previously worked for Disney and I recall when the case study on Disney came up in class he unloaded on the stupidity of what Eisner had done. Apparently he was in the group that ran the number and it was clear to everyone that Eisner was just going for a short-term windfall. You'll notice that when Eisner released the movie that he pretty much dumped them all on the market at once to maximize the short term impact. The current management has gone back to a marketing plan more like the original where they release old movies for a limited time before supposedly putting them back in the vault... Not a perfect method of replicating the past but there is no way they could ever return to the original method now that so many millions of their movies are floating around the world on DVDs.
 

Disone

Well-Known Member
I had a chance to have a conversation with Roy Disney a bit before he passed away. He was on a DVC Member cruise and started a conversation with me in the Cove. Just me and him. I was a bit shocked that he was just there by himself.

After a moment of “what the heck”, I thanked him for bringing Eisner in, and then taking him out. He seemed to enjoy that summary.

I think the reality is that Eisner and Wells were a great team. Eisner by himself not so good.

Iger has positioned the company for the next 59 years. I don’t love everything that he does, but he made some truly genius moves with the company. Look at what WDW has working now with new rides and tons of new infrastructure. It takes years to get that stuff moving.

It’s easy to throw shade from behind a keyboard.

Well, I was going to contribute This Thread but after reading this post there's really nothing I can add :)

This. Totally this.
 

slappy magoo

Well-Known Member
Nope.... The general breakdown in the 80's when Eisner was putting his evil plan in place was a distributor got 70% of the box office receipts the first 2 weeks of a film release. Now a ticket was only $4 dollars back then so about $2.80 per ticket, but then a family of 4 goes to the theater and its $11.20 to Disney. While a VHS movie would net companies 30% profit, and on a $20VHS that is only $6 per movie and the family of 4 doesn't need to buy 4 movies just 1 so the number say that Disney would be better off with movies in the long-run.
Your argument fails to take into consideration a good many things
1: "Now a ticket was only $4 dollars back then" "then" being the 1980s
The average movie ticket went from $2.69 in 1980 to $4 in 1989. In 1985 average ticket was $3.55. I honestly don't know if studios made 30% off each VHS tape as you attest, but since you were wrong about ticket prices, we have to acknowledge, it's a possibility, so your assumptions about how much they were making off movie tickets versus tapes could be way off. Especially since...

2: Disney like many other studios started cross-marketing their VHS tapes with other products - most famously the non Disney Top Gun having a Diet Pepsi commercial that "premiered" on the tape and helped to let the tape be sold at a price affordable to consumers verus a rental price of 80-100 bucks. The Disney tapes would have coupons for paper towels or McDonald's or cereal or any kind of product. Disney made money synergizing their classics with those companies, which increased the profitability of the video release.

3: As you wrote, "a distributor got 70% of the box office receipts the first 2 weeks of a film release," but then there was a sliding scale of how the money got split, and if a movie were in theaters long enough, that became more of a 50-50 split (studios nowadays make a much bigger cut during the first few weeks than 70%, and movies don't usually last long enough in theaters anyway, which is one of the main reasons why your popcorn and soda is over $10, that's the only way the theaters make a profit because so much more of the ticket price goes to studios). As a result, after 4 weeks in 1985, Disney was only getting $1.77 of a $3.55 ticket, whether it was a new movie or a re-release.

4: As multiplexes exploded in malls across America, major studios started producing more content to fill those theaters, so there was less of a guarantee a re-release would make money when so many more new movies were coming down the pike. Maybe you'd rather take your kids to the new Spielberg flick than a re-release you saw last time it was re-released. And as I wrote earlier, this included Disney's own new-at-the-time movies. Would Disney want a new flick to flop because people went to see a re-release of Bambi? Or vice versa? But hey one way to solve that problem...

5: VHS tapes were a great way to promote NEW Disney cartoons coming to theaters, usually a captive audience, because not everyone fast-forwarded past the trailers, especially when the VHS was first played. I remember trying to fastforward a trailer on a tape only to have my nieces tell me no, they loved those trailers as much as the movie. And that instant love meant they HAD to see the movie when it came to the theaters, no waiting for VHS...though of course they had to have the VHS too.

6: not everyone takes their kids to a movie, even a Disney re-release of a classic. Maybe the kids are too young, maybe too rambunctious, maybe they get scared in a dark theater, VHS prices seemed like a value because the kids could see the movie an infinite amount of times.

7: the shift to home video still worked nicely with the moratorium that is aka "The Disney vault." Instead of a theatrical re-release, movies were released and then pulled from home video. People with babies would buy Disney movies because by the time Junior was old enough to watch it, it might not available any more! I remember working for a video rental store for a time. They had unopened OOP "vaulted" Disney movies they would sell for a Franklin and a few got bought. And when Movie X was back on video "for a limited time," new parents would jump on the chance to buy it for their kids. Or if your copy wore out, you'd buy it again, especially if it had been (booming voice here) DIGITALLY REMASTERRRRRRRRRED!

So for parents on a tighter budget, home video made more sense as kids could rewatch the movie, and if Disney took a little hit for the price of the tape compared to the price of a theatrical re-release it was compensated by the cross-promotion they'd arrange with other products having ad time on the tape or coupons/fliers in the box. For parents with a little more money, you took the kids to the new movies in theaters, bought the classics on VHS to keep. And clearly, the money rolled into Disney like crazy.

Other than that, your analysis is quite valid.
 
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EricsBiscuit

Well-Known Member
Eisner saved Disney from the "what would Walt do?" Mentality. Card and Ron were both bad for the company. They didn't allow the movie division and Disney's other assets to shine.
 

Walt Disney1955

Well-Known Member
Is there any reason why the Disney family doesn't still own a lot of stock or at least help run things? Roy Disney Jr. seemed to be the last person that had a say in things as neither of the grandchildren seem to have wanted to do anything.
 

Goofyernmost

Well-Known Member
Is there any reason why the Disney family doesn't still own a lot of stock or at least help run things? Roy Disney Jr. seemed to be the last person that had a say in things as neither of the grandchildren seem to have wanted to do anything.
Walt's immediate family are all gone now. The remaining family members have no knowledge or exposure to the business and I think it has been a long time since they had even close to a controlling interest. They wouldn't know how to deal with the company the size it is now. They just took the buy-out and went their way. I'm not sure that they even hold a single share anymore.
 

thomas998

Well-Known Member
Your argument fails to take into consideration a good many things
1: "Now a ticket was only $4 dollars back then" "then" being the 1980s
The average movie ticket went from $2.69 in 1980 to $4 in 1989. In 1985 average ticket was $3.55. I honestly don't know if studios made 30% off each VHS tape as you attest, but since you were wrong about ticket prices, we have to acknowledge, it's a possibility, so your assumptions about how much they were making off movie tickets versus tapes could be way off. Especially since...

2: Disney like many other studios started cross-marketing their VHS tapes with other products - most famously the non Disney Top Gun having a Diet Pepsi commercial that "premiered" on the tape and helped to let the tape be sold at a price affordable to consumers verus a rental price of 80-100 bucks. The Disney tapes would have coupons for paper towels or McDonald's or cereal or any kind of product. Disney made money synergizing their classics with those companies, which increased the profitability of the video release.

3: As you wrote, "a distributor got 70% of the box office receipts the first 2 weeks of a film release," but then there was a sliding scale of how the money got split, and if a movie were in theaters long enough, that became more of a 50-50 split (studios nowadays make a much bigger cut during the first few weeks than 70%, and movies don't usually last long enough in theaters anyway, which is one of the main reasons why your popcorn and soda is over $10, that's the only way the theaters make a profit because so much more of the ticket price goes to studios). As a result, after 4 weeks in 1985, Disney was only getting $1.77 of a $3.55 ticket, whether it was a new movie or a re-release.

4: As multiplexes exploded in malls across America, major studios started producing more content to fill those theaters, so there was less of a guarantee a re-release would make money when so many more new movies were coming down the pike. Maybe you'd rather take your kids to the new Spielberg flick than a re-release you saw last time it was re-released. And as I wrote earlier, this included Disney's own new-at-the-time movies. Would Disney want a new flick to flop because people went to see a re-release of Bambi? Or vice versa? But hey one way to solve that problem...

5: VHS tapes were a great way to promote NEW Disney cartoons coming to theaters, usually a captive audience, because not everyone fast-forwarded past the trailers, especially when the VHS was first played. I remember trying to fastforward a trailer on a tape only to have my nieces tell me no, they loved those trailers as much as the movie. And that instant love meant they HAD to see the movie when it came to the theaters, no waiting for VHS...though of course they had to have the VHS too.

6: not everyone takes their kids to a movie, even a Disney re-release of a classic. Maybe the kids are too young, maybe too rambunctious, maybe they get scared in a dark theater, VHS prices seemed like a value because the kids could see the movie an infinite amount of times.

7: the shift to home video still worked nicely with the moratorium that is aka "The Disney vault." Instead of a theatrical re-release, movies were released and then pulled from home video. People with babies would buy Disney movies because by the time Junior was old enough to watch it, it might not available any more! I remember working for a video rental store for a time. They had unopened OOP "vaulted" Disney movies they would sell for a Franklin and a few got bought. And when Movie X was back on video "for a limited time," new parents would jump on the chance to buy it for their kids. Or if your copy wore out, you'd buy it again, especially if it had been (booming voice here) DIGITALLY REMASTERRRRRRRRRED!

So for parents on a tighter budget, home video made more sense as kids could rewatch the movie, and if Disney took a little hit for the price of the tape compared to the price of a theatrical re-release it was compensated by the cross-promotion they'd arrange with other products having ad time on the tape or coupons/fliers in the box. For parents with a little more money, you took the kids to the new movies in theaters, bought the classics on VHS to keep. And clearly, the money rolled into Disney like crazy.

Other than that, your analysis is quite valid.
 

thomas998

Well-Known Member
Well considering Eisner didn't take over Disney until 1984, and didn't put his plan into action until the later part of the 80's. I'm not sure what the price of movie ticket in 1980 has to do with anything. I know you appear to have put a lot of work into trying to find fault in my number, even making up some random stuff about coupons in VHS tapes, which I'm still not sure about.

But since you want to get into to specific detail, Disney's initial foray into VHS was for rental only. It was only in later in the 80's that they went home sales. I'm sure if you ferret out the exact time you'll find it was around the time Disney created Buena Vista Home in 1987. You'll also find the ticket prices in that part of the 80's are pretty much $4.... The only number I gave as a real guess was the cost of a VHS back then because I really can't remember buying many at that time. As for the profit margins they were generally 20-30 percent but I gave Disney the benefit of the doubt and went for the high side 30 percent.

I would breakdown the other mistakes in your logic but frankly it's time for breakfast and I would rather eat than try and point out your mistakes.
 

slappy magoo

Well-Known Member
I know you appear to have put a lot of work into trying to find fault in my number, even making up some random stuff about coupons in VHS tapes, which I'm still not sure about.

I see...you know I'm wrong, you know I'm making up random stuff, but you're not sure about the stuff I'm supposedly making up and how can one possibly determine if things are right or wrong on the internet?
Here's a Bambi/Crest tie-in commercial from 1989. I know that was a good year for you because that's when the price of an average movie ticket was $3.99 and we can just round up and say it's $4.



Here's one from 1991, a Jungle Book/Nabisco tie-in


This was the norm, a company paid Disney money to be associated with their classic animated releases on VHS, which was profit on top of profit.

But since you want to get into to specific detail, Disney's initial foray into VHS was for rental only. It was only in later in the 80's that they went home sales.

Why did they do this? I guess because they saw a profit could be made? And subsequent re-releases proved profit could STILL continue to be made? Which kind of negates your original point?

I'm sure if you ferret out the exact time you'll find it was around the time Disney created Buena Vista Home in 1987. You'll also find the ticket prices in that part of the 80's are pretty much $4....
"Pretty much $4." Prices are a bit jumbled because Nat'l Association of Theater Owners started tracking their own ticket prices right around that time before using CPI-W as an estimate. But what makes it tricky is the fact that there was still a huge market for second and third-tier theaters at the time, theaters whose movies were a few months older but prices much cheaper, but has to be factored in the average. Home video is one of the reasons those theaters went bye-bye but they were still common at the time.

The only number I gave as a real guess was the cost of a VHS back then because I really can't remember buying many at that time. As for the profit margins they were generally 20-30 percent but I gave Disney the benefit of the doubt and went for the high side 30 percent.

It is kind of funny that you question my opinions, then admit many of your facts are assumptions and guesses.

Whatever. Once the other studios stopped fighting their movies being purchased by rental stores because more money could be made selling to them then selling a piddling few copies to consumers, most movies were still sold at a high price, too much for most consumers. Rental outlets could buy with a discount in bulk, which is why chain rental outlets choked out the mom and pops because the mom and pops might buy a couple of a small title, a dozen or more for a big movie maybe, but the chains bought tens of thousands of copies. The high priced-for-rental cost would eventually drop to a more consumer friendly price, usually around the time those titles would show up on premium cable like Showtime or HBO. And if there was still a lot of quantity around, the price might drop again and again.

But for big movies, where the studios assumed there would be a demand for purchase, they'd sell them at an initial affordable price, often with cross promotion with other products or retailers. Arguably one of the first to do this is Star Trek II, and even that was at a $40 initial price not the subsequent $20-25 MSRP most title saw. It really wasn't until the explosion of DVD (followed by the accessibility of streaming and the crumbling of the video rental store) that the idea that EVERY movie could be released at a sell though price and make money became standard.



I would breakdown the other mistakes in your logic but frankly it's time for breakfast and I would rather eat than try and point out your mistakes.
Oh please, do make the time.
 

thomas998

Well-Known Member
I see...you know I'm wrong, you know I'm making up random stuff, but you're not sure about the stuff I'm supposedly making up and how can one possibly determine if things are right or wrong on the internet?
Here's a Bambi/Crest tie-in commercial from 1989. I know that was a good year for you because that's when the price of an average movie ticket was $3.99 and we can just round up and say it's $4.



Here's one from 1991, a Jungle Book/Nabisco tie-in


This was the norm, a company paid Disney money to be associated with their classic animated releases on VHS, which was profit on top of profit.



Why did they do this? I guess because they saw a profit could be made? And subsequent re-releases proved profit could STILL continue to be made? Which kind of negates your original point?


"Pretty much $4." Prices are a bit jumbled because Nat'l Association of Theater Owners started tracking their own ticket prices right around that time before using CPI-W as an estimate. But what makes it tricky is the fact that there was still a huge market for second and third-tier theaters at the time, theaters whose movies were a few months older but prices much cheaper, but has to be factored in the average. Home video is one of the reasons those theaters went bye-bye but they were still common at the time.



It is kind of funny that you question my opinions, then admit many of your facts are assumptions and guesses.

Whatever. Once the other studios stopped fighting their movies being purchased by rental stores because more money could be made selling to them then selling a piddling few copies to consumers, most movies were still sold at a high price, too much for most consumers. Rental outlets could buy with a discount in bulk, which is why chain rental outlets choked out the mom and pops because the mom and pops might buy a couple of a small title, a dozen or more for a big movie maybe, but the chains bought tens of thousands of copies. The high priced-for-rental cost would eventually drop to a more consumer friendly price, usually around the time those titles would show up on premium cable like Showtime or HBO. And if there was still a lot of quantity around, the price might drop again and again.

But for big movies, where the studios assumed there would be a demand for purchase, they'd sell them at an initial affordable price, often with cross promotion with other products or retailers. Arguably one of the first to do this is Star Trek II, and even that was at a $40 initial price not the subsequent $20-25 MSRP most title saw. It really wasn't until the explosion of DVD (followed by the accessibility of streaming and the crumbling of the video rental store) that the idea that EVERY movie could be released at a sell though price and make money became standard.




Oh please, do make the time.


Disney received money from the company that offset marketing costs. My 30% number included zero market it was the margin on a VHS tape after the cost of manufacturing the tape. So if you want to get nit picky Disney likely made less than that because they did have to market those tapes more than they would have to today.

As for 3.99 being the average price... In 87 it was 3.91, 88 it was 4.11 and 89 it was 3.99 the average is 4.01 so we can round down....

Now when you get into prices, I do hope you realize that a video priced at $20 dollars didn't get sold by Disney at the start of the product chain at $20, it was a fraction of that which is why you have a 30% margin... Frankly I doubt you have a willingness to look at reality as you seem pretty desperate to prove your man Eisner didn't have a fire sale to prop up the number on his watch. I don't know maybe you have a crush on him or something. So honestly believe what you want, pull number out of thin air for all I care. Before I ever spoke with anyone that worked for Eisner I thought he had done a good job with Disney it was only after long talks with someone that was running numbers for him that I realized he wasn't doing as much for Disney as he was for his own wealth by making sure he hit target that maximized his yearly bonuses.
 

smile

Well-Known Member
Eisner saved Disney from the "what would Walt do?" Mentality.

which was also the beginning of "Walt who?"


Card and Ron were both bad for the company. They didn't allow the movie division and Disney's other assets to shine.

from a perspective - from another perspective they had the guts and vision to not only pursue Epcot Center, but to actually get it open - and have it be as glorious as it was

i don't blame them for altering the initial attention, as we have yet to see anyone (esp within TWDC) who could've fit those shoes
 

slappy magoo

Well-Known Member
Frankly I doubt you have a willingness to look at reality as you seem pretty desperate to prove your man Eisner didn't have a fire sale to prop up the number on his watch.
All I'm saying - admittedly with many words - is that switching the animated classics to video wasn't a "fire sale," it provided and continues to provide a steady stream of cash into Disney, and keeping the "animated classics" to a every-7-to-10-year theatrical re-release schedule was not sustainable. You're the one who seems bent out of shape that you're not restricted to only seeing these movies on the big screen, once a decade, assuming it'll play in your area.
 

EricsBiscuit

Well-Known Member
which was also the beginning of "Walt who?"




from a perspective - from another perspective they had the guts and vision to not only pursue Epcot Center, but to actually get it open - and have it be as glorious as it was

i don't blame them for altering the initial attention, as we have yet to see anyone (esp within TWDC) who could've fit those shoes
And that's another perspective. I have an unpopular opinion on Epcot, it was outdated the day it opened. The concept of a World Fair was outdated. I like the park but that's a topic for another day. Pre 1989 Eisner was the best CEO Disney has had other than Walt. That 5 year stretch was great for the company. Raising prices may not be popular but it's what the company needed to grow and fend off hostile takeovers.
 

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