People like free, it’s going to be hard to overcome that. Not only that TSL busses run every 10 min, ART busses are much less frequent. The only way you lower use of TSL busses is either charging pedestrians or not allowing them into the lot.
-
Welcome to the WDWMAGIC.COM Forums!
Please take a look around, and feel free to sign up and join the community.
Long live the Eastern Gateway or how I learned to love the Anaheim City Council after the election.
- Thread starter truecoat
- Start date
People like free, it’s going to be hard to overcome that. Not only that TSL busses run every 10 min, ART busses are much less frequent. The only way you lower use of TSL busses is either charging pedestrians or not allowing them into the lot.
Old Mouseketeer
Well-Known Member
I was at that first exhibition game between the Angels and the Giants. Somewhere in storage I have a cardboard fan that was give out free. Neighbors had an extra ticket and invited me.
socalifornian
Well-Known Member
Or some kind of peoplemover that speeds up when it’s not at a station. Could double as gate 3 transpo if/when the time comes
FerretAfros
Well-Known Member
You're sort of hinting at my takeaway from the original design, and one that was overlooked by most stakeholders at the time: It was great for Disney's purposes, but it was bad urban design (regardless of aesthetics). Disney really only focused on their need (getting bodies from the parking structure to the main entrance) without accounting for the context of its surroundings. That may work in WDW with the blessing of size, but Anaheim is a different animal and needs a different solution.
While everybody seems to agree that this corridor has too many conflict points between pedestrians and vehicles, it seems that the solution is still up for debate. The notion of adding pedestrian bridges to separate them could work, but it's a very backward-thinking concept, rooted in mid-century suburban design philosophies that have largely been abandoned in recent decades as density has increased in the US. Instead of favoring the most common mode of transportation in the last part of the journey (how do you get from the parking lot into the restaurant?), it focuses on the one that is least compatible with others. It makes the trip more circuitous for pedestrians, separates them from their origin and destination points, and generally makes them feel unwanted. The Las Vegas Strip is a great example of how to make things really inconvenient and unpleasant for pedestrians.
Contemporary urban design would instead do more to make the Harbor Blvd corridor more pedestrian-friendly, while finding ways to remove as much vehicular traffic as possible. There would still need to be vehicular access for people, deliveries, and transit to the businesses between Katella and Ball Rd (though perhaps some vehicular entrances could be consolidated and/or accessed from the rear), but a large portion of that traffic could be rerouted onto adjacent streets that are already more auto-centric. I also wouldn't be opposed to removing the I-5 interchange, redirecting those vehicles to access the resort from the existing interchanges at the periphery of the Resort District, but that's obviously much bigger than a simple parking garage.
A grade-separated crossing of some kind (whether that's a pedestrian bridge, trams, transit, etc.) would likely be needed to move people from the parking structure to the theme parks, but could be integrated more seamlessly into the predominant routes of travel, rather than forcing people to backtrack into alleys and auto-centric areas. Instead of finding ways to get the pedestrians away from the cars, why not focus on ways to get the cars away from the pedestrians?
As it stands now, Harbor Blvd isn't the best pedestrian environment, but it's not half bad considering what it has to deal with. This project has the potential to really make the area into something that meets the area's current needs and allows it to grow into the future. The concept that they put in front of the Council simply wasn't good urban design.
In the lead up to DCA's launch, there was a lot of great collaborative work to rebuild the Resort District in a way that made sense for the assumed uses. Two and a half decades later, it may be time for a similar collaboration to think about what this area should look like in the future. The piecemeal approach proposed by Disney wouldn't have made meaningful improvements, and would have removed a lot of opportunities for a proper reconsideration.
Darkbeer1
Well-Known Member
There is NO WAY to switch traffic off of Harbor, Ball and Katella. There are No other real options for vehicles due to the area blocked by the DLR and the Convention Center.
These are used by MANY, MANY locals that are not going TO the Resort Area, but have to get by it.
You want to turn the residents/voters against Disney and the City Council, the easiest way to even hint at closing/reducing those three roads in the area. The best solution is to get Visitors off those three roads. But if you are a guest with Luggage, there is no real other option than using a vehicle of some sort to get to your Hotel. Nor is there other options for deliveries to businesses, trucks to the Convention Center, etc.
Also, how do the residents get to the Platinum Triangle, Angel Stadium and the Honda Center? Also large blocks of land that do not allow roads through them, you have to place the traffic somewhere.
It isn't Disney's job to design traffic flow on city streets. It is the City's job. Disney has the obligation to work with the city to help make the City Plans possible. And that includes pedestrian flow that is not on Disney owned property.
These are used by MANY, MANY locals that are not going TO the Resort Area, but have to get by it.
You want to turn the residents/voters against Disney and the City Council, the easiest way to even hint at closing/reducing those three roads in the area. The best solution is to get Visitors off those three roads. But if you are a guest with Luggage, there is no real other option than using a vehicle of some sort to get to your Hotel. Nor is there other options for deliveries to businesses, trucks to the Convention Center, etc.
Also, how do the residents get to the Platinum Triangle, Angel Stadium and the Honda Center? Also large blocks of land that do not allow roads through them, you have to place the traffic somewhere.
It isn't Disney's job to design traffic flow on city streets. It is the City's job. Disney has the obligation to work with the city to help make the City Plans possible. And that includes pedestrian flow that is not on Disney owned property.
Darkbeer1
Well-Known Member
OK, I have been trying to think about Pedestrian Bridges in the city of Anaheim.
NOTE: Edited to add one I forgot.
There are two active ones. The one over Disneyland Drive that acts as a pedestrian walkway for DtD. This was done in1999 - 2000 by mainly lowering the roadway under the grade. Some of the needed distance was done by slightly raising the Grade. (The Monorail track limited how much the grade could be elevated). Then the bridge was built prior to Disneyland Drive opening in 2000.
The other one is at ARTIC, going from the 3rd level of the station to the actual train tracks. The bridges goes over roadways and train tracks. Elevators and stairs get you from the bridge to the loading platforms.
One is under construction, and that is the Magic Way Bridge. Once again, the bridge is connected to a building/structure on one side, and a slightly sloped ramp is the other end.
And 4 in some sort of planning stage.
The one furthest along is the Honda Center-ARTIC bridge over Katella. This extra wide bridge will be gently sloped, so no need for elevators. It is more of an urban park feeling (Good example is the I-15 in North Park (San Diego). This part of the freeway (last segment that completed the Federal Interstate system) was built in a trench, then block long bridges were placed over them, connecting the neighborhood that remained at the decades old ground level). Very important for the 2028 Olympics, as it is expected that the majority of ticket holders will use the train to go to/from the Honda Center (The Anaheim Arena or Center will be the name when hosting the Olympics).
Then the three Resort area ones, and possibly more. But the city is looking at Vegas for its solution, and while some don't like it, it has dramatically improved pedestrian safety based on actual statistics.
NOTE: Edited to add one I forgot.
There are two active ones. The one over Disneyland Drive that acts as a pedestrian walkway for DtD. This was done in1999 - 2000 by mainly lowering the roadway under the grade. Some of the needed distance was done by slightly raising the Grade. (The Monorail track limited how much the grade could be elevated). Then the bridge was built prior to Disneyland Drive opening in 2000.
The other one is at ARTIC, going from the 3rd level of the station to the actual train tracks. The bridges goes over roadways and train tracks. Elevators and stairs get you from the bridge to the loading platforms.
One is under construction, and that is the Magic Way Bridge. Once again, the bridge is connected to a building/structure on one side, and a slightly sloped ramp is the other end.
And 4 in some sort of planning stage.
The one furthest along is the Honda Center-ARTIC bridge over Katella. This extra wide bridge will be gently sloped, so no need for elevators. It is more of an urban park feeling (Good example is the I-15 in North Park (San Diego). This part of the freeway (last segment that completed the Federal Interstate system) was built in a trench, then block long bridges were placed over them, connecting the neighborhood that remained at the decades old ground level). Very important for the 2028 Olympics, as it is expected that the majority of ticket holders will use the train to go to/from the Honda Center (The Anaheim Arena or Center will be the name when hosting the Olympics).
Then the three Resort area ones, and possibly more. But the city is looking at Vegas for its solution, and while some don't like it, it has dramatically improved pedestrian safety based on actual statistics.
Last edited:
socalifornian
Well-Known Member
Are they considering a monorail like Vegas?
Darkbeer1
Well-Known Member
The committee to look at all possibilities has not been formed yet. I am a potential member. We will look at everything, but at first glance, no, as it has been studied in the past, and failed to make the cut. WDW's Gondolas is a decent contender.
Last edited:
FerretAfros
Well-Known Member
It may be a tough pill to swallow, but it's clear that the area doesn't function with its current design and needs a high-level overhaul. The road is operating beyond its capacity, and travel times have suffered; it doesn't work for tourists nor does it work for locals. This means that there need to be changes that will impact the current uses for vehicles and pedestrians, regardless of whether the people using it are residents or visitors.
Using various traffic calming measures (lane width reduction, fewer lanes, lower speed limits, pedestrian signal prioritization, etc), they could easily disincentivize Harbor Blvd in a way that still allows complete access to that corridor, but really encourages the use of alternate routes where possible. Anaheim Blvd in particular has the capacity to pick up a lot of the trips with origin and end points beyond Ball and Katella; with proper signal prioritization and synchronization for left turns, it's possible that it could even reduce overall travel times. The joy of Anaheim's grid system is that there's always another option nearby.
By and large, most of Orange County remains very suburban and auto-centric. However, this corridor's higher density and reliance on pedestrians make for a much more urban environment (both in the existing condition and for the foreseeable future); any major changes need to use an appropriate design philosophy that's substantially different from the larger surrounding area.
I agree that it's the City's job to make traffic improvements, and just as it's their prerogative to reject designs that don't work with their goals. While I think the Eastern Gateway was cancelled for the wrong reasons (aesthetics), the city really dodged a bullet when it was cancelled.
A new parking structure of that magnitude would add thousands of vehicles per hour to the roads during peak hours and change the traffic patterns throughout the Resort District. It's a big project that will have significant impacts to the surrounding area, and shouldn't be designed in a vacuum. It was foolish of Disney to ever think that they could build something like that without taking other stakeholders' considerations into account, even if the structure itself was entirely on their own property. It was bad design that didn't take into account the larger context that it was working within.
NobodyElse
Well-Known Member
Let's not forget Downtown Disney (as nicely disguised as it is).
Darkbeer1
Well-Known Member
OK, Realistic options. To the South, Chapman doesn't work going west, both Lisa and I have tried it, but multiple lumps (Traffic Calming devices some call bumps) due to being a residential street. So you go to Garden Grove Boulevard south of Katella.
Lincoln is the next main road north of Ball, also La Palma.
Anaheim Blvd/Haster stops at the 22, so really State College is the option East of Harbor. And Euclid is the option West of Harbor. Then Brookhurst or Beach
My nearest main streets are Ball and either Brookhurst or Magnolia.
We hardly ever get down to Garden Grove, so our main options are Ball, Katella, Lincoln and La Palma in an East/West direction. Our Gym is at Katella and Euclid, Doctor's office is La Palma and Euclid. Our main mall is the Buena Park Mall near La Palma and Beach. Knott's is also right there. We use Magnolia to connect to the 91. Use Lincoln (or Broadway) to get to Ctr City and City Hall. But to get to the I-5, it is usually Ball or Katella, tend to use the Gene Autry/Disney Way Carpool exit the most, so that is Katella to Haster. So if we opt of Disney Way, we then HAVE to use Harbor to get to Ball, if it is Gene Autry, it is Katella going Westbound. Common locations in the area, I go to the Convention Center, and the Visit Anaheim/Chamber of Commerce offices are at State College and Orangewood next to Angel Stadium. To get to the 22, it is usually Beach. Lisa works in Santa Ana next to the Old Courthouse. So the I-5 is her main commute, and is usually on Katella or Ball to access the I-5, so that is going right through the Resort Area daily. Our Costco is on Harbor in Fullerton. Gas is either there, or the Berri Brothers at Ball and Brookhurst. (Best prices in the area usually)
Realistically, If you want MAJOR North-South roads, Beach, Harbor, I-5 and due to the Santa Ana River, Main Street is the next option. especially heading South.
And as stated earlier, Garden Grove Blvd is the East-West option south of Ball-Katella, or the 22. North of the Option, La Palma is the next Major Road or the 91.
And you have to look at Major facilities that take over multiple blocks and can't be moved, The DLR, Convention Center, Angel Stadium, ARTIC and Honda Center. So that blocks east-west options, Katella is the main pathway, and when the new Pedestrian bridge is completed, cements that road for 57 access and places farther east.
As for traffic calming on Harbor, once again, you will have the residents/voters rise up. That is why in the current plans, moving buses and other things to Manchester is the idea. Harbor is not just a Major Anaheim Road, but Garden Grove and other cities south are strong users, Fullerton to the North. The Fullerton Train Station was placed there, and created Harbor as a Main road in the 1950's, you can't change that, as things were built around it.
The beauty of Pummba, as it was designed in the 1990's as the main access from the North Bound I-5 access (M&F was the South bound, and the Carpool exit to Disneyland Dr.) Cars get off at either the Disney Way Carpool exit, or the Katella regular exit. At the end of the Katella off ramp, it is straight onto Disney Way. That is a very short path to Pummba, just like the Ball Road overpass works for M&F.
Pumbaa is a MUCH better option than the Toy Story Lot, which uses Harbor, and now the former Katella CM Lot entrance for Bullseye. Replacing Toy Story with Pumbaa would drastically improve the city streets.
Plus moving the Transportation Plaza off of Harbor onto Manchester/Clementine is another positive improvement.
When the I-5 improvements, along with nearby streets, were made in the 1990's, they expected Pumbaa to be built, and that is the beauty of the Eastern Gateway.
When Disney opted to buy and set up the Toy Story Lot instead, that added to the mess to the area.
Darkbeer1
Well-Known Member
You are totally correct! I spaced on it.
Darkbeer1
Well-Known Member
Let me add on point regarding the city. The City Owned Convention Center is at Harbor and Katella. They don't want calming, they want more vehicle lanes, move Pedestrians off the streets and intersections and onto Bridges and separated walkways on paths away from Harbor and Katella. They do want the Gene Autry extension to move vehicles off of Katella to their front door (Convention Way). In fact, they would like some of the Toy Story Lot to build their own new parking structure at Harbor and Convention Way.
But they need the truck access for the Convention Center needs (mainly West St. (aka Disneyland Drive) and Katella.
And the non-Disney Hotels owners are a key player, they want good, faster access to their Hotels, and many of them have Harbor or Katella as their main driveways.
With all the Delivery Trucks in the area, Lane Width reduction or eliminating traffic lanes is a non-starter. The politics in the area, and the fact the Resort Districts produces close to half the City's budget, will making any type of vehicle reduction a non-starter.
But they need the truck access for the Convention Center needs (mainly West St. (aka Disneyland Drive) and Katella.
And the non-Disney Hotels owners are a key player, they want good, faster access to their Hotels, and many of them have Harbor or Katella as their main driveways.
With all the Delivery Trucks in the area, Lane Width reduction or eliminating traffic lanes is a non-starter. The politics in the area, and the fact the Resort Districts produces close to half the City's budget, will making any type of vehicle reduction a non-starter.
lazyboy97o
Well-Known Member
You’re stuck on methods that proven themselves to not work time and time again. In a lot of situations traffic calming and road diets can improve throughput because they reduce the many points of conflict that come from just letting cars eat up more and more space.
Darkbeer1
Well-Known Member
A solution HAS to match up with the specific situation. In the Resort Area, things were done in the 1950's, before that, then in the 1960's and beyond that has placed things in locations that Can't be moved.
The options are to try and place things on the perimeter, and increase transit options. But many things can't be moved and placed elsewhere, plus the costs to change/move the infrastructure is a key issue. Just like Las Vegas.
Bicycles is just not going to make a difference in a tourism district, and that has been proven many times. In LA, they tried a road diet which majorly failed and had to be removed near the ocean.
While adding traffic lanes would be nice, that is not an option here. OK, the Gene Autry Way extension is the one main option.
Opening Pumbaa and having guests use Haster to get to Gene Autry Way, and the special carpool entrances/exits to both NB and SB I-5 will be a great help. One drawback is that SB-1 funds from the state cannot be used for the Gene Autry extension due to rules placed on the money. A new Transit option from ARTIC/Angel Stadium/Honda Center to the Convention Center/DLR and Hotels is another good goal. Converting roads for pedestrians/bikes is not a current demand. The only issue is the places where vehicle/pedestrians use the same path. The best and easiest solution is to remove those and place them on separate levels. Either lower one path, such as lowering the road on Disneyland Drive for the DTD bridge, or raise one, as the Magic Way Bridge.
So yes, that is the goal. The ARTIC/Honda Center Bridge is a committed project, and hopefully the Eastern Gateway and its bridge is coming later this year. And then the access to GardenWalk and a bridge over Disney Way, and then through the Shoppertainment area to Katella. And a bridge to the Convention Center, But if anything, expand the sidewalk in the area by using easements onto the touching property instead of going into the street.
Las Vegas improvement have worked, vehicle traffic moved better and faster, so did the Pedestrian pathways. Safety went up, accidents went down.
Darkbeer1
Well-Known Member
If you look at current main Pedestrian areas, I can think of three, Downtown Disney, Anaheim GardenWalk and the Convention Center Grand Plaza (Area between the Marriott and Hilton. The Eastern Gateway expands the path to Disney Way. That and a City Bridge now connects AGW to a pathway from the DL Hotel to the Cheesecake without crossing a roadway. The other city bridge would connect the Grand Plaza, and also other CC pathways, along with the new Westin Pathway that is away from the Katella sidewalk.
The future for pedestrians in the Resort area is not sidewalks, but in pathways built between buildings and similar things. Long Beach has done similar things in its tourism area. Traffic Calming was shut down big time as studies showed it would make matters worse, not better.
The future for pedestrians in the Resort area is not sidewalks, but in pathways built between buildings and similar things. Long Beach has done similar things in its tourism area. Traffic Calming was shut down big time as studies showed it would make matters worse, not better.
Darkbeer1
Well-Known Member
>>Bisnow: Talk about the state of the hospitality industry in Anaheim. There are a lot of things going on. Why are you so bullish on Anaheim and your project?
O'Connell: You see everything that's going on at Disneyland. We [also] have the Angels, Ducks, the greatest convention centers in the nation. ... Now with the new leadership who are pro-business and pro-resort, we're going to get a lot of great things done. Patel: The reason why we have so much faith that a four-diamond luxury hotel will perform in this market is just what Bill had alluded — you have the convention center that recently expanded. As a result of that, you have higher-end conventions that are looking into the market like the medical and pharmaceutical conventions. The [city] didn't really have a luxury offering. ... There are a lot of people that want to stay in higher-end hotels but are not able to find accommodations with the existing inventory, I think the JW will fill that gap.
Bisnow: What are your thoughts on the recent sale of the Anaheim GardenWalk? Historically, that retail center has struggled. Are you working with the new owners to have that same type of synergy like the JW Marriott next to LA Live?
Patel: We've met with the owners. They've done a lot of retail. We've seen some of their plans. We're excited that there is new ownership involved and they are putting dollars in and [attracting] new tenants. We haven't see all of their full plans with re-tenanting and everything they are working on. But, it's important that if we're building a luxury product, there are luxury offerings. We're excited and we're hoping that with new ownership that they'll have higher-end experiences. O'Connell: We're encouraged that they have several tenants that are doing tenant improvements and getting ready to move in. We feel the JW Marriott will be a big asset that will contribute to their success.
Bisnow: What kind of impact will Star Wars land have on the city's hospitality industry?
Patel: Huge impact. [laughing] When Disney California Adventure was revamped and introduced Cars Land, the market saw a sizable demand increase across the board. Star Wars is a larger expansion than that and frankly, has a much more loyal following because they've been around longer. We think there is going to be a pretty sizable impact on the market in a positive way and very excited for [Galaxy's Edge] to open.<<
More at the link
Will Disney still build it’s Eastern Gateway bridge if the city builds the Disney Way bridge over Harbor? The walk will be longer. Will the Disney Way bridge be on the north? Then they need another bridge to cross Disney Way to get to GardenWalk. Or build it closer to the stair entrance next to the parking structure.
Darkbeer1
Well-Known Member
Two different projects. The Disney Bridge will cross Harbor. The City one will cross Disney Way, basically connect Pummba to AGW. The bridge will more than likely be right in front of the Pedestrian entrance behind the Grand Legacy, and then be in front of the Anaheim Hotel. The crosswalk(s) at Harbor will be closed and blocked off. But nothing is set in stone, just wish list stuff now. But the State has plenty of Gas Tax SB1 funds to use for Pedestrian projects, so time to go ask for them, then design and build.