Lightning Lane at Walt Disney World

[ParentsOf4]

Top 2 park season pass at uni is 625 plus tax

Disney no longer is trying to compete with Universal's annual pass. If anything, Disney is taking steps to drive away annual passholders, including DVC annual passholders.

Let's consider what Universal's top-of-the-line Premier Pass includes:

• Express Pass after 4 PM year-round
• Valet Parking
• One Halloween Horror Night ticket
• Deep hotel discounts (this is my favorite!)

Disney's most expensive annual pass offers none of those and is twice the cost.

Disney's advantage is that it offers admission to 4 theme parks. Of course, Universal is in the process of building its third theme park, so that advantage will shrink soon.

Besides, no matter how many theme parks they have, I can only be in one place at a time. Theme parks are mostly about the attractions, not the number of theme parks. Moving forward, Disney is going to start charging me for its newest attractions, or I have to hope that my technology is faster than everyone else's to get a Boarding Group. (I genuinely am concerned that I'll never get to experience Tron without shelling out big bucks.)

The reality is that Disney is no longer trying to compete with Universal. Disney execs believe that the Guests they want will pay (almost) any price to go to WDW, so Disney can charge much more than Universal for theme parks, hotels, food, etc.

I've got stays at Universal's Hard Rock booked at $209/night and the Royal Pacific at $204/night. I cannot even get a Disney Moderate Resort at these prices. And, of course, Universal's Express Pass is included in these Deluxe Resort hotel stays. Disney is not trying to compete with this. The best I can do to undercut Disney is to rent out my DVC points and rob Disney of families who otherwise would have stayed at Deluxe Resorts.

Disney doesn't care for the traditional Annual Passholders anymore in Florida or California. CEO Bob Chapek has effectively stated this more than once.

 

[Hawg G]

Disney no longer is trying to compete with Universal's annual pass. If anything, Disney is taking steps to drive away annual passholders, including DVC annual passholders.

Let's consider what Universal's top-of-the-line Premier Pass includes:

• Express Pass after 4 PM year-round
• Valet Parking
• One Halloween Horror Night ticket
• Deep hotel discounts (this is my favorite!)

I've got stays at Universal's Hard Rock booked at $209/night and the Royal Pacific at $204/night. I cannot even get a Disney Moderate Resort at these prices. And, of course, Universal's Express Pass is included in these Deluxe Resort hotel stays. Disney is not trying to compete with this. The best I can do to undercut Disney is to rent out my DVC points and rob Disney of a family who otherwise would have stayed at a Deluxe Resort.

Disney doesn't care for the traditional Annual Passholders anymore in Florida or California. CEO Bob Chapek has effectively stated this more than once.

Hotel discounts are a HUGE thing for Uni. I stayed at Hard Rock for $200 a night in February, and am staying 5 nights at Portofino here soon for $200 a night, over a weekend. Add in free Express, and The value just obliterates Disney. People are paying almost the same to stay at Art of Animation. It’s mind boggling. Even if I go to Disney for the day, Portofino Bay is an amazing hotel.

 

[pdude81]

Disney no longer is trying to compete with Universal's annual pass. If anything, Disney is taking steps to drive away annual passholders, including DVC annual passholders.

Let's consider what Universal's top-of-the-line Premier Pass includes:

• Express Pass after 4 PM year-round
• Valet Parking
• One Halloween Horror Night ticket
• Deep hotel discounts (this is my favorite!)

Disney's most expensive annual pass offers none of those and is twice the cost.

Disney's advantage is that it offers admission to 4 theme parks. Of course, Universal is in the process of building its third theme park, so that advantage will shrink soon.

Besides, no matter how many theme parks they have, I can only be in one place at a time. Theme parks are mostly about the attractions, not the number of theme parks. Moving forward, Disney is going to start charging me for its newest attractions, or I have to hope that my technology is faster than everyone else's to get a Boarding Group. (I genuinely am concerned that I'll never get to experience Tron without shelling out big bucks.)

The reality is that Disney is no longer trying to compete with Universal. Disney execs believe that the Guests they want will pay (almost) any price to go to WDW, so Disney can charge much more than Universal for theme parks, hotels, food, etc.

I've got stays at Universal's Hard Rock booked at $209/night and the Royal Pacific at $204/night. I cannot even get a Disney Moderate Resort at these prices. And, of course, Universal's Express Pass is included in these Deluxe Resort hotel stays. Disney is not trying to compete with this. The best I can do to undercut Disney is to rent out my DVC points and rob Disney of families who otherwise would have stayed at Deluxe Resorts.

Disney doesn't care for the traditional Annual Passholders anymore in Florida or California. CEO Bob Chapek has effectively stated this more than once.

Right and as you said Disney is 4 parks. I'm just responding to the person saying that only the 3 park uni pass is 600, which is incorrect. I have the top passes at both places at this point because I see value in each.

 

[SteveAZee]

Adding more rides does not decrease wait times. That’s a fan fantasy

It's also very expensive, and it adds to the ticket prices.

 

[rkleinlein]

I just really don’t understand changing the name from Fastpass to lightning lane. FastPass is literally what people call the alternate entrance at almost every other theme park on earth. Universal has express pass and six flags has flash pass but EVERYONE just calls it FastPass. It’s like Kleenex, Q-tip and Band-Aid. It’s become more than just the branding, it’s just become what the item is known as regardless of who presents it.

I agree COMPLETELY.

However they could not keep the name “Fast Pass” because it would remind everyone that 1) they now charge for something that used to be free; 2) instead of three attractions in hand, you now get two; 3) but which attractions and when is now a crap shoot; 4) instead of reserving ahead of time you now must plan your vacation in real time while on vacation; and 5) unlike the comparatively straightforward Fast Pass system, some attractions now operate under a completely different yet overlapping (in some cases) labyrinths of systems involving virtual queues, lotteries, boarding groups, pay to ride, and surge pricing.

That's why they couldn't keep the name “Fast Pass” or use any synonym for "fast" or "pass." They had to make it sound like it was something completely different and hence the imbecilic name "Lightning Lane."

 

[matt9112]

Actually it’s far from accurate to say that the system costs Disney nothing. Aside from the high costs to develop and install the system, queue construction and modification, there’s also ongoing costs for maintenance, IT support, servers, and a substantial amount of labor needed to support your “free” system. Millions of dollars per year are spent on labor alone to support Fastpass.

But all of that is irrelevant because the issues with Fastpass sustainability are not related to financials. They are operational challenges based on simple supply and demand.

Two decades ago nobody had heard of Fastpass and nobody used it. One decade ago on average each guests used slightly over 1 Fastpass per day. Most recently that number has nearly quadrupled. Not to mention attendance itself has increased significantly in that same time. Guests were using the system in record numbers and having a Fastpass for major attractions was the expectation. The supply could not meet that demand.

Large amounts of guests would be unable to get fastpasses for in demand attractions. Leading to poor guest satisfaction because they felt they had to have a Fastpass to enjoy the park. The reaction is to increase the percentage of an attractions capacity available as Fastpass inventory. Great more people are able to get a Fastpass, but at what cost. Now having a Fastpass becomes significantly less advantageous. At many attractions guests are waiting upwards of 20-30 minutes with a Fastpass and those without are even more worse off. The Fastpass lines were turning into standby lines and the standby lines were at a standstill

Marketing, internet, and social media have all contributed to making everyone aware of the system, experts on its use, and convinced that Disney can not be experienced without it.

Some of these problems were increased due to advanced planning. But even at Disneyland where that wasn’t possible; guests were sometimes waiting 30-60 minutes just to get a Fastpass for Radiator Springs Racers that wouldn’t be valid until well into the evening.

Demand needs to be controlled to meet supply.

Or you could just build more supply....i mean a concept.

 

[peter11435]

Or you could just build more supply....i mean a concept.

It’s not that easy and doesn’t solve the problem the way you think it does. But… they have done that. Why do you think they added that third track at TSM, the third theater at Soarin, and rebuilt every safari vehicle to add an extra row… etc

 

[ImperfectPixie]

It’s not that easy and doesn’t solve the problem the way you think it does. But… they have done that. Why do you think they added that third track at TSM, the third theater at Soarin, and rebuilt every safari vehicle to add an extra row… etc

It IS that easy. There are multiple things that are all contributing to the problem.

1. They allowed themselves to fall behind in adding capacity to begin with.
2. They've removed attractions/entertainment that don't require butts in seats but that keep guests occupied for stints of time throughout the day. (Sorcerer's of the Kingdom, Pirate game, Phineas and Ferb, the Royal Majesty Makers, the shows in World Showcase, Citizens of Hollywood, etc.)
3. They've allowed attractions to remain closed and rotting without making up for the lost capacity.
4. They run restaurants seasonally even when they are short on dining capacity.
5. They've failed to add capacity (dining, attraction, and just space in general) in their most popular park, with the exception of TRON, which will add demand, but not expand capacity in any significant way.
6. They continue to tell investors they have to control capacity as an excuse for wasting billions of dollars on Fastpass+ and possibly on Genie+ and for raising prices a ridiculous amount in a relatively short time span, all the while still hammering away with marketing campaigns, the sheer volume and frequency of which you would expect to see from a destination desperate for visitors, not one trying to artificially "limit capacity" or manipulate guest behaviors.
7. They've reduced the desire to examine every shop in the parks by watering down the merchandise selection - which means more people in lines for more time during the day.
8. They over-built resort rooms on their own property and continue to do so.
9. They've promoted a "plan of attack" mode of vacationing at their parks and resorts first with the introduction of advanced dining reservations and FP+, and made it worse with boarding group lotteries; compounding this "attack" attitude is the above-referenced lack of spontaneous entertainment and a lack of anyplace to just sit and enjoy a snack or a break.
10. They've not improved the lack of attractions at the "half-day" parks...at DHS, they've basically just shuffled people around in new attractions that replaced *some* of what's been closed for a while, and they've not introduced any new entertainment that could help ease some of the capacity issues by creating another new draw (stage shows).
11. New attractions aren't meeting the hourly capacity of the attractions they are replacing, also exacerbating the capacity problems.

The expansions you mentioned were needed, but clearly they weren't nearly enough, and they weren't in the park that needs it most. Had they not allowed themselves to fall behind with adding capacity to begin with, they could have focused more on the infrastructure and data collection MM+ was supposedly intended/designed for and avoided having to spend a fortune on revamping the system a mere 7 years later. They could also still use park and dining reservations to help predict staffing needs.

 

[matt9112]

It’s not that easy and doesn’t solve the problem the way you think it does. But… they have done that. Why do you think they added that third track at TSM, the third theater at Soarin, and rebuilt every safari vehicle to add an extra row… etc

Those are tiny chsnges in the grand scheme of things. They are only a piece of the pie. Your talking about attendance doubling....in that time frame the capacity should have.....you guessed it....

Sw land is a perfect example its all fluff with almost no raw capacity (for what it is) a line and or wait list to get into a glorified bar in a Disney park is absurd. They got so far behind that to catch up now would be rediculous amounts of capx....

 

[mikejs78]

introduction of advanced dining reservations

Advanced dining was around when I went as a kid back in the 80s.

They've not improved the lack of attractions at the "half-day" parks...at DHS, they've basically just shuffled people around in new attractions that replaced *some* of what's been closed for a while,

I'd argue that DHS is no longer a half day park. They replaced attractions that many would go on once and done or go on maybe once every few trips, with ones that most people will do every time they go.

I don't think a half day park exists anymore at WDW... AK is the closest and there is a ton to do if you go beyond rides.

 

[ImperfectPixie]

Advanced dining was around when I went as a kid back in the 80s.


I'd argue that DHS is no longer a half day park. They replaced attractions that many would go on once and done or go on maybe once every few trips, with ones that most people will do every time they go.

I don't think a half day park exists anymore at WDW... AK is the closest and there is a ton to do if you go beyond rides.

Yes, but ADRs weren't a necessity for being able to eat at a desired TS restaurant.

I disagree about the half-day parks, but that's a matter of opinion.

 

[mikejs78]

Yes, but ADRs weren't a necessity for being able to eat at a desired TS restaurant.

Well, they were for some it's restaurants. If you didn't call on day 180 for Hoop de Doo, you were out of luck. Even today there's only a handful of things that fill up at 60 days (or 180 days before the pandemic)..

But regardless, how is that Disney's fault? ADRs existed for as long as I can remember - Disney didn't change anything there. But demand has increased and more people were (pre-pandemic) booking things 180 days out.

There's a lot of valid points in your argument but I don't feel this is one of them - this is the way Disney has always been, it's just the guests that have changed here, not Disney.

 

[ImperfectPixie]

Well, they were for some it's restaurants. If you didn't call on day 180 for Hoop de Doo, you were out of luck. Even today there's only a handful of things that fill up at 60 days (or 180 days before the pandemic)..

But regardless, how is that Disney's fault? ADRs existed for as long as I can remember - Disney didn't change anything there. But demand has increased and more people were (pre-pandemic) booking things 180 days out.

There's a lot of valid points in your argument but I don't feel this is one of them - this is the way Disney has always been, it's just the guests that have changed here, not Disney.

We were at the World for our honeymoon in 2000 for 11 days and ate at primarily TS restaurants. I had made TWO reservations for dining...we weren't ever turned away and none of the restaurants felt extraordinarily busy. We had King Stefan's almost to ourselves.

 

[Rickcat96]

For years prior to SWGE, Disney did nothing to curb capacity, then the bright idea to re-theme everything to make it IP only was lipstick on a pig. The big change IMO-is when Iger renamed the theme parks to the "market" place. Just because they decided to add a few more very expensive (and under-whelming in terms of capacity) means nothing.

 

[el_super]

[*]They've failed to add capacity (dining, attraction, and just space in general) in their most popular park, with the exception of TRON, which will add demand, but not expand capacity in any significant way.

Your point right here basically betrays the failures of your entire argument. They didn't add capacity, except that one time they did, which BTW isn't going to work? Why do you think it isn't going to work? And why can't that just be applied to all the capacity they have added?

Adding ride capacity doesn't mitigate crowding or long lines. Not at all. New attractions usually generate long lines and additional attendance and just move the crowds around. As long as people want to go on the Haunted Mansion, the Haunted Mansion will have a long line. Adding TRON or Seven Dwarfs isn't going to suddenly convince people they can make a trip to MK and skip Haunted Mansion.

[*]They've reduced the desire to examine every shop in the parks by watering down the merchandise selection - which means more people in lines for more time during the day.

I wanted to point this out because this is the other weird failing in this line of reasoning: that the theme park market somehow works in a water-flows-uphill kind of way. If the market wanted more unique merchandise, and a less "watered down selection" then wouldn't the lack of selection result in FEWER merchandise sales? How can there be long lines at the stores, if there is less stuff to buy?

The same kind of goes with the attractions too: for all the complaints about how capacity hasn't increased, and attractions have been closed without replacement, attendance continues to increase over and over.

Once you start to acknowledge that the attendance increases have been due to factors other than actual theme park content (like marketing, ease of access, cost) you start to realize why attacking those things to reduce demand makes some level of sense to Disney, and why adding more attractions isn't really the answer.

Just one more small point here:

The expansions you mentioned were needed, but clearly they weren't nearly enough, and they weren't in the park that needs it most.

They obviously spent fantastically expanding DHS and DAK because they wanted to take more pressure off of MK. I don't think it's all that crazy to suggest that for people spending 5, 6 or 7 days at WDW, MK is being visited 2 or 3 of those days, and getting the bulk of attendance. Adding attractions (and especially the boarding groups at DHS) should be pulling people away from MK and getting them to the other parks, and relieve some of the pressure, but it's not.

That Star Wars, Toy Story and Pandora haven't really done much to pull crowds away from the MK is another point toward the "attractions don't fix the problem" realization. People may think Pandora is amazing, but they still want to wear their ears, post pictures in front of the castle on Facebook and ride the tea cups because for most people that is Disney.

 

[SteveAZee]

Your point right here basically betrays the failures of your entire argument. They didn't add capacity, except that one time they did, which BTW isn't going to work? Why do you think it isn't going to work? And why can't that just be applied to all the capacity they have added?

Adding ride capacity doesn't mitigate crowding or long lines. Not at all. New attractions usually generate long lines and additional attendance and just move the crowds around. As long as people want to go on the Haunted Mansion, the Haunted Mansion will have a long line. Adding TRON or Seven Dwarfs isn't going to suddenly convince people they can make a trip to MK and skip Haunted Mansion.



I wanted to point this out because this is the other weird failing in this line of reasoning: that the theme park market somehow works in a water-flows-uphill kind of way. If the market wanted more unique merchandise, and a less "watered down selection" then wouldn't the lack of selection result in FEWER merchandise sales? How can there be long lines at the stores, if there is less stuff to buy?

The same kind of goes with the attractions too: for all the complaints about how capacity hasn't increased, and attractions have been closed without replacement, attendance continues to increase over and over.

Once you start to acknowledge that the attendance increases have been due to factors other than actual theme park content (like marketing, ease of access, cost) you start to realize why attacking those things to reduce demand makes some level of sense to Disney, and why adding more attractions isn't really the answer.

Just one more small point here:



They obviously spent fantastically expanding DHS and DAK because they wanted to take more pressure off of MK. I don't think it's all that crazy to suggest that for people spending 5, 6 or 7 days at WDW, MK is being visited 2 or 3 of those days, and getting the bulk of attendance. Adding attractions (and especially the boarding groups at DHS) should be pulling people away from MK and getting them to the other parks, and relieve some of the pressure, but it's not.

That Star Wars, Toy Story and Pandora haven't really done much to pull crowds away from the MK is another point toward the "attractions don't fix the problem" realization. People may think Pandora is amazing, but they still want to wear their ears, post pictures in front of the castle on Facebook and ride the tea cups because for most people that is Disney.

LOL, perhaps they should build a 5th park that is an exact copy of the Magic Kingdom.... like having two tracks in Space Mountain to absorb the demand. Of course there will be those guests who'll only go to the 'original' MK rather than some clone, or those that will go to both to look for subtle differences, and those vloggers who want to ride both mountain ranges in a day.

(posted tongue in cheek)

 

[homerdance]

It’s not a theory it’s a fact. If you go to a park with 4 rides you are going to want to ride all 4 rides. If the park has 10 rides you are going to want to ride all 10. And the park with 10 rides will likely have more guests looking to ride them.

Adding expensive infrastructure and then caping attendance is counterproductive to a revenue generating corporation.

I don’t believe this is true for all ride adds, and generally will only be short term. The addition of Ariel doesn’t draw anyone to the park in 2021, but it definitely eats people.

 

[GimpYancIent]

LOL, perhaps they should build a 5th park that is an exact copy of the Magic Kingdom.... like having two tracks in Space Mountain to absorb the demand. Of course there will be those guests who'll only go to the 'original' MK rather than some clone, or those that will go to both to look for subtle differences, and those vloggers who want to ride both mountain ranges in a day.

(posted tongue in cheek)

Hey! How about an MK of the past where classic rides and attractions that have been removed / retired over the decades are resurrected for guests to enjoy again and allow the next gen's to experience what once was. Things like 20,000 leagues under the sea maybe? Just an example.

 

[nickys]

And eliminate all line-jumping programs. OR price the line-jumping pass at $1000 per day per person.

VIP Tours are lucrative for Disney.
So is Club 33, and since the “line jumping” is included in the benefits it would be difficult to take it away.

Where does that leave us? Oh yes….

Rider Swap - they could tell parents of babies and toddlers that if both want to ride, both will have to wait in standby. Or they could move to the Universal system of switching out at the point of loading. The latter might work, but then of course they need to measure the kids at that point too, slowing down things considerably. But yes, this one is possible.

DAS - this is NOT a line jumping program. They wait outside the line and come back when they have waited the equivalent time as the standby line. But there needs to be a way to get them in.

So there would still be a perception of line jumping even if there was no fastpass, Genie+ or anything else.

 

[homerdance]

I have officially read the entire thread. I can say I am amazed by the number of people who knight up for Disney and this plan to increase per guest revenue spend while adding nothing new, nothing. This is 100% part of Disney’s new strategy of “micro” transactions.


This absolutely disgusts me. The lack of a fast pass included with your ticket is infuriating. The current management had a choice and they choose to hide the prices in additional fees vs truthfully exposing the price of attending a park.

This is just a big middle finger to its biggest fans.