Lightning Lane at Walt Disney World

[bubbles1812]

My point is that for decades, a guest was a guest. There were VIP tours if a person was so inclined, but there weren't literally fenced off areas of the parks specifically for guests willing to pay for them. They've created instances where a kid will see something and might ask "Why do they get to do that and we can't?"...that didn't exist before.

Well… they have to work around their crowd/ capacity issues somehow… as you’ve stated.

 

[ImperfectPixie]

Well… they have to work around their crowd/ capacity issues somehow… as you’ve stated.

The ones they created...

 

[wutisgood]

The real reason I call this system is broken compared to fastpass plus is that the biggest planners among us could always make it work well enough even during crowded times to feel like the day was worthwhile. Sometimes yea you had to pay more for onsite hotels, still do rope drop, and make sure to get a hopper to better utilize extra hours at those peak times but these were things we came to understand.

When the some of the forum members say that they stayed on site and even deluxe during a holiday week in the past and made it work and had such a terrible experience now is a problem. If someone stays on site, wakes up early, and even tries to give disney money for an individual lightning lane or genie plus and STILL can not have a good experience even some of the biggest fans are going to ask themselves what the point is of even going? It doesn't matter how much I love disney world or how cool the attractions are if I pay more money than ever and plan as well as I could to not do any of them. When people say "is there actually a breaking point?" I think this example would be it.

Disney is leveling the playing field between locals, off site guests, and on site guests to push upcharges because all that matters to them is per guest spending. I don't think a lot of us feel too much sympathy these days for a guest buying tickets last minute or locals coming in on much cheaper passes than we are allowed to buy. Even those guests themselves probably understand they arent going to get much done at certain times. In this way I actual think resort guests do deserve that advantage they had with FP+. A local could always come back if FP+ was filled up or fill in slower days they grabbed them last minute.

There is one thing that Disney still isn't doing that would alleviate a lot of the problems and that is bring extra magic hours back for all resort guests and greatly expand them. Remember when MK was open some nights until midnight and you didn't need a party ticket? And that was when there was less overall demand. Then can do this quickly without adding any rides. Until they expand hours any talk of "oh well we just have to raise the price because the parks are overcrowded" is BS.

 

[lazyboy97o]

Well… they have to work around their crowd/ capacity issues somehow… as you’ve stated.

So why not do things like reopen the Tomorrowland Terrace? Why is it reasonable that the Magic Kingdom in 2023 still has less dining capacity than in 1993?

 

[wutisgood]

And I think that had absolutely nothing to do with FP+ or what Disney did or didn’t build. That Attendance increased because in general more people have more discretionary income than in the 80s or 90s, and the kids from those eras are now old enough to have kids of their own. That’s it.

I think it's more that people are locked in and willing to spend more of their income because Disney vacations are a status symbol now. Events have taken the bragging rights over a lot of other goods esp for the younger generation. It's why concerts, sports, festivals have gotten so much more expensive.

Also air transport to major tourist destinations has become cheaper than ever with a ton of competition. I can fly down to disney for under $100 round trip a good chunk of the year. There are more decent budget hotels than seemingly ever in orlando as well.

 

[Casper Gutman]

All right… so what are you wanting Disney to do here? As I said, even if they announced 10 rides being built tomorrow (they aren’t), we wouldn’t likely see the total fruition of that for at least a decade, if not longer. All while still battling ever increasing crowds.

There is no quick fix, so the only solution I see to your problems *right now* are for Disney to continue to limit the number of people in their parks. Which is unrealistic. Thus… FP, FP+, G+.

No one can change the decisions they have made over the last 20 years. We can only look forward, and the way I see it, the line skipping systems are their workaround, whether we like it or not.

You can talk until you are blue in the face about the above, but the problem doesn’t go away tomorrow, next year, in five years, or even ten years. So I don’t begrudge people utilizing the FP systems to the best of their ability.

(Also, about that ‘class system.’ No offense meant here but people who pay more always get a better experience. #cAPiTaLIsM. The shifts by Disney to focus on their higher paying guests do not surprise me when looking through the lens of a business owner v being a fan. Do I love it? No. I can’t justify the cost of the deluxe resorts, but I get it. I’m just pragmatic that way)

Disney could open up a whole bunch of people eating shows, new and returning, in six months to a year. It could bring back multiple parades in each park by 2023. Those are quick moves that would help.

If Disney spent, over four years, the amount they intend to spend on content for Disney+ In 2022 alone, they could have 15 new E-tickets IN EACH WDW PARK by 2026, if not earlier - and that’s not even correcting the inflated prices Disney spends to build anything. Or if they spent a fraction of what they spent on stock buybacks over the last decade…

 

[Chi84]

Seems like that’s what they are electing for at the moment doesn't it? If you tell me that if I stop going, it’ll magically make them change their minds, then I’ll stop going.

I’m not trying to antagonize you here. I am mainly just accepting reality as is, for the moment, until I reach my line. I still enjoy the place, so sue me.

By all means, recycle to save the planet and get vaccinated to prevent the spread of COVID. But when it comes to making decisions for your multi-thousand dollar WDW vacation, do what's right for you. I guarantee you that's what everyone else is doing despite the vague moralistic mumblings (thank you, Buford) you read here.

Absent a well-organized and highly effective economic boycott against Disney (unlikely), the only thing that will change the company's direction is enough people deciding for themselves (not other people deciding for them) that the product is not worth the price. I don't see that happening any time soon, no matter how much some posters here want it.

As you said earlier, it is sad that the company has made some of the choices it has, but it is what it is. In the vein of misery loves company, it seems some people have decided to continue to go to WDW while feeling bad about their decision and are hell-bent on making others feel bad too. More power to them, but that's not for me. Like you, I still enjoy the place.

 

[Casper Gutman]

By all means, recycle to save the planet and get vaccinated to prevent the spread of COVID. But when it comes to making decisions for your multi-thousand dollar WDW vacation, do what's right for you. I guarantee you that's what everyone else is doing despite the vague moralistic mumblings (thank you, Buford) you read here.

Absent a well-organized and highly effective economic boycott against Disney (unlikely), the only thing that will change the company's direction is enough people deciding for themselves (not other people deciding for them) that the product is not worth the price. I don't see that happening any time soon, no matter how much some posters here want it.

As you said earlier, it is sad that the company has made some of the choices it has, but it is what it is. In the vein of misery loves company, it seems some people have decided to continue to go to WDW while feeling bad about their decision and are hell-bent on making others feel bad too. More power to them, but that's not for me. Like you, I still enjoy the place.

No matter how many times it comes up, you and Buford absolutely will not acknowledge that many posters here have significantly or entirely curtailed their trips to WDW because you need all your opponents to be raging hypocrites. Talk about dismissing other people’s personal experiences.

 

[Chi84]

No matter how many times it comes up, you and Buford absolutely will not acknowledge that many posters here have significantly or entirely curtailed their trips to WDW because you need all your opponents to be raging hypocrites. Talk about dismissing other people’s personal experiences.

No need for the personal attack. We just disagree - it's okay. But if you're right, we should be seeing significantly less problems with capacity and there won't be any long lines at the rides so the entire conversation will be moot. Until then, I enjoy the place!

 

[hopemax]

If they had achieved their goals they wouldn’t have dropped in TRON and Ratatouille in a panic to add something as quickly as possible.

I just wanna know what *this* panic will do. Because as bad as everyone here thinks Genie+ is, Disney must be in an absolute mess knowing that on a busy day, with this amount of uptake, everything is already borked. They can’t realistically sell any more Genie+ on days like this week, and get people more than 2 rides using it. Standby is still too long. And while I am sure Disney is happy with monetizing line skips, they likely had no expectation that they would peg the meter, and it would look like this *waves hand around* so soon. Which is why they panicked and shut off AP sales.

All of their options are bad. Lean on the price lever a lot, which might not affect bookings in the next 3 months as those people are already committed, but what does it do in the future bookings if things escalate that fast? Kill standby throughput again, different set of problems. Restrict park reservations even more, different set of problems. I expect that Disney will try to do some of all three with little success because of the underlying issues and it will only be successful at determining which guests are seated in the game of musical chairs. While everyone who isn't, threatens never to return. Which is a problem if they have high guest spend numbers and the people seated don't.

 

[Casper Gutman]

No need for the personal attack. We just disagree - it's okay. But if you're right, we should be seeing significantly less problems with capacity and there won't be any long lines at the rides so the entire conversation will be moot. Until then, I enjoy the place!

Again, you level dismissive personal attacks throughout the thread and then pretend you’ve been taking the high road.

And again you’ve confused the individual and the mass, which is always at the heart of these derails. Specific folks on this board limiting their spending does not mean the majority of guests are doing so.

 

[bubbles1812]

So why not do things like reopen the Tomorrowland Terrace? Why is it reasonable that the Magic Kingdom in 2023 still has less dining capacity than in 1993?

I’m not saying there is nothing that they could do to help manage crowds but are more eateries the solution? Adding another 8 Via Napolis is gonna play to a certain crowd but not everyone does the sit down restaurants. Or should they add another 8 mediocre Pinocchio Haus’? Is that really gonna solve the issue?

I’ve read through the last 20 pages of this thread and most people are not harping on the eatery capacity, it’s the ride capacity. Which IS a problem. But it’s not a problem solved tomorrow. Or even next year.

You ask for highly immersive theming and high quality rides. And that takes time and money that Disney simply isn’t going to invest all at once. And they can’t change the last 20 years of choices. So they have to do some things *now*. The line skipping system is what we get, for better or worse.

 

[lazyboy97o]

I’m not saying there is nothing that they could do to help manage crowds but are more eateries the solution? Adding another 8 Via Napolis is gonna play to a certain crowd but not everyone does the sit down restaurants. Or should they add another 8 mediocre Pinocchio Haus’? Is that really gonna solve the issue?

I’ve read through the last 20 pages of this thread and most people are not harping on the eatery capacity, it’s the ride capacity. Which IS a problem. But it’s not a problem solved tomorrow. Or even next year.

You ask for highly immersive theming and high quality rides. And that takes time and money that Disney simply isn’t going to invest all at once. And they can’t change the last 20 years of choices. So they have to do some things *now*. The line skipping system is what we get, for better or worse.

Dining capacity at the Magic Kingdom highlights the depth of the capacity problem. It’s something that makes Disney money, visitation has clearly increased since 1994 and yet capacity lost has not been replaced because people will just make excuses that somehow having more capacity doesn’t solve the capacity issue.

As has been explained repeatedly, the ride reservation systems (they’re not line skip systems) do not fix any of those problems. They repeatedly have failed and the latest is already failing.

 

[bubbles1812]

Disney could open up a whole bunch of people eating shows, new and returning, in six months to a year. It could bring back multiple parades in each park by 2023. Those are quick moves that would help.

If Disney spent, over four years, the amount they intend to spend on content for Disney+ In 2022 alone, they could have 15 new E-tickets IN EACH WDW PARK by 2026, if not earlier - and that’s not even correcting the inflated prices Disney spends to build anything. Or if they spent a fraction of what they spent on stock buybacks over the last decade…

Ok… so Fantasmic, Fantasy Faire, and Indiana Jones are on their way back, they just aren’t there yet. We got some Calvacades. Festival of Fantasy is returning soon as well.

I’m in agreement that the nighttime show at DHS should return. But if I have to watch MSEP one more time… well, ah no, I’ll use that time to go on rides. They need a new night parade. Parades are relatively expensive, especially if you hope for Dreamlights. So maybe a 5 year dream, if that. There hasn’t been a day parade in Epcot for many many years so that seems a bit of a pipe dream.

The people eating shows would be nice but a new show at Voyage of the Little Mermaid ain’t gonna cut it. That is too small. What other ready made stadiums are there? The axed the theater they were planning on in the MK, and it doesn’t seem like they are enthused about bringing that project back.

I would enjoy all the suggestions you make and I agree they would help. But I am trying to be realistic about what could/would happen in the context of what is going on in the greater company. I just don’t see a lot of it happening.

 

[Chi84]

Again, you level dismissive personal attacks throughout the thread and then pretend you’ve been taking the high road.

And again you’ve confused the individual and the mass, which is always at the heart of these derails. Specific folks on this board limiting their spending does not mean the majority of guests are doing so.

I haven’t confused anything. The mass of people are enjoying WDW while some individuals are not and desperately want others to join them.

This has clearly become unproductive argument. You take care and enjoy WDW in whatever way makes you happy. I’ll do the same.

 

[Jrb1979]

You ask for highly immersive theming and high quality rides. And that takes time and money that Disney simply isn’t going to invest all at once. And they can’t change the last 20 years of choices. So they have to do some things *now*. The line skipping system is what we get, for better or worse.

That's the problem right there. Not every ride needs to be like Rise. They need a mixture. MK is the perfect example of a mixture of quality and quantity. That's what DHS, AK and Epcot needs.

 

[Casper Gutman]

I haven’t confused anything. The mass of people are enjoying WDW while some individuals are not and desperately want others to join them.

This has clearly become unproductive argument. You take care and enjoy WDW in whatever way makes you happy. I’ll do the same.

So just to be clear, your final stance is that the experience of the mass invalidates that of the individual, which is EXACTLY the position you and Buford constantly and indignantly ascribe to posters who critique Disney.

 

[LittleBuford]

No matter how many times it comes up, you and Buford absolutely will not acknowledge that many posters here have significantly or entirely curtailed their trips to WDW because you need all your opponents to be raging hypocrites. Talk about dismissing other people’s personal experiences.

This is pure nonsense. I have never made any claims about whether people have or haven’t curtailed their trips to WDW . All I’ve stated is that I take exception to being rebuked for my Disney spending habits by those who themselves continue to line Disney’s pockets. I make no apologies for highlighting the hypocrisy of the moralisers in question.

 

[Jrb1979]

I haven’t confused anything. The mass of people are enjoying WDW while some individuals are not and desperately want others to join them.

This has clearly become unproductive argument. You take care and enjoy WDW in whatever way makes you happy. I’ll do the same.

The mass of people might be enjoying WDW right now but IMO a lot of that is still from people making up from cancelled trips.

Word of mouth goes a long way. I'm helping by telling people who ask if Disney's worth it, that it's better to go somewhere else.

 

[Casper Gutman]

This is pure nonsense. I have never made any claims about whether people have or haven’t curtailed their trips to WDW . All I’ve stated is that I take exception to being rebuked for my Disney spending habits by those who themselves continue to like Disney’s pockets. I make no apologies for highlighting the hypocrisy of the moralisers in question.

You are absolutely intent on depicting anyone with an opposing view as a hypocrite and have been throughout this thread.

By the way, where is the “rebuke” you’ve railed against for pages here?