Main Street U.S.A. hub redevelopment at the Magic Kingdom

[LAKid53]

Well, yes, in Barrie's play, traditionally Peter Pan was played by a female (smaller, lighter so easier to fly in the rigging), but that doesn't mean Peter is a girl.... In the 2003 movie, Peter was played by a boy. Sure would put a spin on the grown up Peter in Hook if Peter was a girl.

Juliet was played by a boy in Shakespeare's time. That doesn't mean Juliet is a guy.

 

[ParksAndPixels]

Same as "tinkerbell". Guy portraying Girl. It was a passing joke. If you have to analyze it this much it becomes much deeper topic than was ever intended.

 

[Epicpilot]

Agreed. How long do you think it will be before they have an AA perform the "flight"? Could program the wave wand motion into the automaton.

Then when it breaks just point some strobe lights at it and make it a flying disco ball.

 

[LAKid53]

Then when it breaks just point some strobe lights at it and make it a flying disco ball.

And watch the pages of discussion on this site pop up. With a thread titled "Watch on Repairs to Disco Tinkerbelle". lol

 

[FerretAfros]

Agreed. How long do you think it will be before they have an AA perform the "flight"? Could program the wave wand motion into the automaton.

To a certain extent, it's already been done, by Believe...There's Magic in the Stars at DL, which is credited with creating storytelling via fireworks (though ROE debuted a year earlier). The storytelling trend continued with Wishes and Remember...Dreams Come True, but the mini-Tink rig wasn't used for either of them (though its support poles were repurposed for the pinwheels during Remember's Toontown segment). Arguably, it wasn't especially effective, and I'm not sure that most guests realized what it was supposed to be

You can see it at 1:20 in this video. A 'real' Tink also appeared later in the show, and can be seen at 9:15

 

[ford91exploder]

Aren't boys male or did I miss something in my biology class.... Aren't they called the Lost Boys for a reason?

Not according to the latest NASSP rulings and neither are girls

 

[ford91exploder]

Agreed. How long do you think it will be before they have an AA perform the "flight"? Could program the wave wand motion into the automaton.

I would imagine quite soon as I believe Tink is one of the highest paid CM's at WDW, And you could have a disco ball with a strobe all lined up for the times the robot is down (say 2'nd or 3'rd flight...)

 

[DVCOwner]

Well, thank you for speaking on my behalf since you know me so well.

Wait... actually, you don't and I'm a very strong advocate in the opposite direction.

Disney Parks use to prize show quality as their second pillar to uphold after safety. What has been lacking under recent management is adherence to this tenant.

I believe that every wall or scrim that goes up is a sign of the positive. It's only when they don't come down or don't go up in the first place that they carry a negative connotation.

You've made the assumption that I would complain if walls went up blocking all of the Hub. That is far from the truth. I may not agree with the need to do this refurb and the reasons why it's being done (btw - the reason is that TDO believes it needs more pasture for FP+ cattle for fireworks/parades/Castle shows); but, that's not what is being debated here. What is my debate is the approach and speed at which the work is being completed and the impact that dragging this project out over what will be a year and half have on the quality of what is being experienced at the Magic Kingdom is.

Instead of using hypothetical examples of "what if they did this or that", let's use practical and current choices when it comes to major construction inside a Disney Park?

Let's use DCA as our case model.

DCA needed to redo their "opening stanza" in somewhat of a similar manner to what MK is doing with their Hub. The "main street" and its surroundings needed plussing. What DCA did is they temporarily closed down ALL of the entrance plaza and street and rerouted traffic though backstage access until the project was close enough to complete that the street could open while work continued on the details. They were willing to take an entire section of the park offline to get the project done as quickly as possible.

Now, DCA didn't have as significant of a parade or show on what is now Buena Vista as MK does at the Hub, so let's use another example of making "tough" choices to the work done - the upcoming work on World of Color 2.0. This January, DCA is going to take WoC offline for three months (along with likely periods of time where other attractions at Paradise Pier will go down as well). They are willing to inconvenience 3 months of guests to get the project done.

This is the difference between what WDW use to be willing to do versus what they aren't willing to do now. They aren't willing to make "tough" decisions. They are doing so under the guise of not wanting to inconveniencing the guest. They could close down the Hub and knock this project out in a matter of a month or so; but, they aren't willing to do it. Too many guests would complain they missed the MSEP or Dream Along with Mickey. This is the same excuse they use for not closing down attractions like Splash when part of the Mountain fell in on the loading platform and they put up netting instead until it could limp until the next scheduled refurb. The same was true of the Tree of Life and it's falling branches. The same is true of the current condition of Pirates. The same was true of why Space Mountain got quick patch job instead of an extended plussing that it needs.

The sad fact is that TDO is selling this lie under the idea that is for the best for us. In reality, it’s because of the costs to them. The don't want to pay to get it done quickly and they don't want to pay the "cost" of if they pull rides or attractions down - they don't have enough capacity to keep up with it.

What's going on with the Hub is analogous to what is going on with the Yeti, or the sad state at DHS or EPCOT.
What's even sadder is that guests have settled for this level of apathy.

Ultimately, if the Hub takes 1.5 years that will be ~ 27 million guests that will have that hole in the ground as its memory. The alternative would've been to have less than 4 million (assuming they could do the work in a quarter) be more inconvenienced by having parades and shows cancelled.

Your road construction analogy makes the assumption that the mandate is predetermined that things need to stay open and flowing. Disney Parks didn't use to put that as their driving factor. They use to care about the quality of what was left up and working versus the quantity. I miss a WDW where the quality of a guest's experience mattered and just being open wasn’t good enough.

I do not disagree with what you are saying except in two areas. One, I think the 27 million guest that has to see the construction site for a year and a half is better than 4 million missing the parades and shows for the time it would take to build a accelerated project. The other is that my believe as a civil engineer that has worked construction projects over the last 38 years, I think there this is not a cost issue. Spreading a project out time wise to allow for keeping the area open for parades and shows would cost more than the normal project. It would cost about the same as an accelerated project working 24/7. Any time would reduce construction time or spread it out and keep things open cost go up.

 

[JediMasterMatt]

I do not disagree with what you are saying except in two areas. One, I think the 27 million guest that has to see the construction site for a year and a half is better than 4 million missing the parades and shows for the time it would take to build a accelerated project. The other is that my believe as a civil engineer that has worked construction projects over the last 38 years, I think there this is not a cost issue. Spreading a project out time wise to allow for keeping the area open for parades and shows would cost more than the normal project. It would cost about the same as an accelerated project working 24/7. Any time would reduce construction time or spread it out and keep things open cost go up.

Re: 27 million vs. 4 million - to me it comes down to how many people leave the WDW with their experiences diminished. Construction in no doubt diminishes a guests experience. Would 4 million people not being able to see the parades be more impacted than the 27 million that will see this project? Of course they would. Disney Parks use to make this decision and one US Disney Park still does (DLR). Instead of the hypothetical 4 million guests seeing greater impact to their stay (more construction and parades cancelled) you end up with 27 million that are exposed to what others have referred to as the "declining by degrees" that has been occurring with Disney Parks level of service. An interesting thought is going to be how many of those 27 million will be repeat customers over that year and half project (perhaps you DVCOwner)?

Re: projects and costs and timelines - any project (construction, technology, infrastructure, etc.) are all impacted on the bottom line by home much "fuel" you dump into the engine to get the project done - manpower. Number of people multiplied by the number of hours they work = the fuel in terms of labor to get projects completed. Much like the New Fantasyland project, the Hub is not a hornet's nest of activity constantly buzzing with work being done. As outlined in many of these construction project threads, TDO likes to spread out the costs over many fiscal quarters. So, not only is TDO reluctant to make the tough decision to pull the Hub offline, the don't want to write the check for a big spend to get it done quickly.

If you want watch the different methodologies at work just keep an eye on DLR as it fires through the home stretch to the 60th anniversary. Major projects aren't even started (like WoC 2.0) what will be finished before the 2nd phase of the Hub refurb even begins.

 

[DVCOwner]

Re: 27 million vs. 4 million - to me it comes down to how many people leave the WDW with their experiences diminished. Construction in no doubt diminishes a guests experience. Would 4 million people not being able to see the parades be more impacted than the 27 million that will see this project? Of course they would. Disney Parks use to make this decision and one US Disney Park still does (DLR). Instead of the hypothetical 4 million guests seeing greater impact to their stay (more construction and parades cancelled) you end up with 27 million that are exposed to what others have referred to as the "declining by degrees" that has been occurring with Disney Parks level of service. An interesting thought is going to be how many of those 27 million will be repeat customers over that year and half project (perhaps you DVCOwner)?

Re: projects and costs and timelines - any project (construction, technology, infrastructure, etc.) are all impacted on the bottom line by home much "fuel" you dump into the engine to get the project done - manpower. Number of people multiplied by the number of hours they work = the fuel in terms of labor to get projects completed. Much like the New Fantasyland project, the Hub is not a hornet's nest of activity constantly buzzing with work being done. As outlined in many of these construction project threads, TDO likes to spread out the costs over many fiscal quarters. So, not only is TDO reluctant to make the tough decision to pull the Hub offline, the don't want to write the check for a big spend to get it done quickly.

If you want watch the different methodologies at work just keep an eye on DLR as it fires through the home stretch to the 60th anniversary. Major projects aren't even started (like WoC 2.0) what will be finished before the 2nd phase of the Hub refurb even begins.

We are just going to have to disagree on the 27 vs. 4 million. I think having 4 million missing what many believe to be a large part of the Disney experience is greater overall lose than the small inconveniences I have had on my last three trips. So you see it one way, I see it another.

On construction being just like putting fuel in an engine, I think you are leaving out a major cost, the engine. One major cost of any construction project is the overhead. This cost gets no work done directly but adds to the overall cost of the project each day. In your example, even if the engine is not running at full speed, there still is the cost of renting the engine. So it is not as simple as number of people multiplied by the number of hours worked.

 

[FerretAfros]

If you want watch the different methodologies at work just keep an eye on DLR as it fires through the home stretch to the 60th anniversary. Major projects aren't even started (like WoC 2.0) what will be finished before the 2nd phase of the Hub refurb even begins.

Please, stop fooling yourself. DLR also has construction that is just as visible as MK's hub, and also takes a long time building it. For the initial World of Color construction, the entire edge of Paradise Bay was open to bystanders, with the exception of the viewing area itself which was being redesigned. It wasn't a matter of putting your camera over a wall or peering through a mesh screen, it was just plain exposed to everybody walking by

The drained bay lasted for about a year while they built the show. Testing and continued construction (also visible to everybody) lasted about 5 months after that. Plus, when the show first opened they had problems getting the platforms to raise and lower, so they were locked into their visible positions for the first several months that the show was performed, essentially giving guests about 2 years of obstructed views

And please don't pretend like the upcoming multi-month closure of the show is any sort of accelerated schedule. When they debuted the brand-new Winter Dreams show last year (and the highly modified version this year, as well as multiple alterations to the original show since it opened), they did it while running the regular show nightly. In fact, the show has only missed a couple nights since it debuted in June 2010, running multiple shows most nights. If they were really pushing for something special, they could easily program the new show while keeping the existing one going; they've done it before.

And if you want construction projects that take absurdly long after being absurdly delayed, look no further than the recent safety enhancements to DLR's Alice in Wonderland, which took nearly 4 years to get approved, after installing the 'temporary' solution
Yes, DLR does do some things better, like holiday overlays. And WDW also does some things better, like one-off weekend-long special events (runDisney, Star Wars Weekends, etc). Neither one is free of faults, and it gets old to constantly read comments about how perfect DLR is, when it struggles with things just like WDW. When it comes to construction, both are about the same, and (for the most part) about as good as can be expected within the confines of a theme park that operates for 18 hours a day

 

[Lord_Vader]

We are just going to have to disagree on the 27 vs. 4 million. I think having 4 million missing what many believe to be a large part of the Disney experience is greater overall lose than the small inconveniences I have had on my last three trips. So you see it one way, I see it another.

On construction being just like putting fuel in an engine, I think you are leaving out a major cost, the engine. One major cost of any construction project is the overhead. This cost gets no work done directly but adds to the overall cost of the project each day. In your example, even if the engine is not running at full speed, there still is the cost of renting the engine. So it is not as simple as number of people multiplied by the number of hours worked.

And every construction contract is different, most large construction projects get partial payouts at specific completion milestones. This does very little to save the company contracting any money but does result in the construction company carrying large construction loans with interest rates that jack up the contract price.

 

[DVCOwner]

And every construction contract is different, most large construction projects get partial payouts at specific completion milestones. This does very little to save the company contracting any money but does result in the construction company carrying large construction loans with interest rates that jack up the contract price.

Agree 100% - all part of the overhead on any project.

 

[JediMasterMatt]

Please, stop fooling yourself. DLR also has construction that is just as visible as MK's hub, and also takes a long time building it. For the initial World of Color construction, the entire edge of Paradise Bay was open to bystanders, with the exception of the viewing area itself which was being redesigned. It wasn't a matter of putting your camera over a wall or peering through a mesh screen, it was just plain exposed to everybody walking by

The drained bay lasted for about a year while they built the show. Testing and continued construction (also visible to everybody) lasted about 5 months after that. Plus, when the show first opened they had problems getting the platforms to raise and lower, so they were locked into their visible positions for the first several months that the show was performed, essentially giving guests about 2 years of obstructed views

And please don't pretend like the upcoming multi-month closure of the show is any sort of accelerated schedule. When they debuted the brand-new Winter Dreams show last year (and the highly modified version this year, as well as multiple alterations to the original show since it opened), they did it while running the regular show nightly. In fact, the show has only missed a couple nights since it debuted in June 2010, running multiple shows most nights. If they were really pushing for something special, they could easily program the new show while keeping the existing one going; they've done it before.

And if you want construction projects that take absurdly long after being absurdly delayed, look no further than the recent safety enhancements to DLR's Alice in Wonderland, which took nearly 4 years to get approved, after installing the 'temporary' solution
Yes, DLR does do some things better, like holiday overlays. And WDW also does some things better, like one-off weekend-long special events (runDisney, Star Wars Weekends, etc). Neither one is free of faults, and it gets old to constantly read comments about how perfect DLR is, when it struggles with things just like WDW. When it comes to construction, both are about the same, and (for the most part) about as good as can be expected within the confines of a theme park that operates for 18 hours a day

You are missing the point... the Hub refurb is not equivalent to DCA getting World of Color in terms of complexity and yet World of Color will likely end up taking less time to complete than the Hub refurb.

I have no issue with construction taking place at Disney Parks. Put the walls up and get the work done. Walls are a necessary evil and an understandable eyesore. It's through them that quality can be maintained or improved.

The issue is that instead of the Hub at MK getting something as spectacular or complex as World of Color for its year and half worth of work - the end result is some leveled land, fake grass, a few planters and a couple of fake turrets.

World of Color took the time it did because it was complex.

The Hub refurb is nothing of the kind. There is no complicated end result that will come from the project.

It saddens me that WDW fans keep settling for less and less at their resort. I love the place. That's why I care enough to know that if I'm not bothered by a basic earth moving project taking almost as long to complete as the last true E-ticket the resort had (Splash Mountain), then why should I care about other areas of show quality sliding.

If people don't care about something as big as why this project keeps going and going, then you probably don't care about other areas where quality has fallen (like the Yeti, the condition that Pirates is in, Tree of Life's netting, etc).

Re: WoC 2.0 - it is indeed a massive refurb that will be taking place. Not only is it getting regular wear and tear replaced, it is getting new fountains and effects added not only to the aircraft carrier deck; but, also around Paradise Pier itself. This isn't simply reprograming the existing infrastructure to display a new show like Winter Dreams - it's more like coming up with a new show from scratch using all the existing bag of tricks and incorporating new ones.

 

[FerretAfros]

You are missing the point... the Hub refurb is not equivalent to DCA getting World of Color in terms of complexity and yet World of Color will likely end up taking less time to complete than the Hub refurb.

You're right. One is taking place in extremely confined quarters within one of the most heavily-traveled areas of the busiest theme park in the world, while the other was done in a huge site with very few constraints about when they can work or where they can leave their equipment

I'm not saying that there weren't technical difficulties with World of Color, but it's like comparing the rebuilding of an active freeway interchange with the construction of a new server farm on a new site. One has all sorts of construction staging, maintenance of traffic, and coordination issues to worry about for a relatively straightforward end product, while the other is a relatively simple construction project with some complex equipment to install at the end. Both are complicated, but for very different reasons, and both impact guests in the park.

And much like a freeway interchange project, the hub will take longer to build than WOC because they must be conscious of the environment that they're working in. If they could work 24/7 and had the entire hub at their disposal, they could have finished in a couple months. But that's simply unrealistic, much like how it's not realistic to shut down a freeway to rebuild some ramps, and the project stretches on for several years. There will be all sorts of headaches during the construction, but it's done to minimize the impacts as much as possible

That's just how these sorts of projects work, and it always has been. When DLR did its Main Street repaving project a few years ago, it took them roughly 4 months to complete it, because they had to work in stages to allow guest traffic to flow around it. They only repaved the portion of the street with the buildings on either side, and they simply replaced what was there; there were no substantive changes, just repaving, and it still took that long. With the actual changes that MK is getting, it's no wonder that it's taking so long

Re: WoC 2.0 - it is indeed a massive refurb that will be taking place. Not only is it getting regular wear and tear replaced, it is getting new fountains and effects added not only to the aircraft carrier deck; but, also around Paradise Pier itself. This isn't simply reprograming the existing infrastructure to display a new show like Winter Dreams - it's more like coming up with a new show from scratch using all the existing bag of tricks and incorporating new ones.

Several of the new versions of the show have included new equipment that was installed while keeping the show operating, including the extra projectors on Screamin' for the Troncore, and the LEDs on Screamin' and the bubble-snowflake launchers in the viewing area for Winter Dreams 1.0. I also have to believe that they've done maintenance on the equipment and replaced things, since the show has been running for 4.5 years and surely various things have broken since then (like the ill-fated projection domes)

That's not to say that this round of new equipment and refurbishments isn't needed or earned. The show has been running nightly for 4.5 years, and has surely seen a lot of wear and tear. However, to say that this multi-month refurbishment is an example of how DLR thinks of guests first (when they've already established that they can do nearly all of it with no impacts to guests) is silly

I visit both DLR and WDW multiple times each year, and have seen this stuff in person. There are just as many annoying impacts to guests (if not more) at DLR, and they last for extended periods there too. Sorry if I'm being defensive about it, but the way that many people on these boards think WDW can do no right while DLR can do no wrong really just grinds my gears. Both have faults and both do things well; neither one is perfect nor is either one all-bad

 

[WDWtraveler]

Photo update as of Saturday, Dec 6. Left (west) side of hub redevelopment. Concrete embankments for the river were poured last week.

Left (west) side of hub redevelopment. Lots of "plumbing" still under work. This is the extreme west side of the area, looking towards Tomorrowland in the background.

Right (east) side of hub redevelopment. Very little of the facing has been installed on this "bridge."

 

[Disney Analyst]

You're right. One is taking place in extremely confined quarters within one of the most heavily-traveled areas of the busiest theme park in the world, while the other was done in a huge site with very few constraints about when they can work or where they can leave their equipment

I'm not saying that there weren't technical difficulties with World of Color, but it's like comparing the rebuilding of an active freeway interchange with the construction of a new server farm on a new site. One has all sorts of construction staging, maintenance of traffic, and coordination issues to worry about for a relatively straightforward end product, while the other is a relatively simple construction project with some complex equipment to install at the end. Both are complicated, but for very different reasons, and both impact guests in the park.

And much like a freeway interchange project, the hub will take longer to build than WOC because they must be conscious of the environment that they're working in. If they could work 24/7 and had the entire hub at their disposal, they could have finished in a couple months. But that's simply unrealistic, much like how it's not realistic to shut down a freeway to rebuild some ramps, and the project stretches on for several years. There will be all sorts of headaches during the construction, but it's done to minimize the impacts as much as possible

That's just how these sorts of projects work, and it always has been. When DLR did its Main Street repaving project a few years ago, it took them roughly 4 months to complete it, because they had to work in stages to allow guest traffic to flow around it. They only repaved the portion of the street with the buildings on either side, and they simply replaced what was there; there were no substantive changes, just repaving, and it still took that long. With the actual changes that MK is getting, it's no wonder that it's taking so long

Several of the new versions of the show have included new equipment that was installed while keeping the show operating, including the extra projectors on Screamin' for the Troncore, and the LEDs on Screamin' and the bubble-snowflake launchers in the viewing area for Winter Dreams 1.0. I also have to believe that they've done maintenance on the equipment and replaced things, since the show has been running for 4.5 years and surely various things have broken since then (like the ill-fated projection domes)

That's not to say that this round of new equipment and refurbishments isn't needed or earned. The show has been running nightly for 4.5 years, and has surely seen a lot of wear and tear. However, to say that this multi-month refurbishment is an example of how DLR thinks of guests first (when they've already established that they can do nearly all of it with no impacts to guests) is silly

I visit both DLR and WDW multiple times each year, and have seen this stuff in person. There are just as many annoying impacts to guests (if not more) at DLR, and they last for extended periods there too. Sorry if I'm being defensive about it, but the way that many people on these boards think WDW can do no right while DLR can do no wrong really just grinds my gears. Both have faults and both do things well; neither one is perfect nor is either one all-bad

Just to clarify. This refurb is involving a full lagoon drain, tearing out and replacing platfoms with new platforms that are being built offsite (They built the original platforms in the lagoon, which is why it took longer) So in 4 months they will have rebuilt WOC, added new fountains and effects, and are programming a modified show. This is to address major issues with the platform system that did not work out as originally planned.

 

[DrewmanS]

I do not disagree with what you are saying except in two areas. One, I think the 27 million guest that has to see the construction site for a year and a half is better than 4 million missing the parades and shows for the time it would take to build a accelerated project. The other is that my believe as a civil engineer that has worked construction projects over the last 38 years, I think there this is not a cost issue. Spreading a project out time wise to allow for keeping the area open for parades and shows would cost more than the normal project. It would cost about the same as an accelerated project working 24/7. Any time would reduce construction time or spread it out and keep things open cost go up.

My family was at MK in September. I never mentioned anything to my wife or two boys about the construction project. Two full days in the park, none of them ever made any comment about the hub construction. For the average guest, the construction walls fade away. You don't spend your time looking over the wall, you look at the castle or what you can easily see. Those posting on this site are looking for the diminished experience, the vast majority of the 27 million visiting the park either don't notice it or are unaffected by it.

You can choose to see the glass as half empty (diminished experience), half full (new projects or parks getting TLC), or just enjoy the glass of water (your in WDW). Most people at WDW seem to fall into the last category!

 

[Kman101]

I agree the speed it's taking seems long but to compare this project to a lagoon project? I just don't agree with that. They're two very different projects.

If the comparison is instead saying the lagoon project at WDW would likely take 8 months compared to 4 months at DL, then I could get behind it.

 

[jrlang1]

Photo update as of Saturday, Dec 6. Left (west) side of hub redevelopment. Concrete embankments for the river were poured last week.

View attachment 75878

Left (west) side of hub redevelopment. Lots of "plumbing" still under work. This is the extreme west side of the area, looking towards Tomorrowland in the background.

View attachment 75879

Right (east) side of hub redevelopment. Very little of the facing has been installed on this "bridge."

View attachment 75880

Well it looks like they will be ready to drain the moat and remove the dams this slow season in feb