Lightning Lane at Walt Disney World

[Disney Analyst]

I am still hopeful the biggest culprit of FP being an issue was the free aspect, and by making it pay to play like everyone else, a fair amount of people will be weeded out.

I don’t know what it’s like now, but I don’t recall a TON of people using express at Universal and clogging up the standby back in 2013/14.

That’s a lot more expensive mind you…

 

[flynnibus]

I don't think it's arguable that line-skipping systems cause additional crowding in non-attraction areas. That's just simple math that has nothing to do with personal experiences. How much additional crowding they cause is up for debate, though -- it's certainly not as bad as VQs, which if used widely would basically break the parks.

It's understandable if the ability to have a bunch of short waits for rides matters more to someone than the shops/restaurants/etc. all being more crowded than they would otherwise be, though. That's just a matter of personal preference.

This has been beat to death… no matter how much you show negative consequence these posters simply say “well my experience was better in my opinion and thats all that i care about”

they simply don’t care beyond that impression.

 

[Virtual Toad]

Crowds have increased with attendance. I have seen no evidence that they would be any better without a FP-style system.

Increased crowds are definitely an issue. Overbuilding DVC has added to the problem, but the heart of the issue is the lack of expansion in the parks themselves. The parks as “machines” were designed to keep people happy by moving them through the experience efficiently. But today, those machines are simply too small to handle the ever-growing population of people that wants to use them.

As others have asserted before, the total number— and variety— of rides and attractions needs to be increased significantly across all 4 parks.

Building only E-tickets doesn’t solve the problem. Smaller experiences (Cranium Command, Food Rocks, Dreamflight, Country Bears are examples) need to be balanced into the mix to provide variety and emotional ebb and flow as well as capacity. Instead of expansion, the parks have in many cases remained stagnant in terms of adding capacity, and in some cases (Epcot) capacity and number of attractions have actually decreased.

Disneyland has an awesome attraction lineup— but is cursed with tiny public spaces. WDW’s Magic Kingdom was built with amazing wide spaces to handle the crowds— but suffers from an anemic attraction count.

Imagine how amazing it would be if we could have the best of both worlds.

But instead of solving the problem, Disney continues to roll out line skipping and crowd management “band-aids” such as FP and now Genie+.

I said at the time and still believe that New Fantasyland was a huge missed opportunity. The space behind Mine Train should have included four to six additional C-ticket dark rides— think Toad, Alice and Pinocchio from DL as comparable if not literal examples— to handle the increased crowds and provide a more complete and varied experience. Instead we got a single dark ride, and during the same time span, an increasingly neglected Tomorrowland that replaced Alien Encounter, Timekeeper and an enjoyable and walk-on Dreamflight with the far inferior and now closed Stitch, an off-theme Comedy Club attraction, and a crowded, dirty and woefully neglected Buzz ride. Tron is coming but will be another overcrowded headliner that’s taken far too many years to build.

The elephant in the room is definitely capacity, but time and again the approach taken to try to address the issue (through line-skipping and crowd management schemes which have now been re-engineered to generate direct profit) has been misguided and woefully inadequate.

 

[Chi84]

This has been beat to death… no matter how much you show negative consequence these posters simply say “well my experience was better in my opinion and thats all that i care about”

they simply don’t care beyond that impression.

I’m told it’s a discussion board and it’s okay to beat something to death even if there’s no realistic chance of changing whatever you don’t like.

This isn’t climate change or COVID we’re discussing. People are going to consider their own experiences when deciding where to vacation and how to spend their time and money while there.

 

[mikejs78]

Everything said on these boards is opinion. I’ve said that over and over again, and you choose to ignore it.

But reality exists, even though we can only perceive and understand that through our own subjectivity. As flawed humans, we research and study, discuss and debate in order to attempt to understand that reality. In this case, the very, very important reality we are discussing is whether line-skipping systems create unforeseen problems due to how the parks are built.

Sure, but unless you provide data, your argument is subjective.

Yes, “in particular last week.” The lines -actual, not posted - have been quite significant. Other posters have discussed this in at least one other thread, and Touring Plans bears this out. I also spoke to several CMs about crowd levels, though that’s hardly scientific.

This week the average crowd levels at MK from Sunday to Friday, according to TP:

4, 6, 5, 4, 5, 4

More crowded than before, but hardly huge crowds. I went in April of 2018 on similar crowd level days (5 and 5) and found the crowds in the paths to also not be that crowded compared to other times of year.

Where do people go in a theme park if they are not physically waiting in line?

Physically waiting in another line. I do think that FP may add some level of additional crowding outside the attractions, but not to the extent that you are postulating.

 

[ImperfectPixie]

Increased crowds are definitely an issue. Overbuilding DVC has added to the problem, but the heart of the issue is the lack of expansion in the parks themselves. The parks as “machines” were designed to keep people happy by moving them through the experience efficiently. But today, those machines are simply too small to handle the ever-growing population of people that wants to use them.

As others have asserted before, the total number— and variety— of rides and attractions needs to be increased significantly across all 4 parks.

Building only E-tickets doesn’t solve the problem. Smaller experiences (Cranium Command, Food Rocks, Dreamflight, Country Bears are examples) need to be balanced into the mix to provide variety and emotional ebb and flow as well as capacity. Instead of expansion, the parks have in many cases remained stagnant in terms of adding capacity, and in some cases (Epcot) capacity and number of attractions have actually decreased.

Disneyland has an awesome attraction lineup— but is cursed with tiny public spaces. WDW’s Magic Kingdom was built with amazing wide spaces to handle the crowds— but suffers from an anemic attraction count.

Imagine how amazing it would be if we could have the best of both worlds.

But instead of solving the problem, Disney continues to roll out line skipping and crowd management “band-aids” such as FP and now Genie+.

I said at the time and still believe that New Fantasyland was a huge missed opportunity. The space behind Mine Train should have included four to six additional C-ticket dark rides— think Toad, Alice and Pinocchio from DL as comparable if not literal examples— to handle the increased crowds and provide a more complete and varied experience. Instead we got a single dark ride, and during the same time span, an increasingly neglected Tomorrowland that replaced Alien Encounter, Timekeeper and an enjoyable and walk-on Dreamflight with the far inferior and now closed Stitch, an off-theme Comedy Club attraction, and a crowded, dirty and woefully neglected Buzz ride. Tron is coming but will be another overcrowded headliner that’s taken far too many years to build.

The elephant in the room is definitely capacity, but time and again the approach taken to try to address the issue (through line-skipping and crowd management schemes which have now been re-engineered to generate direct profit) has been misguided and woefully inadequate.

The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.

 

[LittleBuford]

Increased crowds are definitely an issue. Overbuilding DVC has added to the problem, but the heart of the issue is the lack of expansion in the parks themselves. The parks as “machines” were designed to keep people happy by moving them through the experience efficiently. But today, those machines are simply too small to handle the ever-growing population of people that wants to use them.

As others have asserted before, the total number— and variety— of rides and attractions needs to be increased significantly across all 4 parks.

Building only E-tickets doesn’t solve the problem. Smaller experiences (Cranium Command, Food Rocks, Dreamflight, Country Bears are examples) need to be balanced into the mix to provide variety and emotional ebb and flow as well as capacity. Instead of expansion, the parks have in many cases remained stagnant in terms of adding capacity, and in some cases (Epcot) capacity and number of attractions have actually decreased.

Disneyland has an awesome attraction lineup— but is cursed with tiny public spaces. WDW’s Magic Kingdom was built with amazing wide spaces to handle the crowds— but suffers from an anemic attraction count.

Imagine how amazing it would be if we could have the best of both worlds.

But instead of solving the problem, Disney continues to roll out line skipping and crowd management “band-aids” such as FP and now Genie+.

I said at the time and still believe that New Fantasyland was a huge missed opportunity. The space behind Mine Train should have included four to six additional C-ticket dark rides— think Toad, Alice and Pinocchio from DL as comparable if not literal examples— to handle the increased crowds and provide a more complete and varied experience. Instead we got a single dark ride, and during the same time span, an increasingly neglected Tomorrowland that replaced Alien Encounter, Timekeeper and an enjoyable and walk-on Dreamflight with the far inferior and now closed Stitch, an off-theme Comedy Club attraction, and a crowded, dirty and woefully neglected Buzz ride. Tron is coming but will be another overcrowded headliner that’s taken far too many years to build.

The elephant in the room is definitely capacity, but time and again the approach taken to try to address the issue (through line-skipping and crowd management schemes which have now been re-engineered to generate direct profit) has been misguided and woefully inadequate.

I honestly don’t mind crowds, whether at WDW or elsewhere. I understand they have a detrimental effect on many people’s enjoyment, but I accept them as part of the experience. My first trips (taken as a child during the British summer holidays) were at very crowded times, long before FP was introduced, which is perhaps why I have a higher tolerance than others do.

 

[dreday3]

Just a read a how-to (with screenshots of MDE) on purchasing Individual Lightning Lane selections - pretty straightforward, very much reminded me of how we chose fast passes. You can search by hour (after choosing the ride) -select 4pm and it will give a selection of available times around 4pm - and it let's you add to your group - everyone in your party that has the park reserved that day.

Wednesday I'm going to attempt to get Rat at our airport at 6am (our time) while waiting for flight! I wonder if other people at the gate will be doing the same thing...

I do think allowing resort guest to be able to purchase their rides at 7am (if they so choose) while off-site guests have to wait until park opening will end up being a pretty good perk. Especially if you have a specific time in mind you want to ride.

 

[Patcheslee]

Increased crowds are definitely an issue. Overbuilding DVC has added to the problem, but the heart of the issue is the lack of expansion in the parks themselves. The parks as “machines” were designed to keep people happy by moving them through the experience efficiently. But today, those machines are simply too small to handle the ever-growing population of people that wants to use them.

As others have asserted before, the total number— and variety— of rides and attractions needs to be increased significantly across all 4 parks.

Building only E-tickets doesn’t solve the problem. Smaller experiences (Cranium Command, Food Rocks, Dreamflight, Country Bears are examples) need to be balanced into the mix to provide variety and emotional ebb and flow as well as capacity. Instead of expansion, the parks have in many cases remained stagnant in terms of adding capacity, and in some cases (Epcot) capacity and number of attractions have actually decreased.

Disneyland has an awesome attraction lineup— but is cursed with tiny public spaces. WDW’s Magic Kingdom was built with amazing wide spaces to handle the crowds— but suffers from an anemic attraction count.

Imagine how amazing it would be if we could have the best of both worlds.

But instead of solving the problem, Disney continues to roll out line skipping and crowd management “band-aids” such as FP and now Genie+.

I said at the time and still believe that New Fantasyland was a huge missed opportunity. The space behind Mine Train should have included four to six additional C-ticket dark rides— think Toad, Alice and Pinocchio from DL as comparable if not literal examples— to handle the increased crowds and provide a more complete and varied experience. Instead we got a single dark ride, and during the same time span, an increasingly neglected Tomorrowland that replaced Alien Encounter, Timekeeper and an enjoyable and walk-on Dreamflight with the far inferior and now closed Stitch, an off-theme Comedy Club attraction, and a crowded, dirty and woefully neglected Buzz ride. Tron is coming but will be another overcrowded headliner that’s taken far too many years to build.

The elephant in the room is definitely capacity, but time and again the approach taken to try to address the issue (through line-skipping and crowd management schemes which have now been re-engineered to generate direct profit) has been misguided and woefully inadequate.

Another problem with having alot of E-tickets, is people tend to prioritize their time based on them. So while we've been twice, we still haven’t done Hall of Presidents, Tom Sawyer Island, Astro Orbiter, Country Bear, Libertyboat, Philarmagic, Laughfloor, or Carousel of Progress. Not to mention we've missed the parade standing in line.

 

[mikejs78]

Another problem with having alot of E-tickets, is people tend to prioritize their time based on them. So while we've been twice, we still haven’t done Hall of Presidents, Tom Sawyer Island, Astro Orbiter, Country Bear, Libertyboat, Philarmagic, Laughfloor, or Carousel of Progress. Not to mention we've missed the parade standing in line.

Of your list we've done Philharmagic and Laugh Floor on our last two trips - I see your point. We just ran out of time.

Our upcoming 2022 trip is longer ( a full week of 8 days / 7 nights as opposed to 5 days / 4 nights of our past two) so I'm hoping we will be able to take in a lot more of the small stuff.

 

[Patcheslee]

Of your list we've done Philharmagic and Laugh Floor on our last two trips - I see your point. We just ran out of time.

Our upcoming 2022 trip is longer ( a full week of 8 days / 7 nights as opposed to 5 days / 4 nights of our past two) so I'm hoping we will be able to take in a lot more of the small stuff.

We won't be doing many M&Gs next time we go so that will help. Think we did 3 or 4 a day so took more time than maybe expected. DD13 has less interest in them now, except for Tigger and Pluto.

 

[lazyboy97o]

Crowds have increased with attendance. I have seen no evidence that they would be any better without a FP-style system.

Crowds would be better with adequate capacity. FastPass, FastPass+ and Genie+ are all intended to obscure the lack of adequate capacity and make it seem like you got a deal.

 

[Jeff4272]

Does anyone know the percentage of guests that purchase Maxpass in DL?

I’m wondering how DL will change because even if you didn’t purchase Maxpass you could still get fastpass for free

with the new Genie+, that option is now gone. It’s either pay or standby. So I wonder if this ends up having more people purchase genie+ vs Maxpass because people still want to be able to skip the lines.

 

[SteveAZee]

Increased crowds are definitely an issue. Overbuilding DVC has added to the problem, but the heart of the issue is the lack of expansion in the parks themselves. The parks as “machines” were designed to keep people happy by moving them through the experience efficiently. But today, those machines are simply too small to handle the ever-growing population of people that wants to use them.

As others have asserted before, the total number— and variety— of rides and attractions needs to be increased significantly across all 4 parks.

Building only E-tickets doesn’t solve the problem. Smaller experiences (Cranium Command, Food Rocks, Dreamflight, Country Bears are examples) need to be balanced into the mix to provide variety and emotional ebb and flow as well as capacity. Instead of expansion, the parks have in many cases remained stagnant in terms of adding capacity, and in some cases (Epcot) capacity and number of attractions have actually decreased.

Disneyland has an awesome attraction lineup— but is cursed with tiny public spaces. WDW’s Magic Kingdom was built with amazing wide spaces to handle the crowds— but suffers from an anemic attraction count.

Imagine how amazing it would be if we could have the best of both worlds.

But instead of solving the problem, Disney continues to roll out line skipping and crowd management “band-aids” such as FP and now Genie+.

I said at the time and still believe that New Fantasyland was a huge missed opportunity. The space behind Mine Train should have included four to six additional C-ticket dark rides— think Toad, Alice and Pinocchio from DL as comparable if not literal examples— to handle the increased crowds and provide a more complete and varied experience. Instead we got a single dark ride, and during the same time span, an increasingly neglected Tomorrowland that replaced Alien Encounter, Timekeeper and an enjoyable and walk-on Dreamflight with the far inferior and now closed Stitch, an off-theme Comedy Club attraction, and a crowded, dirty and woefully neglected Buzz ride. Tron is coming but will be another overcrowded headliner that’s taken far too many years to build.

The elephant in the room is definitely capacity, but time and again the approach taken to try to address the issue (through line-skipping and crowd management schemes which have now been re-engineered to generate direct profit) has been misguided and woefully inadequate.

I'm guessing that most of the problem is how new projects at Disney get approved. I think the idea of "IP only" attractions is their view of safeguarding a new attraction's success and popularity, as well as a safeguard for future income through 'synergy' (merch, sequels, D+, etc). It helps ensure an ROI they can live with and the hope that if it fails that they don't lose their job over it. Finding ways to raise revenue or profit with minimal risk seems to be how they evaluate anything new that they might approve. Even after approval, there's always the cost cutting that gets done along the way.

Guest satisfaction due to crowding (or lack thereof) is nebulous and hard to pin down or take credit for. Revenue/guest attributed to G+ or IAS is easier so it's easier to greenlight it and attach your name and reputation to it.

I suppose ironically having G+ and IAS can create, internally, a scorecard for what new attractions are revenue generating and which ones aren't, perhaps/maybe incentivizing them to 'follow the money' and build attractions that guests will go the extra mile for.

 

[MickeyLuv'r]

Is that where we're at?

The system is too complex because of an acronym?

I was joking...but yes.

Simple is simple. People in this thread have incorrectly conflated convoluted with 'too complicated to understand.' They are not the same. Disney has a long history of making ordinary transactions overly convoluted, and it keeps causing them problems.

G, G+, LL, IAS

That's 4.

 

[LittleBuford]

Crowds would be better with adequate capacity. FastPass, FastPass+ and Genie+ are all intended to obscure the lack of adequate capacity and make it seem like you got a deal.

I know I’m in the minority, but I don’t consider the parks to be under-capacity. I think there are plenty of things to do and see, and the addition of new attractions has (as far as I know) done nothing before now to bring crowd levels down.

 

[Jeff4272]

Will yoy be able to see the available return times before I purchase Genie+?

for eg, if I don’t go to the park until noon and want to buy it then, will I know if some rides have sold out and returns times for the ones that haven’t?

 

[lazyboy97o]

I know I’m in the minority, but I don’t consider the parks to be under-capacity. I think there are plenty of things to do and see, and the addition of new attractions has (as far as I know) done nothing before now to bring crowd levels down.

If there were enough to do then you wouldn’t want to skip lines, as they’d average out to be about 20 - 30 minutes, giving everyone that optimal 1.5 - 2 attractions per hour.

 

[ImperfectPixie]

If there were enough to do then you wouldn’t want to skip lines, as they’d average out to be about 20 - 30 minutes, giving everyone that optimal 1.5 - 2 attractions per hour.

And if there was enough non-attraction capacity, dining reservations wouldn't be so difficult to get and walking wouldn't involve winding your way through packs of people.

 

[lazyboy97o]

And if there was enough non-attraction capacity, dining reservations wouldn't be so difficult to get and walking wouldn't involve winding your way through packs of people.

Like I’ve said so many times before, Magic Kingdom today has less dining capacity than 30 years ago. I’ve been there on busy days (with late hours) where Village Haus was half open, but Disney is “crowded” so people accepted the 45 minute waits for lousy pizza.