Lightning Lane at Walt Disney World

[Chi84]

I just got an email from Touringplans forecasting increased crowd levels for our upcoming vacation starting next week. It was quite a big jump in some cases, with MK going from a 4 to a 7 on the day we're there. We were going to try out Genie+ anyway, but this makes it more attractive.

 

[corsairk09]

I just got an email from Touringplans forecasting increased crowd levels for our upcoming vacation starting next week. It was quite a big jump in some cases, with MK going from a 4 to a 7 on the day we're there. We were going to try out Genie+ anyway, but this makes it more attractive.

Yikes. I’m going to be there and Nov. first through the fifth. Wonder what it will be like then… I planned our trip not realizing that the marathon was going to start at the end of our visit. Rearranged some park days and I’m planning extra travel time in the morning. Will definitely use genie+ on the day of the marathon because I’m expecting big crowds based on what everyone says about these events.

 

[LittleBuford]

Everything on this board is opinion, and everyone is aware of that.

We'd all like, in a vacuum, to jump to the head of the line. In fact, we'd all like never to wait. If we were the only person jumping to the head of the line, it would be great. But do you like massively overcrowded parks, with sweaty, shoulder-to-shoulder, non-moving crowds blocking every walkway and filling every store? Do you like lines that inch along between constant stops? Do you like long waits on rides that would otherwise be walk-on? If you do, great! If not, the point is that, with the parks constructed as they are, these are in large part the result of line-skipping systems. It's very debatable under what circumstances such systems even increase the number of rides you can do in a given period.

You’re forgetting that I’ve experienced the parks all three ways: before FP existed, with legacy FP, and with FP+. My overall experience was best with FP+. A crowded day is a crowded day regardless of whether there is a line-skipping system in place. Indeed, it’s significantly worse in the absence of one (at least from my perspective), because long queues then become inescapable.

As has happened in previous exchanges, you are so dogmatic on this point that you simply won’t accept that others experience and perceive things differently from you.

 

[LittleBuford]

I think some people are missing the larger point @Casper Gutman is making. The parks and attractions were designed to handle crowds in a specific fashion. A line skipping system was not part of that design and it disrupts the flow, regardless of how much a person prefers it.

Personal Is preference of line skipping is ultimately a detriment to the functionality of the design itself. It's akin to people constantly switching lanes in rush hour traffic. The continual merging in-and-out of lanes forces everybody behind them to hit their brakes thus causing slower traffic and the lane switching driver who thinks they're actually getting somewhere faster is just exacerbating the problem.

And ironically those type of drivers are the ones who complain about traffic the most.

See my reply to him above. I understand his point perfectly but can’t agree with it, because my own experience is quite unlike his. From my perspective, a day at the parks flows better with FP than without. Short of lying to myself (and the rest of you), I can’t change the way I feel.

 

[mikejs78]

I just got an email from Touringplans forecasting increased crowd levels for our upcoming vacation starting next week. It was quite a big jump in some cases, with MK going from a 4 to a 7 on the day we're there. We were going to try out Genie+ anyway, but this makes it more attractive.

Yikes. I’m going to be there and Nov. first through the fifth. Wonder what it will be like then… I planned our trip not realizing that the marathon was going to start at the end of our visit. Rearranged some park days and I’m planning extra travel time in the morning. Will definitely use genie+ on the day of the marathon because I’m expecting big crowds based on what everyone says about these events.

I am a big fan of TouringPlans, but their crowd level forecasts have not been great lately - through no fault of their own. It's impossible to model current crowds because the circumstances are somewhat unprecedented. They had large crowds for early October but those crowds never materialized. So they adjusted later October lower. Then Columbus weekend crowds started showing up again so they adjusted things upwards.

Best thing to do is use their plans for the higher level and then look at any lower crowd level as a nice bonus.

 

[runnsally]

Yikes. I’m going to be there and Nov. first through the fifth. Wonder what it will be like then… I planned our trip not realizing that the marathon was going to start at the end of our visit. Rearranged some park days and I’m planning extra travel time in the morning. Will definitely use genie+ on the day of the marathon because I’m expecting big crowds based on what everyone says about these events.

Also the infamous Jersey Week!

 

[Chi84]

But do you like massively overcrowded parks, with sweaty, shoulder-to-shoulder, non-moving crowds blocking every walkway and filling every store? Do you like lines that inch along between constant stops? Do you like long waits on rides that would otherwise be walk-on?

No, but that's never been our experience at WDW. If it were, we wouldn't be going twice a year.

 

[Virtual Toad]

I’ve also experienced the parks pre-FP, during paper FP and FP+.

25 years ago, typical visits would include an enjoyable day at EPCOT from 11-6, then a monorail trip to the MK in which we did just about everything we wanted to from 7-midnight, hopping on Space Mountain 2-3 times with minimal waits starting around 11p. Splash Mountain was typically a 30-40 minute wait, but everything else was less than 25 minutes and in most cases 5-15 minutes. And the lines did constantly move.

Pirates, HM and Small World were all walk-ons. Two nightly parades and fireworks gave late-night riders an even bigger advantage.

Without line-skipping options, it was a simple matter of predicting crowd flow and working against what most everyone else was doing at any given time. Expanded late-night hours for the 25th anniversary meant the MK was open till midnight all year long which was a blast. And they kept the monorail back to EPCOT in service until 1 or 2am which made park hopping from EPCOT to the MK a breeze.

As the previous poser mentioned, the parks worked well simply because they were working as designed.

The advent of FP and FP+ changed our habits and strategies. And while waits were shorter for some rides, standby lines for HM, Small World, Pirates, Big Thunder Mountain, the Peoplemover, Buzz and others became absurdly long.

The new reality with Genie+ is you will be forced to either pay-for-play or suffer severe consequences. Those who “play” will be forced to stare at their phones and negotiate an app all day to “maximize” their visit.

Those who don’t will feel inferior, frustrated, angry.

How much time will be spent with Genie+ trying to figure out how to have a good time, instead of just having a good time?

I agree that personal preferences may vary. To each his own, but there’s a case to be made for parks without line skipping.

For me, visiting the parks now involves too many hurdles, costs, and overuse of the all-mighty smartphone as the end-all, be-all solution for everything. Forcing spontaneity and fun to take a back seat. Treating people the company used to regard as guests as simple paying customers.

And imposing on everyone, whether they choose to use it or not, a system designed solely for profit maximization and optimal data collection.

At the end of the day, it’s not just a change in the way park touring is structured. It’s a radical and cynical change in corporate philosophy that marks a dramatic departure from everything that used to set the company apart.

 

[Casper Gutman]

You’re forgetting that I’ve experienced the parks all three ways: before FP existed, with legacy FP, and with FP+. My overall experience was best with FP+. A crowded day is a crowded day regardless of whether there is a line-skipping system in place. Indeed, it’s significantly worse in the absence of one (at least from my perspective), because long queues then become inescapable.

As has happened in previous exchanges, you are so dogmatic on this point that you simply won’t accept that others experience and perceive things differently from you.

Is it your contention that crowding has not increased dramatically over the last twenty years? That overcrowding is not an increasingly pressing issue, particularly at MK?

Look, I’m making the argument that line-skipping system negatively impact the parks because they were not designed to facilitate it. I’m not challenging the fact that people like to skip lines.

 

[wdisney9000]

See my reply to him above. I understand his point perfectly but can’t agree with it, because my own experience is quite unlike his. From my perspective, a day at the parks flows better with FP than without. Short of lying to myself (and the rest of you), I can’t change the way I feel.

Your isolating the subject to your personal experience and preference Which has little to do with how the system was originally intended to operate.

The layout of the parks and attractions were designed to keep a smooth flow and not have overcrowding in random areas, similar to urban development and planning. Emotional experience is not the primary goal.

Emotional experiences at the parks are more.individual and also an element of the sum of all parts coming together. If you prefer FP for your daily experience at the park you're perfectly entitled to that. No one is trying to convince you that 1 system is better than the other.

If you are trying to eat at a restaurant with a party of 6 and there is only a booth for 4 people and you do not want to wait, so you add two extra chairs at the end of the table, you now persoanlly have a better experience and don't wait. But the two extra chairs stick out causing a problem for the staff and customers to get around you because the booth you are at was designed to seat only 4 people. The person who designed the layout of the restaurant never intended for the booth to have chairs at the end. Your personal experience is better, but it has not improved the design and layout of the restaurant.

 

[Casper Gutman]

I don't know what universe you've been living in, but the lines at MK have been at record low wait times (actual wait times, not posted).. This is pretty well documented. People aren't going to WDW right now, that's why things are short.

As you say in a later post on this very page, crowds started showing up on Columbus Day. That’s the whole point. I was talking about this week (and this universe).

 

[mikejs78]

As you say in a later post on this very page, crowds started showing up on Columbus Day. That’s the whole point. I was talking about this week (and this universe).

Your post said "the last couple of months, and in particular the last week".

Last couple of months have been record low crowds. Last week has been higher but still nowhere near as high as pre-pandemic times.

 

[LittleBuford]

Is it your contention that crowding has not increased dramatically over the last twenty years? That overcrowding is not an increasingly pressing issue, particularly at MK?

Look, I’m making the argument that line-skipping system negatively impact the parks because they were not designed to facilitate it. I’m not challenging the fact that people like to skip lines.

Crowds have increased with attendance. I have seen no evidence that they would be any better without a FP-style system.

 

[LittleBuford]

Your isolating the subject to your personal experience and preference

Indeed I am. As are others. The difference is that I’m acknowledging that my position is subjective and that others feel differently.

 

[Casper Gutman]

Indeed I am. As are others. The difference is that I’m acknowledging that my position is subjective and that others feel differently.

Everything said on these boards is opinion. I’ve said that over and over again, and you choose to ignore it.

But reality exists, even though we can only perceive and understand that through our own subjectivity. As flawed humans, we research and study, discuss and debate in order to attempt to understand that reality. In this case, the very, very important reality we are discussing is whether line-skipping systems create unforeseen problems due to how the parks are built.

 

[Casper Gutman]

Your post said "the last couple of months, and in particular the last week".

Last couple of months have been record low crowds. Last week has been higher but still nowhere near as high as pre-pandemic times.

Yes, “in particular last week.” The lines -actual, not posted - have been quite significant. Other posters have discussed this in at least one other thread, and Touring Plans bears this out. I also spoke to several CMs about crowd levels, though that’s hardly scientific.

 

[Casper Gutman]

Crowds have increased with attendance. I have seen no evidence that they would be any better without a FP-style system.

Where do people go in a theme park if they are not physically waiting in line?

 

[Chi84]

In this case, the very, very important reality we are discussing is whether line-skipping systems create unforeseen problems due to how the parks are built.

Everything is opinion except when it conflicts with what you’ve decided is reality. Okay. But to what end are we discussing the very important issue of line reservation systems? Do you think they’re going away? Or just so everyone knows, accepting your view of reality, how bad they are?

 

[UNCgolf]

I don't think it's arguable that line-skipping systems cause additional crowding in non-attraction areas. That's just simple math that has nothing to do with personal experiences. How much additional crowding they cause is up for debate, though -- it's certainly not as bad as VQs, which if used widely would basically break the parks.

It's understandable if the ability to have a bunch of short waits for rides matters more to someone than the shops/restaurants/etc. all being more crowded than they would otherwise be, though. That's just a matter of personal preference.

 

[Casper Gutman]

Everything is opinion except when it conflicts with what you’ve decided is reality. Okay. But to what end are we discussing the very important issue of line reservation systems? Do you think they’re going away? Or just so everyone knows, accepting your view of reality, how bad they are?

Please do not put words in my mouth. We are discussing things because this is a discussion board.

It would be really neat if we could discuss line-skipping systems.