Meryl Streep Blasts Walt Disney at National Board of Review Dinner

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englanddg

One Little Spark...
I know what Uncle Tom did. The "Uncle Tom" term has grown into another definition for blacks. Just because its grown into another definition, it means we're totally ignorant of its origins? Uncle Tom is a character in a fictional story and it now refers to something else. Just because it refers to something else, it doesn't mean its original roots are automatically dismissed.
Uncle Tom is a story based on a real escaped slave who moved to Canada and set up his own farm where he employed other escaped slaves. He did lecture tours and wrote a book to expose the evils of the practice.

Using popular and incorrect definitions of the character doesn't excuse the ignorance of the statement itself.

(And before you jump to any conclusions, I am not calling you ignorant, just the term.)
 

englanddg

One Little Spark...
Why bring up your comment about "racists only bringing up race", then? I really don't care, england, if you think I'm a racist, then tell me, like Flynn did.
It's not the first time I have said that. If you disagree with it, please feel free to expound.

If not, I am not sure I see your point of contention.
 

Californian Elitist

Well-Known Member
It's not the first time I have said that. If you disagree with it, please feel free to expound.

If not, I am not sure I see your point of contention.

It sure isn't the first time, but you brought it up again when I came back to the this thread. Now that I'm thinking about it, in the other thread last night, you told me you didn't think I knew I what you were talking about in regards to the statement, and directed me back to this thread. Can you see why I'm taking it as a direction towards me?
 

englanddg

One Little Spark...
It sure isn't the first time, but you brought it up again when I came back to the this thread. Now that I'm thinking about it, in the other thread last night, you told me you didn't think I knew I what you were talking about in regards to the statement, and directed me back to this thread. Can you see why I'm taking it as a direction towards me?
Sure. But it isn't. I brought it up in the other thread and redirected to this one because you indicated there that you were not aware (you asked me to explain over there, remember?).

Well, I already had over here, so a link made sense.

It is a simple statement of logical reasoning. You can agree, or disagree, that is your choice. But it is not a personal attack against you.
 

Californian Elitist

Well-Known Member
Sure. But it isn't. I brought it up in the other thread and redirected to this one because you indicated there that you were not aware (you asked me to explain over there, remember?).

Well, I already had over here, so a link made sense.

It is a simple statement of logical reasoning. You can agree, or disagree, that is your choice. But it is not a personal attack against you.

Okay.
 

Gabe1

Ivory Tower Squabble EST 2011. WINDMILL SURVIVOR
Why are you so intent on beating this horse dead(er)? What are you out to prove or justify?
I think most of us here are aware of Walt's hiring practices and prejudices, even if most of them he did eventually drop. So, just what is it you're trying to do, crucify a dead man? If so, I think you've done it, but for the life of me I don't understand why.

I am confused.

Meryl brought these topics up. A thread was created to discuss the Meryl's detour speech about Walt along with 'the letter.' It would be an odd thread to discuss Splash Mountain rehab so what do you suggest we post on the thread titled: Meryl Streep Blasts Walt Disney at National Board of Review Dinner
 

Gabe1

Ivory Tower Squabble EST 2011. WINDMILL SURVIVOR
@Gabe1 The Walt Disney Family Museum is not connected to TWDC. The museum likely has been sitting on that essay for quite some time and when A List actor Meryl Streep says Walt's racist, anti-Semitic, and sexist that's a pretty good time to post it. The museum does social media better than good ole TWDC and the millions they throw at money pits like celebration place media group.

That I realized. I thought the museum was Disney as in launched by Disney family. Who does control the museum?
 

Gabe1

Ivory Tower Squabble EST 2011. WINDMILL SURVIVOR
@Gabe1


Well, unless your ideology is inherently racist.

@englanddg I just read through your posts to me and this is the last thing I read. We obviously have been educated by very different institutions. But I have never, ever, ever had any member or any person every post or say something like this before to me. I'm too numb to be hurt.
 

Wilt Dasney

Well-Known Member
My take: It's impossible to talk about history meaningfully without considering race. You might dismiss the entire idea as a human construct (as many geneticists today do), but that doesn't change the fact that the idea has mattered to a lot of people in ways that have dramatically shaped the world we live in.

As a counterexample, money is also a human construct. A metallurgist would tell you coins have no inherent value the same way a geneticist would tell you there's no such thing as race, but knowing that doesn't wipe away all the wars ever fought over gold. No one would ever say "money doesn't matter, unless you're a banker." We understand the concept of exchanging currency as a proxy for goods and services is something that matters, even while we're capable of understanding that it isn't objectively "real."

The impulse to say no one should be interested in race probably comes from a noble place. In a perfect world, I would sympathize with it. In the world we live in, it strikes me as a little naive at best. It certainly seems irresponsible to say that we should leave discussions of race to the racists, the same as it would be to say "the only people who need to care about murder are murderers." We might all like to live in a world where these topics don't matter, but a unilateral radio silence from the good people (which I'd like to hope all of us are) will in no way be met with the same. (If you happen to find yourself under the pleasant misapprehension that "real" racism has pretty well died out and we all basically agree on these issues, take that happy notion over to AmRen or Stormfront and bid it a sad farewell as you read through page after page of discussion about the Coming Race War which will engulf the streets of Detroit and LA in blood...hopefully more of it black and brown blood than white blood. And then recognize that these are just the "true believers.")

Once upon a time, I would have nodded my head at the idea that we should all just forget about skin color. It sounds very logical and reasonable. Over time, though, I've come to suspect that the reason that sounds like a great idea is because I've been fortunate enough to never have the color of my skin forcefully brought to my attention. While I would hope there are exceptions, it seems every time I ask a black person for examples of this, the answer is never *crickets.* There's always a story, if not multiple ones.

Being told by well-meaning white people that they should forget all about race probably strikes many black people a bit like being told they should just forget all about breathing. The reality of their lives wouldn't let them even know where to begin if they wanted to.

At least that's what I ASSUME it must be like. I don't really know for sure. And that basic idea guides me on discussions like these more than anything. There's a lot I don't know, and really can't know in my gut, because in some sense, I won a lottery before I was born that makes a lot of these discussions academic to me while they're everyday reality for others. But I don't think we'll learn much of anything if the well-meaning people among us decide we figured it all out and the conversation is over.
 

lazyboy97o

Well-Known Member
I've never heard of medieval peasants being treated exactly like slaves in the US, so I wouldn't know.
Then you should really look into the feudal system, especially as it existed in the Russian Empire up until quite close to the brink of the Bolshevik Revolution. Exactly may not be the correct word, but there is also no single manner in which slaves in the United States were treated nor a single manner in how serfs were treated.

Blacks may have been free from slavery after the Civil War, but it sure as heck wasn't sunshine and roses afterwards. I don't think I have to explain.
This is why I asked about Adventureland or Fantasyland. There are lots of people throughout history who have been oppressed and stories that ignore that oppression. I think though we get into an issue of story, medium and audience. A film, by its very nature, will fall short of the accuracy and nuance of a book, which itself will fall short of a multi volume book which would fall short of multiple books, which falls short of years of research and study.

Flynn, are you African American? If you're not, I don't expect you to understand.
You keep saying something like this and then denying it when called on it. It either matters or it does not. It is acceptable feel a stronger emotional connection due to heritage and culture, but does that connection give your position greater weight?
 

the.dreamfinder

Well-Known Member
Amid Amidi weighs in
http://www.cartoonbrew.com/disney/fact-checking-meryl-streeps-disney-bashing-speech-94380.html
Fact-Checking Meryl Streep’s Disney-Bashing Speech
streep-disney.jpg


While there are surely many things that the actress Meryl Streep can do well, critical thinking and historical research will not appear at the top of that list anytime soon. At the National Board of Review dinner a few nights ago, Streep made headlines when she bashed Walt Disney while presenting the best actress award to Emma Thompson, for her role as P.L. Travers in the Walt Disney biopicSaving Mr. Banks.

As part of a nearly ten-minute speech, Streep lobbed countless nasty, well-worn accusations at Disney, characterizing him as a racist, an anti-Semite, and a ‘gender-bigot.’ Her demonization of Disney was applauded all over, but for all her frankness, she displayed massive ignorance about both Walt Disney’s life and American history. Every statement she made about Disney was either grossly distorted or outright false. Here’s a fact-check of Streep’s Walt-bashing:

MERYL STREEP: “Some of [Walt Disney's] associates reported that Walt Disney didn’t really like women. Ward Kimball, who was one of his chief animators, one of the original “Nine Old Men,” creator of the Cheshire Cat, the Mad Hatter, Jiminy Cricket, said of Disney, ‘He didn’t trust women, or cats.’”

FACT: As the family-approved biographer of Ward Kimball, I’m tickled to see Ward quoted in a public venue. But it also pains me to see Ward’s words taken out of context to serve someone else’s personal agenda. I’ve read thousands of pages of Ward’s writings, including his personal diaries, and I can say unequivocally that Ward never felt Walt Disney ‘didn’t really like women.’ In the quote, Ward claims that Walt was suspicious of women, but I don’t know the context of that statement. And guess what, Meryl doesn’t know the context either. That’s the entirety of the quote published in Neal Gabler’s biography of Walt Disney, stripped of all its original nuance and meaning. We can only assume that there was something that Kimball said that preceded and followed his soundbite-worthy statement. The fact that Kimball listed both women and cats in the same sentence suggests that he was being playful and facetious, a reflection of his personality. He would have likely cringed to see someone misappropriating his comments to attack a man whom he deeply respected and admired.

MERYL STREEP: “Disney…was perhaps…or had some racist proclivities.”

FACT: Streep provides no specific accusations here. So let me just say this: no respected Disney historian has ever uncovered evidence that Walt Disney was racist. And goodness knows, we’ve digged in every corner. There is evidence that Walt uttered politically incorrect remarks (in a less sensitive era and long before the concept of ‘political correctness’ ever existed). However, after thousands of interviews with his employees and an immense paper trail, zero evidence has surfaced that he engaged in discriminatory acts against any individual based on race, ethnicity, color, religion, or sex. It’s safe to say that as a visionary futurist, Disney did not believe in running his company or behaving in a racist manner.

MERYL STREEP: “And he was certainly, on the evidence of his company’s policies, a gender bigot.”

FACT: Streep’s accusation stems from a 1938 letter written to a prospective employee. Streep read from it during her speech:

“Dear Miss Ford, your letter of recent date has been received in the inking and painting department for reply. Women do not do any of the creative work in connection with preparing the cartoons for the screen, as that task is performed entirely by young men. For this reason, girls are not considered for the training school. The only work open to women consists of tracing the characters on clear celluloid sheets with India ink, and then, filling in the tracing on the reverse side with paint according to directions.”

Firstly, this letter is not some kind of smoking gun. It was a basic form letter that was copied almost verbatim from the studio’s 1938 employee policies handbook. John Canemaker quoted the exact same policy in his 1996 book Before the Animation Begins: The Art and lives of Disney Inspiration Sketch Artists
ir
. The information in that book remained largely ignored for seventeen years, and it wasn’t until this random letter appeared online a few years ago that people suddenly became aware of this historical tidbit.

Here’s the reality: this policy was not unique to the Disney studio. It was a universal policy exercised by every single animation studio during the 1930s. The hierarchy was always the same: the vast majority of women worked in ink-and-paint, men worked exclusively in story, art direction and animation. Was it right? No. Was it American society in the 1930s? You betcha’. There were more industries then than today that were organized along gender lines. Women were also underrepresented throughout the workforce; the U.S. government launched propaganda campaigns in the early-1940s to encourage woman to work, so it could fill manpower shortages in the factories.

If Walt’s behavior makes him a gender-bigot, then it would only be fair to label every other animation studio head, not to mention nearly all industrialists, CEOs, political figures and businessmen from that era, as such, too. But from Streep’s perspective, it’s perfectly acceptable to isolate Walt Disney from the timeline of American history and hold him to the standards of 2014, while the rest of 1930s America gets a free pass.

But there’s another dimension to this issue, as well, that makes Streep’s comments outright false. Despite the official policy of the Disney studio being that women would only work in ink-and-paint, Walt ignored his own company’s policy time and time again. He always promoted women into different positions based on their skillsets. In the Thirties and Forties, dozens of women worked in traditionally male positions, occupying spots in animation (Retta Scott), art direction (Mary Blair), visual development (Sylvia Moberly-Holland), story (Bianca Majolie), character model (Lorna Soderstrom, Fini Rudiger), background painting (Thelma Witmer), promotional art and advertising (Gyo Fujikawa), and assistant animation and inbetweening (Freddie Blackburn, Elinor Fallberg, Mary Schuster, and Grace Stanzell in the 1940s, to name but a few, and joined in the 1950s by others like Lois Blumquist, Elizabeth Case, Retta Davidson, Eva Schneider, Bea Tomargo, Jane Shattuck andSylvia Frye). As a percentage of his employees, more women worked in non-ink-&-paint artistic positions at Disney between the 1930s and 1950s than any other Golden Age animation studio.

MERYL STREEP: “He formed and supported an anti-Semitic industry lobbying group.”

FACT: This is the most grotesquely misinformed statement presented by Streep during her vitriolic speech. Streep is referring to Walt’s involvement in the formation of the Motion Picture Alliance for Preservation of American Ideals (MPA). This was not a fringe organization nor was its purpose anti-Semitism. It was a mainstream, if miguided and reactionary, organization enacted by the movie industry’s conservative elite, and its membership included a who’s who of Hollywood, among them directors Cecil B. DeMille, John Ford, Norman Taurog, King Vidor, Victor Fleming, Leo McCarey and Sam Wood; actors John Wayne, Gary Cooper, Ginger Rogers, Clark Gable, Barbara Stanwyck, Robert Montgomery, George Murphy (who later became a U.S. Senator) and Ronald Reagan (who later became president of the United States); MGM art director Cedric Gibbons; and gossip columnist Hedda Hopper.

When the MPA was formed in 1944, of which Disney became its first vice-president, its agenda was spelled out clearly in the group’s mission statement:

We believe in, and like, the American way of life: the liberty and freedom which generations before us have fought to create and preserve; the freedom to speak, to think, to live, to worship, to work, and to govern ourselves as individuals, as free men; the right to succeed or fail as free men, according to the measure of our ability and our strength.

Believing in these things, we find ourselves in sharp revolt against a rising tide of communism, fascism, and kindred beliefs, that seek by subversive means to undermine and change this way of life; groups that have forfeited their right to exist in this country of ours, because they seek to achieve their change by means other than the vested procedure of the ballot and to deny the right of the majority opinion of the people to rule.

In our special field of motion pictures, we resent the growing impression that this industry is made of, and dominated by, Communists, radicals, and crackpots. We believe that we represent the vast majority of the people who serve this great medium of expression. But unfortunately it has been an unorganized majority. This has been almost inevitable. The very love of freedom, of the rights of the individual, make this great majority reluctant to organize. But now we must, or we shall meanly lose “the last, best hope on earth.”

The group’s formation has to be viewed in the context of the much bigger ideological and cultural turfwar that was taking place in Hollywood at the time. The era and its politics are extensively documented in the recent book When Hollywood Was Right: How Movie Stars, Studio Moguls, and Big Business Remade American Politics
ir
. As part of that era’s politics, name-calling was fervent (sound familiar?). Conservatives referred to liberals as Pinkos, New Dealers, and Commies. Liberals, in turn, branded conservatives, like Walt, as Fascists and anti-Semites. Labelling the MPA an anti-Semitic organization was a rhetorical tactic used by the left to attack it, and while there were surely anti-Semites in the group, it was not an inherently anti-Semitic organization nor was that Walt’s reason for being involved in the group.

Walt’s involvement with the MPA peaked in 1947 when the group’s members testified in Washington D.C. in front of the House Un-American Activities Committee. Disney was among those who spoke as a “friendly” witness and he called out the leader of the Disney studio strike, David Hilberman. Disney presumably felt vindicated after exposing who he believed were subversive elements within the Hollywood industry, because his involvement in the MPA—minimal as it had been—waned after his testimony. Disney’s actions speak powerfully to the notion that his involvement in the group was to settle personal scores against those whom he felt had wronged him, and never an ideological stance against Jews.​

 

Pocahontas

Well-Known Member
Why in the world would Meryl feel the need to stir the pot and bring up all this dirty laundry that is hardly factual? Nobody would ever know if Walt was truly racist or sexist.

Even if he was, times were very different back then. It's extremely unfair to say that he should know better than to be racist regardless of the era. Everybody was brought up a different way, moral views and values were so different. If you didn't realize, World Wars 1 and 2 were both during Walt's lifetime. The world was extremely aware. How would he know not to be a certain way if everybody around him is like that?

I'm not saying that he was racist or sexist, and I'm not saying the wasn't because I don't know and I won't pretend like I do. That doesn't make his legacy any less of what it is. I don't believe we should bring personal beliefs into things like this.

http://www.latimes.com/local/abcari...o-what-20140109,0,1334459.story#axzz2q3CxsB32
 

Californian Elitist

Well-Known Member
You keep saying something like this and then denying it when called on it. It either matters or it does not. It is acceptable feel a stronger emotional connection due to heritage and culture, but does that connection give your position greater weight?

This is most likely the last thing I'm going to say. Frankly, I'm sick of this thread and I've come across a phony here, and I've been insulted.

Some of you don't know what it's like to be African American in this country. Have you ever been called a n***er, right to your face? I have. Have you ever gotten stares, looks and whispers in public? I have. Have you ever been followed around in stores and been accused of stealing? Completely embarrassed while you empty your bags and everyone's looking at you... I'm not saying nothing but blacks experience these types of things on our country, but it sure does happen a lot to my people. Walk a mile in my shoes, it ain't fun and it's hard as hell.

In regards to my comments about being African American and understanding, I was not referring to solely race, I was referring to the special conversations African Americans have within their families and a certain understanding. I said that already. Maybe it is about race. At this point, I don't really care if it is or not. I just don't, I've had it with this thread.

This isn't a pity plea. People can say they don't necessarily have to be African American to understand the struggles and what we go through on a daily basis, but I don't believe that. They won't ever truly understand. Whatever, though.

Take care, everyone.
 

Pocahontas

Well-Known Member
This is most likely the last thing I'm going to say. Frankly, I'm sick of this thread and I've come across a phony here, and I've been insulted.

Some of you don't know what it's like to be African American in this country. Have you ever been called a n***er, right to your face? I have. Have you ever gotten stares, looks and whispers in public? I have. Have you ever been followed around in stores and been accused of stealing? Completely embarrassed while you empty your bags and everyone's looking at you... I'm not saying nothing but blacks experience these types of things on our country, but it sure does happen a lot to my people. Walk a mile in my shoes, it ain't fun and it's hard as hell.

In regards to my comments about being African American and understanding, I was not referring to solely race, I was referring to the special conversations African Americans have within their families and a certain understanding. I said that already. Maybe it is about race. At this point, I don't really care if it is or not. I just don't, I've had it with this thread.

This isn't a pity plea. People can say they don't necessarily have to be African American to understand the struggles and what we go through on a daily basis, but I don't believe that. They won't ever truly understand. Whatever, though.

Take care, everyone.
What are you trying to say with the whole African American racism thing?

I'm not trying to be disrespectful, I just don't understand - could you explain?
 
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