Long live the Eastern Gateway or how I learned to love the Anaheim City Council after the election.

[Disney Irish]

One of the things mentioned about these battery operated (Charging is done from underground wireless charging, similar to how Finding Nemo Subs are charged, or the Grove (LA) trolley system (Tracked but no overhead wires) trolleys, the doors are right at ground level, so multiple doors that can load wheelchairs, strollers, wheeled luggage, etc. without needing ramps, etc.

That is a plus for all parties going in and out of the Resort District.

I hope a serious look is taken at that system. Heck, if someone sweet talks Josh maybe Disney might want to sponsor the system.

 

[Darkbeer1]

That is a plus for all parties going in and out of the Resort District.

I hope a serious look is taken at that system. Heck, if someone sweet talks Josh maybe Disney might want to sponsor the system.

The funding for the project looks like will come from a variety of options, such as Convention Center Profits, and the ATN (aka TOT and ATID taxes, and resort operators donations).

So yes, it is expected that resort guests and the Disneyland Resort will be helping out. Of course, where it will stop and what option is chosen will impact those decisions.

Right now, the only thing that will be happening is that city staff will do an initial study that will allow more detailed decisions to be made in regards to the next step.

 

[Disney Irish]

The funding for the project looks like will come from a variety of options, such as Convention Center Profits, and the ATN (aka TOT and ATID taxes, and resort operators donations).

So yes, it is expected that resort guests and the Disneyland Resort will be helping out. Of course, where it will stop and what option is chosen will impact those decisions.

Right now, the only thing that will be happening is that city staff will do an initial study that will allow more detailed decisions to be made in regards to the next step.

It'd be interesting to see if all Disney buses could also be replaced by a similar system.

 

[Darkbeer1]

It'd be interesting to see if all Disney buses could also be replaced by a similar system.

Well, ART Route 20, the Toy Story Buses, are scheduled to become all electric in the next few years. These buses are fully street legal.

Of course, if the new ARTIC to Convention Center system works well, of course many folks will be looking to use it, not just in Anaheim.

 

[Touchdown]

Have you been to Black Tap yet? Haven’t been to the Anaheim one yet but the Vegas one was very good.

 

[lazyboy97o]

It'd be interesting to see if all Disney buses could also be replaced by a similar system.

A trackless streetcar is a bus.

 

[Darkbeer1]

The version being looked at is a driverless system that uses guidewires in the roadway and GPS devices to operate.

 

[Disney Irish]

A trackless streetcar is a bus.

Nope, its different.

 

[Darkbeer1]

The Electric Buses that ART are getting don't charge during service, only when it returns to the bus yard.

The Trolley system will charge at the stops. (Think like how a Cell Phone charges when placed on a charging pad wirelessly)

A trolley will only go on a fixed route and not change lanes, go on a detour, etc. An electric bus can go wherever it wants, change routes, make detours.

 

[FerretAfros]

How would this new transit system be different from the ARC fixed-guideway system that was bandied about for much of the last decade? As I recall, various iterations of that included stops at ARTIC, the Platinum Triangle, the future Pumbaa garage, and Convention Center. Why was that project cancelled after so many years, and what makes them think that this latest version will be any different?

I was in closed-door meetings for related projects with City and OCTA staff (along with representatives of other local/regional transit agencies) circa 2011, and everybody at the time acted like the project was a sure thing, despite not knowing basics like the type of vehicle/system or whether it would be mixed in with street traffic. They were working on an accelerated schedule in order to qualify for stimulus funding as a shovel-ready project, but that ship has long since sailed.

The fixed-guideway system seemed to be in serious talks from the late 00's, until just a few years ago. I think it finally faded away around the same time the "eastern gateway" phase was coined and those plans began to be developed beyond the conceptual level. The number of times the original project was modified, delayed, and restarted gives me serious doubts that we'll ever see anything come from the latest proposal.

A trackless streetcar is a bus.

This. Whether it's dedicated right-of-way, electric, driverless, disguised to look like an old-timey trolley, use placemaking at the stops, or have any number of other whizzbang features, it sounds like this latest proposal will ultimately be a bus system. That's not a bad thing, but we need to call a spade a spade.

There are some obvious advantages to using various bus systems like the low start-up cost, low maintenance cost, lack of specialized operations training, easy to scale service up/down, and ability to reroute around disabled vehicles. The disadvantages are primarily superficial, since a bus doesn't seem as sleek and sexy, approachable, or reliable as a dedicated fixed-guideway system, but that's all easily overcome with the proper window dressings, especially on a point-to-point tourist-oriented shuttle like this.

 

[Darkbeer1]

A Street Car system is being built in Santa Ana and Garden Grove. It will end on Harbor near the Anaheim border.

Vibrant. Diverse. Growing.

octa.net

 

[planodisney]

Darkbeer, what are the politics in this that are so bad that Disney would throw money away?
The single thing I least understand, is with the current occupancy rates in Anaheim, Disney’s own occupancy rates and the prices they are getting per night, why they don’t have 2 hotels under construction.
I just don’t understand this. Meanwhile I can keep track of the new hotels, resorts, DVC’s constantly being built in Orlando which doesn’t have the occupancy rates of DLR.
Can you shed some light on this please?
Thanks!!!

 

[Darkbeer1]

I don't have time to write a book, the posts are here using search.

But here is the quick version.

UNITE HERE, a very political union, who represents the DLR Hotels, but also many other Hotels in the Southland has been campaigning on a Disney is Evil campaign for the last ten years or so.

They got a measure on the Anaheim ballot that would take away the control of wage increases from Disney to what the Union wanted if Disney had built the 4th Hotel with an approved city rebate program.

Disney, by cancelling the Hotel got out of the ballot measure.

So, to make the point, Disney has publically stated that they won't build a new Hotel in Anaheim for the forseeable future.

Also, it deprives UNITE HERE from getting new members.

 

[Disney Irish]

This. Whether it's dedicated right-of-way, electric, driverless, disguised to look like an old-timey trolley, use placemaking at the stops, or have any number of other whizzbang features, it sounds like this latest proposal will ultimately be a bus system. That's not a bad thing, but we need to call a spade a spade.

There are some obvious advantages to using various bus systems like the low start-up cost, low maintenance cost, lack of specialized operations training, easy to scale service up/down, and ability to reroute around disabled vehicles. The disadvantages are primarily superficial, since a bus doesn't seem as sleek and sexy, approachable, or reliable as a dedicated fixed-guideway system, but that's all easily overcome with the proper window dressings, especially on a point-to-point tourist-oriented shuttle like this.

I'll leave the political stuff to Darkbeer. But on this, think of it as still a fixed-guideway system without the large expense of laying down physical track and/or a guide wire overhead. Instead is uses sensors embedded into the ground and GPS to go along a predefined path and doesn't veer off that path, just like a fixed-guideway system. So it has a low startup cost, with also low maintenance cost, and doesn't require a lot of specialized training more than any other streetcar system. And can if approved be autonomous like other fixed-guideway systems out there, buses currently can't.

So call it a bus if you want, because it does have rubber wheels, but the term bus has a negative connotation to a lot of people. A "trackless trolley" or "trackless streetcar" has a better appeal.

 

[Darkbeer1]

So call it a bus if you want, because it does have rubber wheels, but the term bus has a negative connotation to a lot of people. A "trackless trolley" or "trackless streetcar" has a better appeal.

And that is a key political point

 

[lazyboy97o]

Nope, its different.

The Electric Buses that ART are getting don't charge during service, only when it returns to the bus yard.

The Trolley system will charge at the stops. (Think like how a Cell Phone charges when placed on a charging pad wirelessly)

A trolley will only go on a fixed route and not change lanes, go on a detour, etc. An electric bus can go wherever it wants, change routes, make detours.

Its a bus. Being driverless, articulated, having inductive charging or being limited to a very specific route do not change that.

This is definitely not a trolley. Trolleys and trolleybuses use overhead power lines. Trolleybuses cannot deviate from their route and they’re still buses.

Bus rapid transit also has dedicated routes and level loading.

 

[planodisney]

Thanks Darkbeer, I knew most of those details but I honestly thought Disney would go back to the drawing board as quickly as possible because NOT building a new hotel would losing a huge future revenue stream. Guess I didn’t know it was that bad.
Will any of these kinds of issues ever create a somewhat more moderate political climate out there. I’m not talking social politics here but it seams like we could at least get a pro business Democratic Party out there as the opposing party since conservatives are unwelcome.

 

[Disney Irish]

Its a bus. Being driverless, articulated, having inductive charging or being limited to a very specific route do not change that.

This is definitely not a trolley. Trolleys and trolleybuses use overhead power lines. Trolleybuses cannot deviate from their route and they’re still buses.

Bus rapid transit also has dedicated routes and level loading.

Call it whatever you like. The trains themselves are built to look similar to light rail trains but instead of rail wheels to go along a rail it uses rubber tires.

And as I posted before the term "bus" has a negative connotation to a lot of people. A "trackless trolley", "trackless streetcar", "trackless tram" all have a better appeal.

 

[lazyboy97o]

Call it whatever you like. The trains themselves are build similar to light rail trains but instead of rail wheels to go along a rail it uses rubber tires.

And as I posted before the term "bus" has a negative connotation to a lot of people. A "trackless trolley", "trackless streetcar", "trackless tram" all have a better appeal.

You’re basically repeating what various streetcar companies said when they started switching lines from streetcars to buses nearly a century ago.

 

[Darkbeer1]

Thanks Darrkbeer, I knew most of those details but I honestly thought Disney would go back to the drawing board as quickly as possible because NOT building a new hotel would losing a huge future revenue stream. Guess I didn’t know it was that bad.
Will any of these kinds of issues ever create a somewhat more moderate political climate out there. I’m not talking social politics here but it seams like we could at least get a pro business Democratic Party out there as the opposing party since conservatives are unwelcome.

Anaheim is about a 50/50% mix, 5 out of the 7 current members of the council are GOP members.

Back in the last council, the ratio was 6 to 1, but had 4 "Disney is Evil" members.

I work with a pro business Democrat on a regular basis, and one I call a friend.. (An openly Gay Democrat, who I publicly supported for office).

On the other hand, my other West Anaheim candidate is supposedly a conservative Republican, who is siding more with progressive liberals tan any other councilmember besides Dr. Moreno. And is a "Disney is Evil" member.

The party title really isn't that important in the city level.

In the county, 4 out of 5 Board of Supervisors are GOP members.