Lightning Lane at Walt Disney World

[Dranth]

Yes people can spend whatever. You agreed with the post people are buy-in LL without even knowing wait times and Disney loves it$$$$$. I''ll stick by my sucker comment

By that logic, every skip the line system in existence outside of a real time, surge pricing per ride setup is a waste of money. That is fine if you feel that way but many don't.

For a lot of folks their time, enjoyment and comfort is worth more then what LL typically costs.

I personally find it a waste with this new system but the way I look at it is if they keep driving up prices, less people use it. If less people use it then it makes the LL system better for those that do while also making standby better as less folks are clogging up the system in the LL.

 

[Disstevefan1]

I don’t think most people are knowingly paying $20+ to skip 30 minutes. Instead Disney has created a system where purchase decisions are largely made before you have any idea what the wait will be. They’re selling wait time insurance, in effect. Maybe you’re wasting your money but maybe you need it.

The thing I always laughed at in the free FastPass days where we get our attraction at our return time and see there was little or no need for a FastPass.

Now that is happening to folks paying for a service and it’s no longer a laughing matter.

 

[Epcot81Fan]

The thing I always laughed at in the free FastPass days where we get our attraction at our return time and see there was little or no need for a FastPass.

Now that is happening to folks paying for a service and it’s no longer a laughing matter.

Easy problem to fix.

Just remove some vehicles, shut down sides, etc. to reduce capacity.

Bam! LL’s are now needed!

#disneymath

 

[Disstevefan1]

Easy problem to fix.

Just remove some vehicles, shut down sides, etc. to reduce capacity.

Bam! LL’s are now needed!

#disneymath

 

[KDM31091]

According to thrill data stats, LL's are selling out days in advance for many popular attractions. I know Disney doesn't really care about locals, but this move really screwed them. I don't buy LLs anyway, but I don't even have the option really at this point, other than for things that don't require it. All the "good" LLs are gone. Why does Disney insist on making this so complex and stressful?

Correct me if I'm wrong--at Universal you buy the service and just walk up to the attraction and use the express line. No drama, no apps, no booking days ahead of time, no locking a bunch of locals out, etc. Why can't Disney simplify this? I know people cried that they wanted to plan ahead but this just feels ridiculous. You should not have to wake up at 6am 3 days out to book an attraction.

 

[celluloid]

P T Barnum supposedly said "There is sucker born every minute" and Disney is proving that. IMO

It has been said in more recent decades that it has been misattributed. He did not say that. His competition did as a result of PT Barnum's gaff getting more attention than the original gaff.

 

[C33Mom]

I will keep buying ILL for Cosmic Rewind on all of our Epcot days as long as it’s the only way to ride it more than once a day. I’m on the fence about other rides and LLMP. My time is more valuable than my money and I would buy LLMP every time if there was guaranteed availability and more flexibility to do rides in order I want without getting lucky or staring at my phone all day.

 

[Fido Chuckwagon]

Easy problem to fix.

Just remove some vehicles, shut down sides, etc. to reduce capacity.

Bam! LL’s are now needed!

#disneymath

I believe @lentesta has demonstrated that this really doesn’t seem to be happening.

 

[lentesta]

I believe @lentesta has demonstrated that this really doesn’t seem to be happening.

There's no evidence that WDW is running rides at lower capacity. We've been counting guest exits in the MK for months.

If you want to argue that they've got a perverse incentive not to fix ride downtime, I might listen.

 

[monothingie]

There's no evidence that WDW is running rides at lower capacity. We've been counting guest exits in the MK for months.

If you want to argue that they've got a perverse incentive not to fix ride downtime, I might listen.

Other than having cast members physically load people more slowly, there are not many rides that can even be "run" at a lower capacity. I do believe they play with the standby/LL admission ratio to make sure that standby lines always have a posted minimum wait time that's just high enough incentivize guests to purchase LL. (Whether or not that posted wait time is even accurate)

 

[LSLS]

There's no evidence that WDW is running rides at lower capacity. We've been counting guest exits in the MK for months.

If you want to argue that they've got a perverse incentive not to fix ride downtime, I might listen.

If I remember correctly, it wasn't that they decreased capacity on the rides, but they were posting wildly inaccurate wait times, (not sure if that is done anymore, my most jarring one was maybe 2019 if I remember correctly and I believe you confirmed it, but don't want to put words in your mouth).

 

[Purduevian]

According to thrill data stats, LL's are selling out days in advance for many popular attractions. I know Disney doesn't really care about locals, but this move really screwed them. I don't buy LLs anyway, but I don't even have the option really at this point, other than for things that don't require it. All the "good" LLs are gone. Why does Disney insist on making this so complex and stressful?

Correct me if I'm wrong--at Universal you buy the service and just walk up to the attraction and use the express line. No drama, no apps, no booking days ahead of time, no locking a bunch of locals out, etc. Why can't Disney simplify this? I know people cried that they wanted to plan ahead but this just feels ridiculous. You should not have to wake up at 6am 3 days out to book an attraction.

I think SDD and Tiana are the only 2 consistently selling out before the 3 day mark. SDD used to do that in the FP+ days as well (with 7D).

Looking today 10/2 at 10:15am:
Sold out: Tiana, Tron, Frozen, Remy, SDD,
Past 5pm: HM (7:45pm), Pooh (6:25pm), Pan (8:05pm), Pirates (5:20pm), 7D (9:30pm), ROTR (7:45pm), TSMM (5:00pm), ToT (6:10pm)

Looking ahead 3 days to 10/5 availability at 10:20am:
Sold out: Tiana, Tron, SDD, TSMM
Past 5pm: HM (6:40pm), 7D (8:55pm), Remy (8:30pm), ToT (6:20pm), ROTR (7:50pm)

 

[harryk]

Money, money, money - that is all there is. Pay excessively high ticket prices to enter the park and then pay extra to get onto a ride that if you were to wait (admittedly long times) you can ride for 'free'. Money, money, money - that's all there is. The prices will keep going up as long as people are willing to pay the extra money, money, money.

 

[mysto]

I know people cried that they wanted to plan ahead but this just feels ridiculous. You should not have to wake up at 6am 3 days out to book an attraction.

In my case, sort of, IF there must be a line cut system:

EITHER let me plan ahead
OR let me walk onto anything anytime.

Genie gave me neither of these options. Playing a game on my phone all day during my park visit to shave a couple of minutes off wait times isn't fun for me. All day I have to react to whatever lord Disney deigns to drop on me at any given moment, I am a puppet. Go over here now! Go over there now!

IMO planning ahead is a step up from the puppet master game. The Universal system would be better, and no line cutting of any kind the best for me.

 

[dmw]

Fair point. Regardless, if a product is selling out on a slow day, I think that means it is underpriced.

Yep. Econ 101 - the law of Supply and Demand

 

[flynnibus]

Other than having cast members physically load people more slowly, there are not many rides that can even be "run" at a lower capacity.

It's completely the opposite.

1- For omni-movers it's about how much you pack into each vehicle or let people decide their own density.
2- For fixed vehicle rides like Astro Orbitor, again rider density AND cycle time. You slow down how many cycles you run per hour due to lower staffing and you get lower rider throughput
3- For variable systems like most coasters, you can run less vehicles with longer dispatches... lowering throughput
4- For shows, it's about density (when there is excess demand) and how quickly you turnover shows.

So besides #1 - which Disney rarely forces anyway... it's more about cycle time and pushing attractions to their max throughput. And why it's the most motivation for operators to NOT too... running at capacity usually takes better and/or more staff ($$) and there are self-serving motivations about selling line skips. (a scenario that plays out well at most Six-Flags types regional parks where slow dispatch is a common complaint).

But it is also one of the easiest metrics to monitor externally... through rider throughput. Which Len says they are doing so he should have reliable information on it being a problem or not at Disney.

 

[monothingie]

It's completely the opposite.

1- For omni-movers it's about how much you pack into each vehicle or let people decide their own density.
2- For fixed vehicle rides like Astro Orbitor, again rider density AND cycle time. You slow down how many cycles you run per hour due to lower staffing and you get lower rider throughput
3- For variable systems like most coasters, you can run less vehicles with longer dispatches... lowering throughput
4- For shows, it's about density (when there is excess demand) and how quickly you turnover shows.

So besides #1 - which Disney rarely forces anyway... it's more about cycle time and pushing attractions to their max throughput. And why it's the most motivation for operators to NOT too... running at capacity usually takes better and/or more staff ($$) and there are self-serving motivations about selling line skips. (a scenario that plays out well at most Six-Flags types regional parks where slow dispatch is a common complaint).

But it is also one of the easiest metrics to monitor externally... through rider throughput. Which Len says they are doing so he should have reliable information on it being a problem or not at Disney.

My perspective in response the OP was that it was unlikely they would be reducing capacity by removing ride vehicles or using less than the normal number of load areas etc. The individual CM have a lot of discretion in loading, and the only place in which I’ve ever seen it strictly enforced was with the Skyliner during peak demand.

 

[lentesta]

If I remember correctly, it wasn't that they decreased capacity on the rides, but they were posting wildly inaccurate wait times, (not sure if that is done anymore, my most jarring one was maybe 2019 if I remember correctly and I believe you confirmed it, but don't want to put words in your mouth).

IIRC, 75% of posted waits are overestimates.

 

[Purduevian]

3- For variable systems like most coasters, you can run less vehicles with longer dispatches... lowering throughput

Interesting fact about BTMRR. They really don't want to increase dispatch times on that ride unless they remove coaster trains. I'm going to nerd out for a second, but the TLDR is that failing to dispatch BTMRR trains in time will actually cause downtime.

Alright nerd out time:
On any rollercoaster that involves multiple trains, there needs to be "block zones". A block zone can only have 1 train in it at a time and must have a wait to fully stop a train at the end of the block zone (block brakes). If train A is behind train B, train A can not enter the next block zone of the track until train B is fully cleared of the block.

On BTMRR, there is an interesting design choice on at least 1 of the block brakes, where the breaks are on a slight uphill part of the track. This means if a train is unable to enter the next block zone (because it is occupied) it must stop on this uphill portion of track.

This issue is that once the block ahead of this uphill stopped train clears, it has no way to propel itself up and over the hill, and actually needs a winch to come out to push it along (causing a downtime of the attraction).

Modern rollercoasters usually get around this by putting the block brakes on a downhill slope or on a launch.

This is the block zone is question.

Also source:

 

[flynnibus]

Interesting fact about BTMRR. They really don't want to increase dispatch times on that ride unless they remove coaster trains. I'm going to nerd out for a second, but the TLDR is that failing to dispatch BTMRR trains in time will actually cause downtime.

Yes, we all know about block zones and cascades. Dispatches and # of trains are not independent of each other.

And the result is they often simply don't run at max train density -- because it is much harder for them to maintain the dispatch intervals with stupid humans on the platform.