Let the hate begin - Wheelchair only buses?

[flynnibus]

So @flynnibus, exactly how is that NOT reverse discrimination??? How is that equal treatment? Why shouldn't that person be made to wait like everyone else for their turn in line? Please explain.

The law does not require you treat everyone uniformly - it requires you not single people out based on protected classes.. and hence you are not guaranteed equal treatment. Reserving a parking spot for Handicap drivers is not discrimination against able bodied drivers.

Disney loads the chair people first because that is what works for the physical constraints of moving the chairs around on the buses. The fact someone isn't held BACK to wait like everyone else... that's Disney's choice and in theory they could do so if they chose.. it's just not really practical.

You can't penalize people based on protected classes... but that does not mean everyone must be equal. Only that you can't punish people based on a protected class and 'not disabled' is not a protected class. So if you could argue they are holding you back because of your race... you'd have a point.. but you having to wait to accommodate someone else. Nope. Argue that HC people cause too much of a disruption, so you send them off to some other buses - Nope - discrimination. You can't FORCE a HC person to use an accommodation either based on their disability.

 

[LuvtheGoof]

The law does not require you treat everyone uniformly - it requires you not single people out based on protected classes.. and hence you are not guaranteed equal treatment. Reserving a parking spot for Handicap drivers is not discrimination against able bodied drivers.

Disney loads the chair people first because that is what works for the physical constraints of moving the chairs around on the buses. The fact someone isn't held BACK to wait like everyone else... that's Disney's choice and in theory they could do so if they chose.. it's just not really practical.

You can't penalize people based on protected classes... but that does not mean everyone must be equal. Only that you can't punish people based on a protected class and 'not disabled' is not a protected class. So if you could argue they are holding you back because of your race... you'd have a point.. but you having to wait to accommodate someone else. Nope. Argue that HC people cause too much of a disruption, so you send them off to some other buses - Nope - discrimination. You can't FORCE a HC person to use an accommodation either based on their disability.

OK, so I wasn't clear. I personally have no problem with the wheelchairs and scooters getting loaded first, even if they didn't have a wait. We have to use a wheelchair at times, so I am completely sympathetic. My issue is with the folks that grumble about it. Maybe spend just one day in their shoes, and see how you feel. Oh, and I do know that some people get them for the express purpose of not waiting, and think that they are owed the world. Those people I have a problem with, but there is no way to tell if they really need the scooter or not.

 

[GrumpyFan]

I love the idea and have even mentioned before, but got shot down pretty quick.
I think it would be a win for everybody!

I fail to see the discriminatory part of this. It's still offering the same level of access/functionality. It's not really different or exclusive, just a specially outfitted bus capable of handling more wheel chairs and scooters. However, that being said, I guess I could see where some might feel that they were being single out and treated differently. Tricky, it is.

 

[flynnibus]

I fail to see the discriminatory part of this. It's still offering the same level of access/functionality

Again.. back to the segregation examples. It's real easy to say "why are you bothered, you have the same stuff" when you aren't the one being singled out. It's clearly spelled out now that 'separate, but equal' is not really equal.

They could offer the buses in addition to the normal buses... but if the HC are able to just go on the regular buses too... what have the 'impacted' people gained at all? They will still have the same HC people going ahead of them in line on the buses.

IMO - the solutions could include:

- Disney to enforce it's own limits on groups - they should be able to enforce priority boarding privileges from being overly abused
- Improve the boarding efficiency through new bus designs or additional labor to help with load/unload at peak spots/times
- Increased # of buses
- Try things like dual loading... start loading chairs on bus #1, but load bus #2 at the same time without any chairs, then alternate. This way not all bus dispatches are slow, only one at a time.

 

[DisneyJoe]

I can see it now....it's night, fireworks have just let out, bus stops are full to the brim, Disney is trying to meet the need and load as many buses as possible, but they can only do it so fast, people will still be impatient, buses never come fast enough, or load and move out fast enough, even with the able-bodied....or you see 3 buses come for Pop Century, and none for your resort....

Now imagine each stop still has that lane for wheelchairs, but instead of it going to the "normal" bus, new high-tech, streamlined buses for wheelchairs/ECV's are purchased and they hire the extra labor force to drive them. One of those pulls up, a ramp drops out the back, and 4 wheelchairs with 4 family members each easily zip aboard, are secured, and whoosh - 20 people are loaded and gone before your next bus comes...and then another one does the same, and you are still waiting....so now instead of you being upset that those wheelchairs are slowing down your bus and you getting back to your resort, you see them get "special" treatment and you are somewhat jealous... and to top it off, when you get back to your resort, you see a few of those same groups in the food court enjoying a night time snack!

It could also work in the morning, I could envision special morning runs of the handicapped express taking wheelchair bound and their families to the parks before anyone else gets to board their bus in the morning....

Be careful what you wish for.

 

[Goofyernmost]

Woah there, cowboy. If you've used public transportation in a major city in the past few years, you might understand why I find it amusing. I don't expect Disney to put any more money into their bus fleet in the foreseeable future, but when it comes time to upgrade, I believe we will see a very sharp decline in wait time and an increase in ease and safety for all involved (bus driver and passengers included). In the meantime, I'll keep laughing to myself.

LuvtheGoof is correct. I was the one that said that. I probably should use public transportation, but, figuring that I not only operated buses in Public Transportation for many years, I also trained new drivers on how to do what they needed to do. I thought that might be relevant to the discussion, but, I guess you have to be a rider and not an operator to know what is going on.

Most of Disney's buses have been upgraded, but, you don't throw away a perfectly good $400,000.00 bus because a few people find that they are inconvenienced because their free transportation takes care of people in need as well as people that are needy.

I think that is the main gripe of people while there. There can be 100 people already waiting for a bus, but this person comes up in a scooter and gets to go to the front of the line with no waiting. So @flynnibus, exactly how is that NOT reverse discrimination??? How is that equal treatment? Why shouldn't that person be made to wait like everyone else for their turn in line? Please explain.

For those that have a problem with how this is done I will list 4 reasons why it is proper to deal with this in the way it has evolved.

Reason #1 would be that it is the law. Reason #2 would be that they need to go in specific spots on the bus. There is usually only two of them, so the ratio of availability of space... two, instead of 40 for the rest of you makes it necessary. Reason #3 is because it is the right thing to do. Many of these people are in constant pain, you poor little sad folk have sore feet from being able to walk all day. How sad for you. Reason #4 is someday you may find yourself in this same situation. If life is anything it is totally unpredictable. You could be next, so maybe it would be good to set a little positive karma up for yourself.

 

[Lord_Vader]

I think that is the main gripe of people while there. There can be 100 people already waiting for a bus, but this person comes up in a scooter and gets to go to the front of the line with no waiting. So @flynnibus, exactly how is that NOT reverse discrimination??? How is that equal treatment? Why shouldn't that person be made to wait like everyone else for their turn in line? Please explain.

My experience...

If there are that many people in line the chair waits most of the time, we have.

Sometimes the chair gets skipped even if they were there first, we have.

Many times (most of the time) the chair is loaded first when there are people that are "in front of them" because it is a total PITA to load a chair with guests already on the bus, especially when they sit in the designated seats.

The main difference is that guests who can walk and climb are easy and fast to load, wheelchairs and ECVs are neither of them. If the driver starts loading, even if by mistake the wheelchair gets the short end and must wait for the next bus. This happens to us at least twice a trip, sometimes more often and is worse around Christmas when guests gang rush the doors the moment they open, especially when idiot guests start loading through the rear exit doors.

I can honestly say it is a total pain to take the bus in a chair, guests that can walk simple jump off and run to the park, their room or wherever they are going while the wheelchair party has to wait for all guests to leave the bus before the driver can even get up to begin the unload process which takes almost as long to unload as it did to load.

I can count the number of times we "jumped the line" on one hand while I don't have enough digits to count the number of occasions we couldn't load because of a variety of reasons ranging from the bus was already too full, too many chairs already loaded, guests won't move, the driver "didn't see us", or the line was too long when we arrived (MK has been typical and fair.)

Are there guests that abuse the ability to load first, yes! There are also a lot of people that automatically assume that anyone in a chair that looks like they can walk is abusing it, that is simply not true. We avoid things like park hopping to avoid the transportation issues, anytime you are in a chair, add twenty to thirty minutes it takes a normal guest, it really does irk me that so many people are judgemental and simply cannot see past the fact that most in chairs deal with a lot and assume getting on a bus first is an automatic benefit.

BTW, if the bus line is long my son and I alway stand even if we are first in line. Only when we hear the murmurs of idiocy (we aren't deaf) do we sit in seats.

 

[Lord_Vader]

I have seen this enforced many times, i have actually never seen what the OP stated about mass numbers of people running in the back......maybe i am fortunate.

I have seen large groups do it but have seen drivers enforce the policy too and wish they all would.

As a guest who is always with a wheelchair bound party we would all benefit from it. It is also a common courtesy that we (guests with wheelchair/ECV parties) should stand to allow guests not taking up as much room to sit, especially if we were loaded first even though arrived later.

 

[Mouse_Trap]

I don't get the concept of wheelchairs/ecv loading first at all.
I can see how it makes things easier to load, but that just introduces queue jumping.

So how do they manage if a wheelchair user wishes to board and there are already people on-board i.e. a bus with multiple pickups/dropoffs?
Surely they don't make them wait until a empty bus arrives, therefore there isn't any need to load wheelchairs first.

Worst case, the lines should be fully integrated, that way when the bus arrives the driver can count off the number of people the bus has room to carry (e.g. the first 50 people) then load any wheelchair users first that are in the first 50 people.

 

[DisneyJoe]

So how do they manage if a wheelchair user wishes to board and there are already people on-board i.e. a bus with multiple pickups/dropoffs?
Surely they don't make them wait until a empty bus arrives, therefore there isn't any need to load wheelchairs first.

They'd make a wheelchair wait if the bus pulled up and it was already full to capacity, i.e. standing room only; but then anyone would need to wait for the next bus.

If there is enough room, even standing room, for people to move, those sitting in the wheelchair securement spots would be asked to leave their seats, and stand if that is all their is, so that the wheelchair could be boarded and secured. Parents with infants and children would even be asked to move out of those securement locations. I've seen it happen when I stayed at Coronado Springs. The same thing would happen if you fully integrated the bus loading lines at the parks, unless the driver was smart enough to realize that a wheelchair was boarding and fixed the securement locations before people boarded.

With a bus with multiple drop-offs, say around the Epcot resort area, if the bus is standing room only, with the wheelchair onboard, and the wheelchair needs to de-bus at the first or second stop while the bus is still full of standees, enough people would need to get off the bus so that the wheelchair could de-bus, and then the people could get back on.

 

[Killnme]

My experience...

Are there guests that abuse the ability to load first, yes! There are also a lot of people that automatically assume that anyone in a chair that looks like they can walk is abusing it, that is simply not true. We avoid things like park hopping to avoid the transportation issues, anytime you are in a chair, add twenty to thirty minutes it takes a normal guest, it really does irk me that so many people are judgemental and simply cannot see past the fact that most in chairs deal with a lot and assume getting on a bus first is an automatic benefit.

BTW, if the bus line is long my son and I alway stand even if we are first in line. Only when we hear the murmurs of idiocy (we aren't deaf) do we sit in seats.

I so agree with the bolded print line. My wife has to use a wheelchair b/c of balance issues from 2 different brain tumors. Plus her right eye is caved in towards her nose, but when she is wearing sunglasses you can't see it. We always get the "look" until people see me helping her stand and helping her walk (there are also great strangers that will jump in and hold a chair or stand behind her to make sure she doesn't fall).

One day I was just over the "look" especially from one lady that kept staring and I blurted out brain tumors any other questions? I knew it was wrong but damn did it feel good to get off my chest. Not all people are trying to take advantage of the system. My wife would give anything to be able to walk properly again and be able to do stuff with our daughter (like shopping) without me having to tag along.

Sorry I will get down off my soap box now!

 

[Lord_Vader]

So how do they manage if a wheelchair user wishes to board and there are already people on-board i.e. a bus with multiple pickups/dropoffs?
Surely they don't make them wait until a empty bus arrives, therefore there isn't any need to load wheelchairs first.

We do wait for the next bus to arrive. If we see a bus at the stop we have already missed our opportunity to board and have to wait for the next bus with very few exceptions.

For the resorts with multiple stops, we have to walk to the one that picks up first or we usually don't get on at all. We quit staying at value and moderate resorts (except POFQ) for this very reason.

 

[Lord_Vader]

They'd make a wheelchair wait if the bus pulled up and it was already full to capacity, i.e. standing room only; but then anyone would need to wait for the next bus.

If there is enough room, even standing room, for people to move, those sitting in the wheelchair securement spots would be asked to leave their seats, and stand if that is all their is, so that the wheelchair could be boarded and secured. Parents with infants and children would even be asked to move out of those securement locations. I've seen it happen when I stayed at Coronado Springs. The same thing would happen if you fully integrated the bus loading lines at the parks, unless the driver was smart enough to realize that a wheelchair was boarding and fixed the securement locations before people boarded.

With a bus with multiple drop-offs, say around the Epcot resort area, if the bus is standing room only, with the wheelchair onboard, and the wheelchair needs to de-bus at the first or second stop while the bus is still full of standees, enough people would need to get off the bus so that the wheelchair could de-bus, and then the people could get back on.

Sometimes the driver will ask guests to move, many times they will not.

 

[Goofyernmost]

I so agree with the bolded print line. My wife has to use a wheelchair b/c of balance issues from 2 different brain tumors. Plus her right eye is caved in towards her nose, but when she is wearing sunglasses you can't see it. We always get the "look" until people see me helping her stand and helping her walk (there are also great strangers that will jump in and hold a chair or stand behind her to make sure she doesn't fall).

One day I was just over the "look" especially from one lady that kept staring and I blurted out brain tumors any other questions? I knew it was wrong but damn did it feel good to get off my chest. Not all people are trying to take advantage of the system. My wife would give anything to be able to walk properly again and be able to do stuff with our daughter (like shopping) without me having to tag along.

Sorry I will get down off my soap box now!

Don't be sorry... it is a point that the me, me, me group, of all generations, needs to have hammered into their little self-involved heads. Instead of being critical... just be glad it isn't you. The old statement that I used to always think as the best ever.. "If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem". That seems to fit for almost every complaint every uttered.

 

[Lord_Vader]

I so agree with the bolded print line. My wife has to use a wheelchair b/c of balance issues from 2 different brain tumors. Plus her right eye is caved in towards her nose, but when she is wearing sunglasses you can't see it. We always get the "look" until people see me helping her stand and helping her walk (there are also great strangers that will jump in and hold a chair or stand behind her to make sure she doesn't fall).

One day I was just over the "look" especially from one lady that kept staring and I blurted out brain tumors any other questions? I knew it was wrong but damn did it feel good to get off my chest. Not all people are trying to take advantage of the system. My wife would give anything to be able to walk properly again and be able to do stuff with our daughter (like shopping) without me having to tag along.

Sorry I will get down off my soap box now!

I am with you, my wife has MS and limited mobility, enough to make it through a store or two but no way she handles a day at the parks. You cannot tell by looking at her but her issues are hidden until she tries to get up.

 

[Goofyernmost]

Sometimes the driver will ask guests to move, many times they will not.

By law they are supposed to... but, some are spineless and will not do the right thing because someone else will get mad at them.

 

[DisneyJoe]

Sometimes the driver will ask guests to move, many times they will not.

Every time I have needed to board a bus with people already in the seats, the driver has asked them to move. I visit WDW once or twice per year. The looks I get could kill.

 

[Goofyernmost]

Every time I have needed to board a bus with people already in the seats, the driver has asked them to move. I visit WDW once or twice per year. The looks I get could kill.

The way I feel about it. Those, and I'll use the word loosely, people are not worth thinking twice about. They are useless, thought-less, compassion-less leaches on society.

 

[buseegal]

because of ADA if I and my ECV get to front of line and there is not room to get me on the bus the line stops. no one behind me can board and the bus is half full. no how are you going to feel being the next people in line you are now waiting as I am the next to board and you can skip ahead. how long is that going to last at end of nights with long lines for buses and buses are leaving half full.

 

[slappy magoo]

I can't imagine a fleet of wheelchair only buses being particularly efficient, let alone cost-efficient, except in rare occasions where the buses know they're picking up a goodly amount of people who need assistance getting on and off buses. Which means those are people traveling in a group, OR people in that situation are meant to wait until there's enough of them so that the disabled-specific bus can pick them up. In which case you risk creating an opposite situation the usually exists, where people who aren't handicapped get (or seem to get) priority over the wheelchair-bound as they have to wait for their SBE bus.