Main Street U.S.A. hub redevelopment at the Magic Kingdom

[aladdin2007]

Yes, they will be full of twinkle lights. The more I learn about the new hub, the more confident I become in its direction. I miss the old trees but this will go a long way to restoring a park-like environment.

Sounds good, now Im starting to feel a little better about it.

 

[dgp602]

Someone just posted on Facebook that the most was being filled up today. They posted a picture as well.

Whenever I see dirt being dug up at the MK, or an original ride being torn apart ( SWSA ), I always think, man, last time that dirt or those bare wall studs saw the light of day was when the park was originally built!! Like, in this picture, that dirt they are digging up was originally laid way back when and for the most part hasn't been touched since. Am I the only one that thinks that?

 

[Gabe1]

Sounds good, now Im starting to feel a little better about it.

I tend to agree with you. It will be different than the beautiful area it was but will not be visually awful. I say that with disappointment given Disney is fixing an area that is broken but an area that Disney foolishly and deliberately broke with careless disregard to capacity. The hub should have never been imagineered into an entertainment venue.

The hub was imagineered to be a distribution center of guests, dispersing guests down different paths to keep the flow of guests branching off into different sections of parks. Brilliant imagineering that Disney broke without regard to the operational purpose of the hub. Shy of distributing guests with direct access to Tomorrowland and Adventureland from Town Square the new hub or the bypass will not correct the flow of the hub during evening entertainment, the expanded hub will only add capacity to the hub as an entertainment venue two very different objective still colliding. The bypass will still empty into a congested area of the hub during entertainment hours and the bypass will allow an additional path to reach or leave the congested area, no more. Guests will not bypass the hub congestion, just the Main Street Congestion.

Disney should have never created entertainment in the hub. The Magic Kingdom was not imagineered to accommodate vast guests gathering and lingering in the hub or on Main Street. Imagineering fireworks and castle shows that required guests to linger in the hub should have never been launched in the first place. Wishes created enough of a problem. Adding a castle show just fueled the Wishes misstep into a further problematic area. The new hub is a band-aid patch, while adding more usable space to the hub the band-aid will not solve the problem of gathering huge amounts of guests into the hub area. The Hub is still meant to move guests in and out of different lands and the bypass behind Main Street will not allow guests to travel through the hub during night time shows without being obstructed by lingering guests.

The Hub as is operationally still works. Guests walk up Main Street, distribute and efficiently disperse into other lands. It only becomes problematic when Disney stages shows in an area that are wildly above capacity expectations. What Disney should do is create a nighttime show that can be seen equally from most areas of the park. Fireworks can be imagineered that way. Instead of adding a projection show offer instead go with an imagineered offering at Animal Kingdom as it launches night time hours. Distribute your guests to other venues at night. The practice of tying up large areas of usable space in the immediate hub area for dessert parties and FP+'s isn't an efficient use of available space as it further condenses more guests in a smaller footprint of the view-able areas for the shows. Imagineering continues to disregard capacity when moving forward with hub entertainment. Original Imagineers were thoughtful, it was the Imagineers that came later that are currently at fault for the hub debacle.

 

[hollywoodj]

 

[aladdin2007]

Whenever I see dirt being dug up at the MK, or an original ride being torn apart ( SWSA ), I always think, man, last time that dirt or those bare wall studs saw the light of day was when the park was originally built!! Like, in this picture, that dirt they are digging up was originally laid way back when and for the most part hasn't been touched since. Am I the only one that thinks that?

I get what you are saying, I felt the same way about snow whites adventures even though it had a redo back in 94. theres always carousel of progress lol, so far. But I love seeing original anything that hasnt been touched. From the ground to landscaping to attractions etc.

 

[aladdin2007]

View attachment 51162

wow from today? Im happy for the ducks lol, have felt bad for them the whole time.

 

[SpectroMan93]

I tend to agree with you. It will be different than the beautiful area it was but will not be visually awful. I say that with disappointment given Disney is fixing an area that is broken but an area that Disney foolishly and deliberately broke with careless disregard to capacity. The hub should have never been imagineered into an entertainment venue.

The hub was imagineered to be a distribution center of guests, dispersing guests down different paths to keep the flow of guests branching off into different sections of parks. Brilliant imagineering that Disney broke without regard to the operational purpose of the hub. Shy of distributing guests with direct access to Tomorrowland and Adventureland from Town Square the new hub or the bypass will not correct the flow of the hub during evening entertainment, the expanded hub will only add capacity to the hub as an entertainment venue two very different objective still colliding. The bypass will still empty into a congested area of the hub during entertainment hours and the bypass will allow an additional path to reach or leave the congested area, no more. Guests will not bypass the hub congestion, just the Main Street Congestion.

Disney should have never created entertainment in the hub. The Magic Kingdom was not imagineered to accommodate vast guests gathering and lingering in the hub or on Main Street. Imagineering fireworks and castle shows that required guests to linger in the hub should have never been launched in the first place. Wishes created enough of a problem. Adding a castle show just fueled the Wishes misstep into a further problematic area. The new hub is a band-aid patch, while adding more usable space to the hub the band-aid will not solve the problem of gathering huge amounts of guests into the hub area. The Hub is still meant to move guests in and out of different lands and the bypass behind Main Street will not allow guests to travel through the hub during night time shows without being obstructed by lingering guests.

The Hub as is operationally still works. Guests walk up Main Street, distribute and efficiently disperse into other lands. It only becomes problematic when Disney stages shows in an area that are wildly above capacity expectations. What Disney should do is create a nighttime show that can be seen equally from most areas of the park. Fireworks can be imagineered that way. Instead of adding a projection show offer instead go with an imagineered offering at Animal Kingdom as it launches night time hours. Distribute your guests to other venues at night. The practice of tying up large areas of usable space in the immediate hub area for dessert parties and FP+'s isn't an efficient use of available space as it further condenses more guests in a smaller footprint of the view-able areas for the shows. Imagineering continues to disregard capacity when moving forward with hub entertainment. Original Imagineers were thoughtful, it was the Imagineers that came later that are currently at fault for the hub debacle.

To be fair, the hubs of every Disney park these days is used for entertainment purposes, especially nighttime. And I can't really blame Disney for taking advantage of having castle-centered fireworks shows. It's a beautiful backdrop and provides a wonderful "kiss goodnight" at the end of the day. For Disney fans who go to the parks often, it's an inconvenience. For once in a "lifetime" guests, it's a lasting memory. The situation in the hub is far from ideal, but that doesn't mean the castle fireworks are wrong.

 

[Gabe1]

To be fair, the hubs of every Disney park these days is used for entertainment purposes, especially nighttime. And I can't really blame Disney for taking advantage of having castle-centered fireworks shows. It's a beautiful backdrop and provides a wonderful "kiss goodnight" at the end of the day. For Disney fans who go to the parks often, it's an inconvenience. For once in a "lifetime" guests, it's a lasting memory. The situation in the hub is far from ideal, but that doesn't mean the castle fireworks are wrong.

In an emergency situation the hub would be a nightmare at show time. The World Showcase has so many emergency exits around the world and wide sidewalks to handle the crowds in many different directions even off stage. Fantasmic also has an emergency evacuation design and a maximum capacity. The hub is just bodies of people squished up against one another. I totally agree that the hub is from from an ideal, especially since it was not designed to be a venue backdrop or not. Instead of trying to make the situation safer for all they squish people more by selling off big chunks of the viewing area for events and dessert parties. I can't justify the over capacity situation because it pleases first time guests.

 

[SpectroMan93]

In an emergency situation the hub would be a nightmare at show time. The World Showcase has so many emergency exits around the world and wide sidewalks to handle the crowds in many different directions even off stage. Fantasmic also has an emergency evacuation design and a maximum capacity. The hub is just bodies of people squished up against one another. I totally agree that the hub is from from an ideal, especially since it was not designed to be a venue backdrop or not. Instead of trying to make the situation safer for all they squish people more by selling off big chunks of the viewing area for events and dessert parties. I can't justify the over capacity situation because it pleases first time guests.

When you put it that way, I get what you mean. But that's the purpose of this hub expansion and Main Street bypass to address those issues, right? If utilized right, it will make an over capacity situation more bearable and less dangerous.

 

[Gabe1]

When you put it that way, I get what you mean. But that's the purpose of this hub expansion and Main Street bypass to address those issues, right? If utilized right, it will make an over capacity situation more bearable and less dangerous.

In theory yes. I disagree with their statistics though.

The bypass dumps right at the edge of the hub. But during the evening shows how do guests reach the hub? Shy of going through the terrace to reach the bypass guests will still have to plow through all the lingering guests in the hub to reach to the bypass.

All the expanded hub will do is push the guests farther up Main Street, closer to the castle. It will dump even more guests into the hub. The portion prior viewing from farther away from the castle during wishes and the projection show. Making the hub bigger will just pull the guests partially off Main Street and into the hub making the hub a larger but equally congested clog. My projection is less guests on Main Street and even more guests in the hub trying to get closer to the castle.

I understand what they are trying to do, just believe it will add capacity but not unclog the hub.

 

[SpectroMan93]

In theory yes. I disagree with their statistics though.

The bypass dumps right at the edge of the hub. But during the evening shows how do guests reach the hub? Shy of going through the terrace to reach the bypass guests will still have to plow through all the lingering guests in the hub to reach to the bypass.

All the expanded hub will do is push the guests farther up Main Street, closer to the castle. It will dump even more guests into the hub. The portion prior viewing from farther away from the castle during wishes and the projection show. Making the hub bigger will just pull the guests partially off Main Street and into the hub making the hub a larger but equally congested clog. My projection is less guests on Main Street and even more guests in the hub trying to get closer to the castle.

I understand what they are trying to do, just believe it will add capacity but not unclog the hub.

I remember the idea was thrown around here that the outer ring should be used as a guest traffic area during the fireworks, people not being allowed to use it as a viewing area. My main concern isn't with the expansion itself, but with how Disney will utilize it. And unfortunately, as long as there are fireworks, there will always be a capacity problem, no matter how large they expand the hub. It comes with being the most attended park in the world. Though I may be wrong, but Disneyland seems to handle it's crowds during nighttime entertainment more effectively than MK. Any ideas as to why?

 

[Gabe1]

I remember the idea was thrown around here that the outer ring should be used as a guest traffic area during the fireworks, people not being allowed to use it as a viewing area. My main concern isn't with the expansion itself, but with how Disney will utilize it. And unfortunately, as long as there are fireworks, there will always be a capacity problem, no matter how large they expand the hub. It comes with being the most attended park in the world. Though I may be wrong, but Disneyland seems to handle it's crowds during nighttime entertainment more effectively than MK. Any ideas as to why?

And that was my point many posts back. Create a fireworks show that you don't need to stuff all these guests into a small footprint like the Hub.

I'm thinking trying to keep a path clear during the fireworks will be like the police trying to keep a path clear in Time Square on NYE for the ball drop.

 

[Rob562]

Though I may be wrong, but Disneyland seems to handle it's crowds during nighttime entertainment more effectively than MK. Any ideas as to why?

My theory on Disneyland vs. MK traffic patterns is that since Disneyland is more of a "locals" park, there's a much higher percentage of repeat visitors to Disneyland on any given night. That means that a larger percentage have been there for fireworks and other traffic issues and thus know the routine and what they're in for, including the one-way "swirling Hub" traffic flow.

Compare that to MK where a much greater percentage of people are first-timers or are much less frequent visitors than those in Disneyland, and you get a ton of people who don't know what to expect, have no idea where they're going who either aimlessly try to go somewhere before and after the fireworks, or just turn and join the herd mentality toward the exit.

-Rob

 

[Lord_Vader]

I remember the idea was thrown around here that the outer ring should be used as a guest traffic area during the fireworks, people not being allowed to use it as a viewing area. My main concern isn't with the expansion itself, but with how Disney will utilize it. And unfortunately, as long as there are fireworks, there will always be a capacity problem, no matter how large they expand the hub. It comes with being the most attended park in the world. Though I may be wrong, but Disneyland seems to handle it's crowds during nighttime entertainment more effectively than MK. Any ideas as to why?

My guess, most visitors are local so are used to the process at DL as opposed to MK where most guests are out of town visitors who visit at most once a every year or two and simply don't think about it.

 

[FerretAfros]

My theory on Disneyland vs. MK traffic patterns is that since Disneyland is more of a "locals" park, there's a much higher percentage of repeat visitors to Disneyland on any given night. That means that a larger percentage have been there for fireworks and other traffic issues and thus know the routine and what they're in for, including the one-way "swirling Hub" traffic flow.

Compare that to MK where a much greater percentage of people are first-timers or are much less frequent visitors than those in Disneyland, and you get a ton of people who don't know what to expect, have no idea where they're going who either aimlessly try to go somewhere before and after the fireworks, or just turn and join the herd mentality toward the exit.

-Rob

Guest expectation is a huge part of it. With all the repeat visitors at DL, they know to expect that there are certain areas where you're not allowed to stop and watch, areas where you're not allowed to sit, and that there's probably going to be a "next time" in case something doesn't work out. I wonder how a MK fireworks cancellation would go at MK; during certain times of year it's quite common at DL, and people are somewhat disappointed but move on with their trip quickly

The operations team at DL also invests in an army of crowd control CMs to make it all work. Starting with preparation for the first parade, there are swarms of people on Main Street directing traffic. As evening comes, they rearrange all the benches in the hub to block off sections for viewing, for traffic, and emergency routes (imagine that: benches and crowd control can work together!). MK has a significantly smaller crew trying to keep order in the hub, and fewer tools and strategies to work with, and as a result they have less power in keeping things efficient

I fear that MK is doing this construction work because they think it will allow them to use fewer crowd control CMs. However, in order to get something that effectively balances viewing areas and traffic, they really do need to have a balance of usable pathways and CMs to make sure that guests are in the right places

 

[MissM]

The operations team at DL also invests in an army of crowd control CMs to make it all work. Starting with preparation for the first parade, there are swarms of people on Main Street directing traffic. As evening comes, they rearrange all the benches in the hub to block off sections for viewing, for traffic, and emergency routes (imagine that: benches and crowd control can work together!). MK has a significantly smaller crew trying to keep order in the hub, and fewer tools and strategies to work with, and as a result they have less power in keeping things efficient

I've seen WDW do this - once. On New Year's Eve two years ago, MK's walkways were TOTALLY structured. Everything was one-way paths and it was strongly enforced. Now, it made for roundabout routes and longer distances between two areas but traffic kept moving. Yes it was a packed but you could move and while it was a bit inconvenient, it beat being smooshed into a seething, unmoving wall of people. Simply put, it worked.

Compared to this past holiday season...we were there on Christmas Eve. Tom Staggs can brag to media all he wants that FP+ allowed them to "accommodate" 3,000 more people in Magic Kingdom but having been there, that's some serious bull$@#%. No one was "accommodated" in the slightest. With ZERO crowd control and the backstage bypass not even open, there was a couple hour period between parade and fireworks where you literally could not get to the exit. It was a shark feeding frenzy. It was so bad that Love was so disgusted he still doesn't want to go back. (And WDW is somewhere we've both loved since we were both kids.)

If WDW wants to control crowds and flow, they can. But if they chose not to, it's just going to be even MORE of a disaster with even MORE people trying to cram into the expanded Hub area.

 

[harryk]

I still see lots of trees which cause people to bunch up so as to see fireworks without trees in the sight lines.
All this work - and trees are still going to be there blocking sight lines. Why bother?

 

[JungleTrekFan]

There have been several experiments over the last year during peak periods with temporary venues in A-land. While limited in what I can share, I can tell you that money is being spent. There is a domino effect with these changes that affect several business lines.... And the first thing that needed to happen is already taking shape ( Tink getting evicted)

Yep, I have heard the same, as well as some people seeing some of the new permanent set pieces back by DHS Central Shops, which you pass on the backlot tour. I don’t know how i feel about the location though, but i find most characters in that location as strange, just me.

 

[COProgressFan]

The operations team at DL also invests in an army of crowd control CMs to make it all work. Starting with preparation for the first parade, there are swarms of people on Main Street directing traffic. As evening comes, they rearrange all the benches in the hub to block off sections for viewing, for traffic, and emergency routes (imagine that: benches and crowd control can work together!). MK has a significantly smaller crew trying to keep order in the hub, and fewer tools and strategies to work with, and as a result they have less power in keeping things efficient

I've seen WDW do this - once. On New Year's Eve two years ago, MK's walkways were TOTALLY structured. Everything was one-way paths and it was strongly enforced. Now, it made for roundabout routes and longer distances between two areas but traffic kept moving. Yes it was a packed but you could move and while it was a bit inconvenient, it beat being smooshed into a seething, unmoving wall of people. Simply put, it worked.

Compared to this past holiday season...we were there on Christmas Eve. Tom Staggs can brag to media all he wants that FP+ allowed them to "accommodate" 3,000 more people in Magic Kingdom but having been there, that's some serious bull$@#%. No one was "accommodated" in the slightest. With ZERO crowd control and the backstage bypass not even open, there was a couple hour period between parade and fireworks where you literally could not get to the exit. It was a shark feeding frenzy. It was so bad that Love was so disgusted he still doesn't want to go back. (And WDW is somewhere we've both loved since we were both kids.)

If WDW wants to control crowds and flow, they can. But if they chose not to, it's just going to be even MORE of a disaster with even MORE people trying to cram into the expanded Hub area.

Basically, it sounds like the MK can address this problem if they put more resources into it. They simply don't want to pay the labor to make it happen. Especially when labor hours are being cut left and right to make up for Nextgen cost overruns.

Seriously, for anyone who's never been to DL on a weekend night -- the park can be jampacked, they'll run multiple Fantasmics and fireworks -- and there is a small army of CM's who are directing traffic in a very orderly pattern. You're still in a crowd of wall-to-wall people, but it just feels safer, because you're generally moving together in the same direction. Generally, at the MK, its every man, woman and screaming child for himself.

 

[note2001]

I still see lots of trees which cause people to bunch up so as to see fireworks without trees in the sight lines.
All this work - and trees are still going to be there blocking sight lines. Why bother?

Did you read this thread at all? I realize it's huge with over 50 pages, but trees are among the most discussed items, on every page. There are many posts well worth reading.