Live-Action ‘Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs’

[mickEblu]

You also said what I quoted and were mistaken.


Excellent! The show is a critical and commercial hit.

I don’t know if I’m mistaken as I haven’t seen the show but is this where you try to get hung up on a technicality because you can’t stand the truth and reality of what I said? My main point was Disney will try to have their cake and eat it too. You ll see those themes on PG 13 shows on Disney + but won’t see them in any major ways with major characters in Disney animated feature films anytime soon.

 

[Disney Irish]

I don’t know if I’m mistaken as I haven’t seen the show but is this where you try to get hung up on a technicality because you can’t stand the truth and reality of what I said? My main point was Disney will try to have their cake and eat it too. You ll see those themes on PG 13 shows on Disney + but won’t see them in any major ways with major characters in Disney animated feature films anytime soon.

I think the point is its not just "themes", Agatha All Along was outright basically in your face in terms of representation, including having the two main female leads kiss for quite a long time. And it was highly rated, better than 80% favorable rating on most rating sites.

Look I have no dog in this fight as it were, but to say that Disney is not going to continue to be progressive in terms of representation due to a few movies that performed badly is in my opinion incorrect. They will back off a bit to make it seem like they are doing something to appease one side, but in the end they will continue to march forward just as they have for decades.

Also none of this has anything to do with this movie in this thread.

 

[Chi84]

I don’t know if I’m mistaken as I haven’t seen the show but is this where you try to get hung up on a technicality because you can’t stand the truth and reality of what I said? My main point was Disney will try to have their cake and eat it too. You ll see those themes on PG 13 shows on Disney + but won’t see them in any major ways with major characters in Disney animated feature films anytime soon.

I don’t understand why establishing your opinion as “truth” is so important to you.

Of course Disney wants to entertain everyone! That’s its business. It’s not taking anything away from you to make others feel welcome and included.

 

[mickEblu]

I don’t understand why establishing your opinion as “truth” is so important to you.

Of course Disney wants to entertain everyone! That’s its business. It’s not taking anything away from you to make others feel welcome and included.

Right but they won’t be pulling a Strange World or Lightyear anytime soon for reasons I’ve already mentioned.

 

[mickEblu]

I think the point is its not just "themes", Agatha All Along was outright basically in your face in terms of representation, including having the two main female leads kiss for quite a long time. And it was highly rated, better than 80% favorable rating on most rating sites.

Look I have no dog in this fight as it were, but to say that Disney is not going to continue to be progressive in terms of representation due to a few movies that performed badly is in my opinion incorrect. They will back off a bit to make it seem like they are doing something to appease one side, but in the end they will continue to march forward just as they have for decades.

Also none of this has anything to do with this movie in this thread.

Exactly. They are already backing off and maybe will try again in 5-10 years. We’ll see but I’m betting you won’t see anything as overt in a Disney animated feature film for at least 10 years. Leadership changes and/ or People forget and make the same mistakes again.

 

[mickEblu]

Anyone who’s watched the show, and even the most cursory glance at anything (positive or negative) published online about it, will tell you that it far, far outstrips Lightyear or Strange World in terms of its queer representation. Its male lead, played by the wonderful Joe Locke of Heartstopper fame, is an openly gay teenage boy portrayed in affectionate interactions with his boyfriend, while Agatha and Rio are long implied to have a romantic history before confirming it by engaging in a full-on kiss (the first lesbian kiss in Marvel history apparently).

You say I’m getting caught up in technicalities when I’m merely responding to the claim you yourself made, exactly as you made it. You’ve now qualified that claim so that the Agatha example no longer undermines it. That you had to do so should tell you something. Perhaps the very clear-cut shift you’ve pointed isn’t as clear as all that.

Ok so you are doing what I said. Got it.

 

[Chi84]

Exactly. They are already backing off and maybe will try again in 5-10 years. We’ll see but I’m betting you won’t see anything as overt in a Disney animated feature film for at least 10 years. Leadership changes and/ or People forget and make the same mistakes again.

People don’t forget. They change and grow.

 

[Disney Irish]

Exactly. They are already backing off and maybe will try again in 5-10 years. We’ll see but I’m betting you won’t see anything as overt in a Disney animated feature film for at least 10 years. Leadership changes and/ or People forget and make the same mistakes again.

Well I wouldn't call it a mistake to have representation in any Disney content, including an animated feature. As I think Disney should be inclusive to all people, not just some. So I don't think it'll take 10 years, and maybe not even 5 years. It'll happen sooner than anyone thinks.

But this has gotten way off topic, as this thread appears to have done for the last couple days and I accept my responsibility in the parts I played in that. So maybe its best to move on from this, or take it elsewhere.

 

[mickEblu]

Well I wouldn't call it a mistake to have representation in any Disney content, including an animated feature. As I think Disney should be inclusive to all people, not just some. So I don't think it'll take 10 years, and maybe not even 5 years. It'll happen sooner than anyone thinks.

But this has gotten way off topic, as this thread appears to have done for the last couple days and I accept my responsibility in the parts I played in that. So maybe its best to move on from this, or take it elsewhere.

So you don’t think it’s a mistake for a business to make a movie that is more likely to lose money? I wonder if shareholders would agree? I guess Disney disagrees with you though as I haven’t seen any of those themes since the two movies I mentioned. Again, we ll see what the future holds. Let me know the next time we see any of that in a Disney animated feature film. Hopefully we re still alive n kickin. If by chance it does happen in the next 5 years I will go out on a limb and say it will not make money.

Haha yes, once one has said their peace it’s time to move on. Never before.

 

[Disney Irish]

So you don’t think it’s a mistake for a business to make a movie that is more likely to lose money? I wonder if shareholders would agree? I guess Disney disagrees with you though as I haven’t seen any of those themes since the two movies I mentioned. Again, we ll see what the future holds. Let me know the next time we see any of that in a Disney animated feature film. Hopefully we re still alive n kickin.

Studios make movies all the time that lose money, that doesn't mean they stop making them just because that happens. So no I don't think it was a mistake they made those movies. Also shareholders have short term memory, can't seeing beyond the most recent quarter. They have basically moved on from whatever it is you think they had an issue with.

Also just because you haven't seen them doesn't mean those themes don't exist in Disney content even recent ones released after the two you mentioned. They may not have been apparent to you, but they were there.

 

[mickEblu]

Studios make movies all the time that lose money, that doesn't mean they stop making them just because that happens. So no I don't think it was a mistake they made those movies. Also shareholders have short term memory, can't seeing beyond the most recent quarter. They have basically moved on from whatever it is you think they had an issue with.

Also just because you haven't seen them doesn't mean those themes don't exist in Disney content even recent ones released after the two you mentioned. They may not have been apparent to you, but they were there.

I’m not sure how much more specific I can get. I was very clear about what we won’t be seeing in a Disney animated feature film anytime soon. Why are you playing dumb? Because your post wouldn’t make any sense if you didn’t?

 

[Disney Irish]

I’m not sure how much more specific I can get. I was very clear about what we won’t be seeing in a Disney animated feature film anytime soon. Why are you playing dumb? Because your post wouldn’t make any sense if you didn’t?

As I have with the other off-topic discussions in this thread I'm trying to remain vague in order to remain within a certain gray area of the forum rules. I try to avoid the ire of the mods as much as possible.

 

[mickEblu]

Elemental postdated both Lightyear and Strange World. Yes, the nonbinary sibling and her* girlfriend were a minor element (!) of the film, but so was the blink-and-you’d-miss-it kiss in Lightyear.

In any case, I don’t think one can draw any sweeping conclusions from such a tiny sample of films.

——
* This is the pronoun used in the film itself.

We’ll see. If we don’t see any of that stuff for the next 5 years that would make it almost 8 years. At that point it would be safe to say I drew the right conclusion. But you never know, something could get green lit from a team wanting to prove the world wrong and most likely lose money again and get Disney in the headlines for all the wrong reasons.

 

[LittleBuford]

I know all of that about @The Mom, and I never assumed she was taking sides nor neglecting her duties.
As I posted, I was just speculating that maybe she/they are just letting members vent for a bit, post Nov. 5th, to get it somewhat out of there systems, before they drop the hammer back down…?
Also, it just kinda’ makes me wonder why there aren’t more mods here.
Another site/forum I was a member of years ago, which had many less members than this one, had 4 mods, not including the site owner.

Whatever’s going on, I hope there’s an end to it soon.

 

[Vegas Disney Fan]

That would be sad. We need more female empowerment messaging than ever these days.

The truth Is that female empowerment does not take away from male empowerment. They can exist in a story in equal measure. Disney found that balance in The Little Mermaid. Prince Eric had his own life and goals apart from Ariel’s, and she accompanied him in the end on a journey to achieve them.

Also, there is a beautiful depiction of a strong, protective father.

Maybe I worded it poorly but I was trying to say I think there will still be female empowerment in the movie, the top priority is just to make an entertaining story though.

Changing the priority doesn’t mean there can’t be “inclusion”, it just frees up the writers to make the best movie possible because they aren’t mandated to do certain things.

No reason you can’t have both though.

If I said make the best Marvel movie you can make the skies the limit, if I said make a Marvel movie but it has to have female leads, has to have female villains, has to have x% of each race, has to have x% of gay people, etc you’re far less likely to make a good movie. In scenario 1 nothing prevents you from making the most amazing girl boss movie ever, but I bet it’ll be a lot better than scenario 2 because you naturally made what you wanted rather than making a check box movie the executives wanted.

 

[Stripes]

I think people want consistency.

When Disney is inconsistent with how they handle similar situations Disney is essentially picking a side.

According to Carano’s own complaint, Disney and Lucasfilm asked her to apologize on several occasions, which she refused to do.

I’m sure Disney had the same talk with Zegler, hence the apology.

I think that makes the situations dissimilar enough to warrant disparate treatment.

What’s inconsistent are those supporting Carano’s lawsuit while shaming Disney for not firing Zegler, especially when filming has already wrapped.

 

[LittleBuford]

According to Carano’s own complaint, Disney and Lucasfilm asked her to apologize on several occasions, which she refused to do.

I’m sure Disney had the same talk with Zegler, hence the apology.

I actually didn’t know that, and I don’t believe it’s been brought up here before. That is an important difference.

 

[Vegas Disney Fan]

I’m trying so hard to resist wading back in, but since I know you’ll respond reasonably, I just want to point out again that Disney cannot fire Zegler at this stage.

They could almost release the exact same statement for Zegler they used to Gina.

For Gina the Disney statement was

“Gina Carano is not currently employed by Lucasfilm and there are no plans for her to be in the future, her social media posts denigrating people based on their cultural and religious identities are abhorrent and unacceptable.”

For Zegler a consistent statement would have been:

“Rachel Zegler is not currently employed by Disney and there are no plans for her to be in the future, her social media posts denigrating people based on their social and political identities are abhorrent and unacceptable.”

 

[Chi84]

According to Carano’s own complaint, Disney and Lucasfilm asked her to apologize on several occasions, which she refused to do.

I’m sure Disney had the same talk with Zegler, hence the apology.

I think that makes the situations dissimilar enough to warrant disparate treatment.

What’s inconsistent are those supporting Carano’s lawsuit while shaming Disney for not firing Zegler, especially when filming has already wrapped.

Also, there is a completely different relationship when it comes to employment and contracts are involved. It's rare that someone on the outside has all the facts, so it's extremely difficult to decide what actions are consistent or inconsistent.

 

[Stripes]

Just as I don’t think celebrities should be put on a pedestal, neither do I think they deserve to be collectively dismissed as uninformed or out of touch. Some say really smart things, others say really silly things, with a whole spectrum in between. In that, they’re no different from the rest of us.

Hence my phrasing…

Certainly. Just because an actor was cast in a famous role doesn‘t mean the actor knows anything about the world or deserves your attention. Most things celebrities say are just dumb.

There are certain celebrities that have intelligent things to say.