Lightning Lane at Walt Disney World

[Jrb1979]

So when do you ride Hagrids?

We keep an eye on wait times and ride it when the time is low. If that means we cross the park to ride it we do

 

[GoofGoof]

Wow. Is all I can say. Maybe we're I'm the minority but when we visit Universal we treated it the same as visiting a regional park. Basically our whole planning was flight hotel and park tickets.

With Express Pass it's easy to just go with the flow. No making a schedule around dining or shows.

You are probably in the minority. There are still 2 parks plus a water park. I doubt very many people approach Universal without even a high level plan of which days in which park except maybe locals who visit frequently. Hagrids alone requires some thought if you want to avoid a long line. WDW is even more complicated. It’s just not a regional amusement park.

 

[MickeyLuv'r]

3. Improving satisfaction (reducing complains at guest services and demands for refunds).

I don't know about #3. With G+, you could buy based on weather and how you feel each day. With this option, you could have weather like the last few days, but you're already committed to having it.

A plus of this is knowing the price a week in advance.

It is a toss-up as to which option people prefer, but I am inclined to think paying in advance has problems that are equal to the problems of buy G+ same-day. A big factor with FP+ prebooks was that FP+ didn't cost extra, so if you didn't end up using your FP's, you didn't 'feel' as much like you were losing money. (Except the park ticket perhaps.)

Disney only appears to be doubling down on the idea of keeping any money we give them no matter if we use the product or not, and that is just foreign to what the parks were like 20 years ago.

 

[ConfettiCupcake]

I don't know about #3. With G+, you could buy based on weather and how you feel each day. With this option, you could have weather like the last few days, but you're already committed to having it.

A plus of this is knowing the price a week in advance.

It is a toss-up as to which option people prefer, but I am inclined to think paying in advance has problems that are equal to the problems of buy G+ same-day.

Both are problematic in different ways. Nature of a pay to play system.

Genie+ eliminated the advanced booking issues like illnesses, weather, and having the nerve to simply change one’s mind about their plans . From what I’ve heard/read though, Genie+ had people trying to get refunds because of availability and poor value, which is fixed now in the sense that if you think what’s available to you is poor value you know this before you buy.

If I had to guess I would say no refunds with this new system will be a soft rule not a hard one since I think they will primarily be a product of individual logistical issues and not ‘this product sucks’ kind of issues, similar to the way they will refund other non refundable items or issue credits for those reasons. Just a guess though I haven’t read any reports of people attempting to get refunds due to personal issues - ie not the storm. Those kind of refunds are generally not the angry guest causing a scene in guest services kind of refunds.

 

[MickeyLuv'r]

You are probably in the minority. There are still 2 parks plus a water park. I doubt very many people approach Universal without even a high level plan of which days in which park except maybe locals who visit frequently. Hagrids alone requires some thought if you want to avoid a long line. WDW is even more complicated. It’s just not a regional amusement park.

When we visit Universal, mostly we just wander the parks going wherever we feel like going in the moment, we especially do this when we have Express Pass. There's just no reason to plan rides.

What's even better is that we feel 100% free to do re-rides.

Hagrid's is a bit like FoP. The throng heads to that queue first thing in the morning, and then they stay in that queue for an hour or longer. Meanwhile, if you are there early, the rest of the rides all have short waits. IF you follow the herd though, then by the time you get off FoP/Hagrid's, well, you just keep following the herd all day.

It might be partly semantics, but we don't plan. We do however, employ a bit of strategy when touring any park. Generally, if we arrive early then we start the day with a headliner-ish ride, and try to cover a few before the crowd hits. Mid-day,we tend to do lesser wait attractions, or anything that has a pop-up short wait. Like if a ride happens to re-open as we are walking by it.

We don't see a lot of shows. If you like shows, then yeah, those require a bit of a 'plan.' For us, that's usually,"Oh hey, we have an hour to kill, and the bird show starts in 5 min, let's go see it."

Mind, there is a small exception for something that is very new. If you're visiting the day anew ride opens, then you gotta deal with being in the throng. Hagrid's was that way when it opened, but that is no longer the best approach.

I should add, we are often willing to gamble.

 

[GoofGoof]

Might not just be that this will sell more/more expensively than G+. I think they are also hoping to increase TS/Resort sales with this change.

Well, I think that's certainly a big part, but I think there is more than that in terms of goals:

1. Sell more
2. Encourage on site resort stays (trying to shift people from staying off site to on site)
3. Improving satisfaction (reducing complains at guest services and demands for refunds).

I agree I think it all factors in, but the biggest driver is direct sales. If this system improved guest satisfaction but sold less units overall I don’t think they would have changed it.

The resort stays and table service reservations are also definitely a factor. I think pre-planning could also keep people on site longer no matter where they stay which leads to higher spend per guest.

 

[doctornick]

I don't know about #3. With G+, you could buy based on weather and how you feel each day. With this option, you could have weather like the last few days, but you're already committed to having it.

A plus of this is knowing the price a week in advance.

It is a toss-up as to which option people prefer, but I am inclined to think paying in advance has problems that are equal to the problems of buy G+ same-day. A big factor with FP+ prebooks was that FP+ didn't cost extra, so if you didn't end up using your FP's, you didn't 'feel' as much like you were losing money. (Except the park ticket perhaps.)

Disney only appears to be doubling down on the idea of keeping any money we give them no matter if we use the product or not, and that is just foreign to what the parks were like 20 years ago.

I’m not pretending to know how it will play out so sure that might be an issue.

But I think that Disney’s hope is that since you definitely get 3 picks each day that it will be enough to “satisfy” everyone regardless of the weather or how the day goes or whatever. They may be wrong but I think they probably have at least a handle that this is something that a lot of guests have wanted.

 

[doctornick]

If I had to guess I would say no refunds with this new system will be a soft rule not a hard one since I think they will primarily be a product of individual logistical issues and not ‘this product sucks’ kind of issues, similar to the way they will refund other non refundable items or issue credits for those reasons. Just a guess though I haven’t read any reports of people attempting to get refunds due to personal issues - ie not the storm. Those kind of refunds are generally not the angry guest causing a scene in guest services kind of refunds.

Agreed. I’m sure there will be refunds with this as well despite the official “no refund” policy but it will be more behind the scenes and not angry costumer yelling at Guest Services in the park. Just like they will refund a deposit from a missed table service reservation with a compelling enough reason, they will likely refund LLMP on a day if you are sick or your flight is delayed or have another valid reason why you can’t use it.

 

[GoofGoof]

I’m not pretending to know how it will play out so sure that might be an issue.

But I think that Disney’s hope is that since you definitely get 3 picks each day that it will be enough to “satisfy” everyone regardless of the weather or how the day goes or whatever. They may be wrong but I think they probably have at least a handle that this is something that a lot of guests have wanted.

I think Disney has better stats on this than we do so they know how many reservations the average user got and actually used with Genie+. It may not actually be much more than 3. We have a disproportionate number of seasoned visitors and power users here vs the total population of visitors to WDW so some of the crowd here seems to think “everyone” got many more than 3 reservations. I doubt that was true.

I think it’s still too early to definitively say how this new system will work in practice long term, but from early observations it appears that super users will still be able to get many more reservations than 3 with a little effort. Maybe not as many as they got with Genie+ plus no re-rides and for those who liked to stack for the evening that strategy is out. It’s hard to say how “day of” availability will pan since the crowds are not huge right now but on the flip side the capacity is likely still not fully ramped up.

So some portion of visitors will be satisfied with just the 3 advance reservations and a lot of the rest will figure out how to get more and mostly get what they want. Not everyone will be happy but thats true of Genie+ and even back to FP+.

 

[MickeyLuv'r]

I think Disney has better stats on this than we do so they know how many reservations the average user got and actually used with Genie+. It may not actually be much more than 3. We have a disproportionate number of seasoned visitors and power users here vs the total population of visitors to WDW so some of the crowd here seems to think “everyone” got many more than 3 reservations. I doubt that was true.

In the days of FP+, I think that was true. Or rather, it was true for much of the life of FP+. I think towards the end, more and more people learned how to get more than 3 passes thanks to so many online tutorials, word of mouth, etc.

I am sure Disney is hoping to put the Genie back in the bottle. Now that people are paying for passes...I'm not sure that will win out in the same manner. Anybody who used G+ probably understood they could book more than 3.

 

[doctornick]

In the days of FP+, I think that was true. Or rather, it was true for much of the life of FP+. I think towards the end, more and more people learned how to get more than 3 passes thanks to so many online tutorials, word of mouth, etc.

I think he is talking about with paid G+. Disney has data as to how many passes a "typical" or "average" or "most" guests got. And he is saying it might not have been more than 3 in a day for many of the people who bought G+. Also they have a good idea about how many passes (and for what) were booked when guests came to Guest Services to complain about not being satisfied with G+ and demanding refunds.

My personal guess (with no inside knowledge) is that they went with 3 pre-books guaranteed because that was a sweet spot that most guests viewed as "enough" to feel they got value from G+ in a day.

 

[ConfettiCupcake]

I think he is talking about with paid G+. Disney has data as to how many passes a "typical" or "average" or "most" guests got. And he is saying it might not have been more than 3 in a day for many of the people who bought G+. Also they have a good idea about how many passes (and for what) were booked when guests came to Guest Services to complain about not being satisfied with G+ and demanding refunds.

My personal guess (with no inside knowledge) is that they went with 3 pre-books guaranteed because that was a sweet spot that most guests viewed as "enough" to feel they got value from G+ in a day.

Your 2nd paragraph makes a lot of sense to me, because if you take the cost of LLMP at the most expensive park and divide it by 3, the per ride cost is I think less than any LLSP attractions - save for the most expensive G+ days, which I’m assuming will be similar to the most expensive LLMP days. Two rides though, and the per ride cost exceeds or is close to some of the cheaper LLSP.

That’s how my brain works at least, but might just be me that thinks that way lol.

 

[MickeyLuv'r]

I think he is talking about with paid G+. Disney has data as to how many passes a "typical" or "average" or "most" guests got. And he is saying it might not have been more than 3 in a day for many of the people who bought G+. Also they have a good idea about how many passes (and for what) were booked when guests came to Guest Services to complain about not being satisfied with G+ and demanding refunds.

My personal guess (with no inside knowledge) is that they went with 3 pre-books guaranteed because that was a sweet spot that most guests viewed as "enough" to feel they got value from G+ in a day.

Yeah, I got all that. I'm sure some people bought G+ without really knowing how to use it. I am sure plenty of folks still go to WDW with a relaxed attitude- though not as many as in prior years - where they either don't care about going on lots of rides, don't want to use MDE in the park, or don't feel physically up for much park touring.

 

[GoofGoof]

In the days of FP+, I think that was true. Or rather, it was true for much of the life of FP+. I think towards the end, more and more people learned how to get more than 3 passes thanks to so many online tutorials, word of mouth, etc.

I am sure Disney is hoping to put the Genie back in the bottle. Now that people are paying for passes...I'm not sure that will win out in the same manner. Anybody who used G+ probably understood they could book more than 3.

With Genie+ most users probably ended up with more than 3, but not sure how many more. With this new system most users will also end up with more than 3 as well. I think the average number under genie+ was probably a lot lower than a lot of people here think.

Yeah, I got all that. I'm sure some people bought G+ without really knowing how to use it. I am sure plenty of folks still go to WDW with a relaxed attitude- though not as many as in prior years - where they either don't care about going on lots of rides, don't want to use MDE in the park, or don't feel physically up for much park touring.

Standby is still a viable option for most rides most times of the year. Someone only using 3 line skips in a day can still go on many more rides and see shows and entertainment along with other options like eating and shopping and meeting characters. From all public data I’ve seen somewhere between 1/3 and half of visitors used genie+ depending on time of year so a large number of visitors either didn’t want to pay or didn’t care about waiting in standby lines. What will be interesting to see is if this new system can increase sales or not. Will the appeal of 3 advance reservations help some of the guests who never bought in to buy in? Someone who just didn’t want to pay is unlikely to change their mind since cost is mostly the same (except no extra charge when park hopping)

 

[TheMaxRebo]

I don't know about #3. With G+, you could buy based on weather and how you feel each day. With this option, you could have weather like the last few days, but you're already committed to having it.

A plus of this is knowing the price a week in advance.

It is a toss-up as to which option people prefer, but I am inclined to think paying in advance has problems that are equal to the problems of buy G+ same-day. A big factor with FP+ prebooks was that FP+ didn't cost extra, so if you didn't end up using your FP's, you didn't 'feel' as much like you were losing money. (Except the park ticket perhaps.)

Disney only appears to be doubling down on the idea of keeping any money we give them no matter if we use the product or not, and that is just foreign to what the parks were like 20 years ago.

A good aspect of LLMP is you go through the selection process before you pay, so if when you are booking you don't feel there are enough of the rides you want with availability or everything is only late in the day, etc you can cancel out. So you know what you are paying for to a much greater degree than with G+

 

[Purduevian]

I agree I think it all factors in, but the biggest driver is direct sales. If this system improved guest satisfaction but sold less units overall I don’t think they would have changed it.

The resort stays and table service reservations are also definitely a factor. I think pre-planning could also keep people on site longer no matter where they stay which leads to higher spend per guest.

Another benefit I just realized for Disney is a prediction on how busy each park will be to toggle staffing levels.

Disney loved the reservation system because they knew exactly how many guests would be in each park each day. This isn't quite a accurate for them, but if 5000 people book AK LLMP on Monday, Tuesday, and Wednesday, but only 3000 people book it for Thursday. Then they can ramp down staffing on Thursday.

 

[Saskdw]

One pre booked ride should absolutely be good enough. The fact that tiers exist supports this. The other two are a deceptive sales pitch.

You don't get to decide what I think is good enough. It's 3 of they don't get a shot at our business.

 

[GoofGoof]

When we visit Universal, mostly we just wander the parks going wherever we feel like going in the moment, we especially do this when we have Express Pass. There's just no reason to plan rides.

What's even better is that we feel 100% free to do re-rides.

Hagrid's is a bit like FoP. The throng heads to that queue first thing in the morning, and then they stay in that queue for an hour or longer. Meanwhile, if you are there early, the rest of the rides all have short waits. IF you follow the herd though, then by the time you get off FoP/Hagrid's, well, you just keep following the herd all day.

It might be partly semantics, but we don't plan. We do however, employ a bit of strategy when touring any park. Generally, if we arrive early then we start the day with a headliner-ish ride, and try to cover a few before the crowd hits. Mid-day,we tend to do lesser wait attractions, or anything that has a pop-up short wait. Like if a ride happens to re-open as we are walking by it.

We don't see a lot of shows. If you like shows, then yeah, those require a bit of a 'plan.' For us, that's usually,"Oh hey, we have an hour to kill, and the bird show starts in 5 min, let's go see it."

Mind, there is a small exception for something that is very new. If you're visiting the day anew ride opens, then you gotta deal with being in the throng. Hagrid's was that way when it opened, but that is no longer the best approach.

I should add, we are often willing to gamble.

We are describing the same thing. When I said “high level plan” I wasn’t talking about a touring plan with exact rides in a specific order. More of which park you are going to that day and then once inside where to go first. What you are describing as a strategy. The other poster said when they visit universal the only plan they have is booking a flight or hotel. I don’t think that’s very common for people who are not locals with APs that know they can come back frequently.

 

[GoofGoof]

Another benefit I just realized for Disney is a prediction on how busy each park will be to toggle staffing levels.

Disney loved the reservation system because they knew exactly how many guests would be in each park each day. This isn't quite an accurate for them, but if 5000 people book AK LLMP on Monday, Tuesday, and Wednesday, but only 3000 people book it for Thursday. Then they can ramp down staffing on Thursday.

Yeah, with FP+ they knew 30-60 days out. Then when the parks reopened after Covid with no FP+ they required park reservations to serve the same purpose. It is not a coincidence that park reservations ended the same year this new system came out. That info is definitely valuable to Disney. They can ramp down staff on slow days and also add some to busier parks if there is an unusual shift in crowds.

 

[RSoxNo1]

You don't get to decide what I think is good enough. It's 3 of they don't get a shot at our business.

Full disclosure, I hate advanced bookings. It seems we're on the polar opposite of personal preference, but I'll try to take myself out of it.

How often does the average guest get 3 advanced Lighting Lanes that are worthwhile? Getting Slinky Dog, Tower and TSMM is the exception, not the rule.

By separating three of the four parks into Tiers, Disney is acknowledging that many of the Tier 2 attractions are there to add false value/capacity to the system. They can now say that every guest is guaranteed three attractions but we all know on here that not all attractions are created equal. Ironically, Disneyland and to a lesser extent DCA are better suited to handle 3 advanced bookings operationally, but their guests don't typically operate that way.

Genie +/ OG Lightning Lane was a correction on Fastpass+ because the ride count wasn't there to support 3 advanced bookings. Lightning Lane Multi Pass is a significant step backwards. It's a worse version of Fastpass+ because none of the Lightning Lane Single Passes are in the fold, and there's a price point.

Until Disney adds 4 marquee attractions to each of the four parks it simply cannot justify 3 advanced bookings per guest.