Len Testa - “Disney positions itself as the all-American vacation. The irony is that most Americans can’t afford it.”

[AidenRodriguez731]

It's been awhile since I have posted. I'm solidly upper middle class and we feel priced out. Prior to COVID we were regular visitors. Post-Covid we have been once. My kids are grown but we still get together for family vacations. Just not to visit the mouse.

I do think this is an interesting topic. For years we had mastered hacks to get the most out of our budget. Then all at once a bunch of things happened. Rapid increases in food, entry fees, etc. Paying for line breaking services. Magical Express discontinued. We priced a trip after a 2 year gap and it felt like it had almost doubled. We were astounded by the difference in the cost of everything. A trip costing 6,000 was now costing 10,000.

It isn't just Disney. The price of life has rises for everything else. So we have less margins and at the same time a trip to Disney had risen must faster than everything else. A lot faster.

Could we make it work? Probably, but it really feels like we can find other places to go for our money. I will say that I know plenty of people in my income bracket / age that still find a way. I know young families with lower incomes that do it. I honestly don't know how, but They are still making it work.

At some point the growth in the Theme Parks / Attractions / Experiences division will stop. Disney isn't going to lower prices. They may reduce the frequency of raising them. I just wonder when that will happen.

So in the end, I agree with the idea that Disney's largest demographic audience for it's parks are less and less likely to be able to justify a trip. It does feel like a crises is looming for them.

Maybe I'm just crazy but like... there's a ton of genuinely fair ways to do Disney World while doing everything. My fiance and I have never gone over $4,000 for our trips personally with all parks and hotels + food + fast passes + flights.

 

[K&KDizFreaks]

Our family has drastically changed our Disney habits over the last 5 years.

Pre Covid (solid middle middle class) we had APs and multiple three night stays at deluxe resorts throughout the year with one special event night. Maybe 5K a year not counting food. We have stayed at every resort on site.

Now (upper middle class) a 4-day FL res pass. Two nights on DVC rentals points and two other day trips. 2K a year. We tried the paid Genie Lightning or whatever they call it and found it took away from the trip since we had to bounce all over the place and really didn’t save us any time or increase ride count. We go, hit a ton of rides in the am and late pm and wait in only one 40min line for a big ride now and eat minimally (terrible quality). Less stress, less money, more flexibility. The rest of our now very large vacation budget going elsewhere.

Next year going to Epic one day, the British Isles for two weeks, one week in the Caribbean, and possibly a cabin in the blue ridge mountains for a week with a potential Dollywood day.

We love Disney, but Dworld only wants our money, as much as they can get, as fast as they can get it, without having to maintain the Disney difference anymore. Bob has lowered the standards and put a steep price for mediocrity.

AK is a joke with only 6 rides. HS is a hot mess of random crap that underwhelms, Epcot is just sad and soulless, and the MK is slowly dying from a thousand cuts.

Time to spend $$$ elsewhere. You now have 4 less people in the standby lines in the summer. Bob doesn’t want us there anyway.

 

[jah4955]

Time to spend $$$ elsewhere. You now have 4 less people in the standby lines in the summer. Bob doesn’t want us there anyway.

When "passing through" from South to North Florida (or things near WDW properties) I used to enjoy the "freebees" at WDW (transportation, lobbies, Disney Springs, etc.). For many reasons, I've absolutely concluded even that's become far more trouble than it's worth.

 

[wannabeBelle]

Our family has drastically changed our Disney habits over the last 5 years.

Pre Covid (solid middle middle class) we had APs and multiple three night stays at deluxe resorts throughout the year with one special event night. Maybe 5K a year not counting food. We have stayed at every resort on site.

Now (upper middle class) a 4-day FL res pass. Two nights on DVC rentals points and two other day trips. 2K a year. We tried the paid Genie Lightning or whatever they call it and found it took away from the trip since we had to bounce all over the place and really didn’t save us any time or increase ride count. We go, hit a ton of rides in the am and late pm and wait in only one 40min line for a big ride now and eat minimally (terrible quality). Less stress, less money, more flexibility. The rest of our now very large vacation budget going elsewhere.

Next year going to Epic one day, the British Isles for two weeks, one week in the Caribbean, and possibly a cabin in the blue ridge mountains for a week with a potential Dollywood day.

We love Disney, but Dworld only wants our money, as much as they can get, as fast as they can get it, without having to maintain the Disney difference anymore. Bob has lowered the standards and put a steep price for mediocrity.

AK is a joke with only 6 rides. HS is a hot mess of random crap that underwhelms, Epcot is just sad and soulless, and the MK is slowly dying from a thousand cuts.

Time to spend $$$ elsewhere. You now have 4 less people in the standby lines in the summer. Bob doesn’t want us there anyway.

I am very much the same. Once the AP for out of state people hit over the $1000 mark, I decided to not renew for the following year. I admit it was a tough decision but I did promise myself that if I missed it I could always go and just purchase a ticket for the number of days that I needed, and of course if it made sense, I could always get the AP again. The cost was not the primary factor for that, but the reduction in live entertainment and new experiences and attractions within the parks that reduced the value in the AP for me. That wasnt long before Covid hit, just for a time frame reference. Once I did that, my Disney vacations fell in line with all of my other vacation choices and wasnt the "easy" choice any longer. The mindset of "Oh I have my AP ticket so all I need to do is get a flight (I live in NYC) and a hotel, and I am all set" had gone away. I have visited WDW since then but have also done more non Disney trips including cruising to multiple locations including the Norway Fjords, Alaska, The British Isles, Greece, Italy, the Caribbean, etc. There have also been a number of stays at Universal thrown in there as well. When I am in Florida, I do find myself bouncing around to get in all of what I want to see and do in both Uni and Disney and dont find myself tied to one location or the other. These days when I find myself with a few days to get away, I more often look for a cruise than a land based vacation for the simplicity of the trip and the relative value of the vacation. I do still make it a point to get to Florida and visit both theme park areas and still enjoy it, especially meeting up with friends and touring around the parks, going to see the live entertainment in the area, etc. One trip I did right after Covid was a "staycation" at Universal at the Cabana Bay resort. We didnt even go into the parks at either location and I had an absolute blast on that trip. I do have a trip planned for later this year to check out Epic Universe and I'm sure there will be a day or two at DIsney as well to see some of the holiday attractions that I love like the Candlelight Processional, but wont be doing all 4 parks for sure. I dont feel like I am missing out on anything, which in the past wasnt a true statement. Marie

 

[jah4955]

I am very much the same. Once the AP for out of state people hit over the $1000 mark, I decided to not renew for the following year. I admit it was a tough decision but I did promise myself that if I missed it I could always go and just purchase a ticket for the number of days that I needed, and of course if it made sense, I could always get the AP again. The cost was not the primary factor for that, but the reduction in live entertainment and new experiences and attractions within the parks that reduced the value in the AP for me. That wasnt long before Covid hit, just for a time frame reference. Once I did that, my Disney vacations fell in line with all of my other vacation choices and wasnt the "easy" choice any longer. The mindset of "Oh I have my AP ticket so all I need to do is get a flight (I live in NYC) and a hotel, and I am all set" had gone away. I have visited WDW since then but have also done more non Disney trips including cruising to multiple locations including the Norway Fjords, Alaska, The British Isles, Greece, Italy, the Caribbean, etc. There have also been a number of stays at Universal thrown in there as well. When I am in Florida, I do find myself bouncing around to get in all of what I want to see and do in both Uni and Disney and dont find myself tied to one location or the other. These days when I find myself with a few days to get away, I more often look for a cruise than a land based vacation for the simplicity of the trip and the relative value of the vacation. I do still make it a point to get to Florida and visit both theme park areas and still enjoy it, especially meeting up with friends and touring around the parks, going to see the live entertainment in the area, etc. One trip I did right after Covid was a "staycation" at Universal at the Cabana Bay resort. We didnt even go into the parks at eitehr location and I had an absolute blast on that trip. I do have a trip planned for later this year to check out Epic Universe and I'm sure there will be a day or two at DIsney as well to see some of the holiday attractions that I love like the Candlelight Processional, but wont be doing all 4 parks for sure. I dont feel like I am missing out on anything, which in the past wasnt a true statement. Marie

I like how several years over the last 54 Disney chose not to do any price increase for admission (mostly on the earliest end)...what a concept!

 

[monothingie]

Our family has drastically changed our Disney habits over the last 5 years.

Pre Covid (solid middle middle class) we had APs and multiple three night stays at deluxe resorts throughout the year with one special event night. Maybe 5K a year not counting food. We have stayed at every resort on site.

Now (upper middle class) a 4-day FL res pass. Two nights on DVC rentals points and two other day trips. 2K a year. We tried the paid Genie Lightning or whatever they call it and found it took away from the trip since we had to bounce all over the place and really didn’t save us any time or increase ride count. We go, hit a ton of rides in the am and late pm and wait in only one 40min line for a big ride now and eat minimally (terrible quality). Less stress, less money, more flexibility. The rest of our now very large vacation budget going elsewhere.

Next year going to Epic one day, the British Isles for two weeks, one week in the Caribbean, and possibly a cabin in the blue ridge mountains for a week with a potential Dollywood day.

We love Disney, but Dworld only wants our money, as much as they can get, as fast as they can get it, without having to maintain the Disney difference anymore. Bob has lowered the standards and put a steep price for mediocrity.

AK is a joke with only 6 rides. HS is a hot mess of random crap that underwhelms, Epcot is just sad and soulless, and the MK is slowly dying from a thousand cuts.

Time to spend $$$ elsewhere. You now have 4 less people in the standby lines in the summer. Bob doesn’t want us there anyway.

Your family and the many many like you are the reason why Disney Parks were DEAD this summer. The notion that it is perfectly normal for summers to be this empty that is being peddled everywhere is a bald faced lie. Families have passed on Disney for the reasons you mentioned and more, and now the main demo are Disney Adults. Peak seasons now reflect their schedules. This should be horrifying to management because you've now lost your key inlet into the Disney ecosystem. Sure the childless Disney adults spend more than children (Bob and Josh love those per guest spending numbers!), but there's no one new coming into replace them and the entire thing becomes unsustainable. The end result of a decade plus of pricing families out and lowering the value proposition in favor of appealing to this higher spending Disney adult is now coming to bear. No future Monster's Land, Tropical America, Cars Land, or Villains Land is going to change any of that until they reverse course and do a hard reset on their customer priorities. It's going to be a very painful several years for the parks if they don't do something soon.

 

[Sir_Cliff]

So in the end, I agree with the idea that Disney's largest demographic audience for it's parks are less and less likely to be able to justify a trip. It does feel like a crises is looming for them.

I guess, though, the point of this article was that what was traditionally Disney's largest demographic audience is no longer sufficiently lucrative for them or similar businesses, thus they are pitching at higher income brackets which are now incredibly lucrative. I've seen suggestions that Disney recognises a looming crisis in the longer term as the masses who used to grow up with an emotional connection to Disney increasingly won't as they can't afford to take trips to WDW or DL.

Perhaps this is part of the current push to increase capacity so that they can provide more avenues for middle class families to visit without the parks being slammed. Either way, though, the differentiated experience based on income seems here to stay due to both demographics and the economic incentives. This is, again, why I feel like banging my head against the computer when people who criticise these price increases whoop and holler when the share price goes down: it is certainly not going down because institutional investors are worried that in 20 years or so Disney might start to experience the negative impact of higher profits over the next 5-10 years.

 

[Sundevil]

I have friends tell me Disney is “way to expensive” while dropping thousands on NFL season tickets. To each their own

 

[TheMaxRebo]

I guess, though, the point of this article was that what was traditionally Disney's largest demographic audience is no longer sufficiently lucrative for them or similar businesses, thus they are pitching at higher income brackets which are now incredibly lucrative. I've seen suggestions that Disney recognises a looming crisis in the longer term as the masses who used to grow up with an emotional connection to Disney increasingly won't as they can't afford to take trips to WDW or DL.

Perhaps this is part of the current push to increase capacity so that they can provide more avenues for middle class families to visit without the parks being slammed. Either way, though, the differentiated experience based on income seems here to stay due to both demographics and the economic incentives. This is, again, why I feel like banging my head against the computer when people who criticise these price increases whoop and holler when the share price goes down: it is certainly not going down because institutional investors are worried that in 20 years or so Disney might start to experience the negative impact of higher profits over the next 5-10 years.

I very much agree with this but also think Disney is realizing they need to court the next generation of Disney families with the number of promotions they are doing aimed at families with you get kids

While cost for deluxe rooms and upcharges keeps going up, if you are a family with two you get kids and some flexibility, next June, for example, you could stay at at All Star for ~$150/night, have the included water park arrival day, free kids dining plan (so do a bunch of character meals), all the Cool Kid Summer activities, etc ....not saying it will be a "cheap" vacation but you can have a pretty great time for a not crazy amount of money either ... And now they are hooked and come back and maybe next time spend a little more

 

[Sir_Cliff]

I very much agree with this but also think Disney is realizing they need to court the next generation of Disney families with the number of promotions they are doing aimed at families with you get kids

While cost for deluxe rooms and upcharges keeps going up, if you are a family with two you get kids and some flexibility, next June, for example, you could stay at at All Star for ~$150/night, have the included water park arrival day, free kids dining plan (so do a bunch of character meals), all the Cool Kid Summer activities, etc ....not saying it will be a "cheap" vacation but you can have a pretty great time for a not crazy amount of money either ... And now they are hooked and come back and maybe next time spend a little more

Yes, it definitely seems amidst all the discussion about rising costs and the post-COVID/Chapek backlash to rising costs and uncharges the strategy has been to offer more and more promotions. I even think maybe lentesta or someone has noted that moderates and value resorts have generally seen a pause in cost increases.

Overall, it seems a very common business strategy right now: set base prices at a high level and offer a lot of promotions.

This is, again, where I wonder if the recent push to increase capacity is part of the same recognition. It would be far better if they had excess capacity which would allow them to offer more discounted offers during off season to help fill the parks and bring in a wider audience while still making money hand over fist.

 

[JMcMahonEsq]

When "passing through" from South to North Florida (or things near WDW properties) I used to enjoy the "freebees" at WDW (transportation, lobbies, Disney Springs, etc.). For many reasons, I've absolutely concluded even that's become far more trouble than it's worth.

Except all those “feebees” like transportation, the lobbies of hotels, visiting Disney springs are still there? So what are you about?

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

I very much agree with this but also think Disney is realizing they need to court the next generation of Disney families with the number of promotions they are doing aimed at families with you get kids

While cost for deluxe rooms and upcharges keeps going up, if you are a family with two you get kids and some flexibility, next June, for example, you could stay at at All Star for ~$150/night, have the included water park arrival day, free kids dining plan (so do a bunch of character meals), all the Cool Kid Summer activities, etc ....not saying it will be a "cheap" vacation but you can have a pretty great time for a not crazy amount of money either ... And now they are hooked and come back and maybe next time spend a little more

That trip you just said “wasn’t a crazy amount”…is a crazy amount to the demographic the article is about

They whack them $3000 for tickets for that trip…which is upside down on how package pricing works

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

Except all those “feebees” like transportation, the lobbies of hotels, visiting Disney springs are still there? So what are you about?

The nickel and diming creates an environment where the place becomes “tedious”…and ultimately a pain in the @$$

That’s the deal. Some can tolerate it…like moi…others not so hardened to it turn away

 

[Disstevefan1]

I'm talking about the fact that these hotels still clearly have people in them to warrant such prices.

If there was no one going to these hotels and properties, why wouldn't Disney just lower the price or make a deal that effectively lowers the price year-round. They have done both of these before, it wouldn't be crazy. The truth is that enough people are willing to pay it.

Perhaps I misread the article but I thought it was about Disney getting too expensive for the middle class?

Having said that, I guess you are right, that currently there are enough folks with disposable income to be able to afford Disney still. I have to say this is a good thing to see as there are still plenty of folks that are prosperous enough to pay Disney prices.

Ironically these boards and boards like these have been talking about “ a breaking point” for decades and it never happened. I guess my old saying, “TWDC and it’s theme parks are invincible” is still true, even then they makes mistakes I guess.

 

[monothingie]

I have friends tell me Disney is “way to expensive” while dropping thousands on NFL season tickets. To each their own

Because they get value out of one and not the other. People have money to spend, but they’re not going to just throw their money away at things that don’t offer value.

 

[Ayla]

Perhaps I misread the article but I thought it was about Disney getting too expensive for the middle class?

Having said that, I guess you are right, that currently there are enough folks with disposable income to be able to afford Disney still. I have to say this is a good thing to see as there are still plenty of folks that are prosperous enough to pay Disney prices.

Ironically these boards and boards like these have been talking about “ a breaking point” for decades and it never happened. I guess my old saying, “TWDC and it’s theme parks are invincible” is still true, even then they makes mistakes I guess.

There are plenty of people that could afford Disney, but are deliberately choosing not to vacation there due to the massive loss of value (like me).

 

[J4546]

Because they get value out of one and not the other. People have money to spend, but they’re not going to just throw their money away at things that don’t offer value.

value is in the eye of the beholder. Id muh rather go to DW than an NFL game

 

[LittleBuford]

The nickel and diming creates an environment where the place becomes “tedious”…and ultimately a pain in the @$$

That’s the deal. Some can tolerate it…like moi…others not so hardened to it turn away

But why spend money on a trip you find tedious and merely tolerable? Wouldn’t it be better to opt instead for something you find overwhelmingly enjoyable?

 

[KDM31091]

Disney continues to raise prices and put out less than their standard product. The geo82 airport lounge. Epcots entire middle area looking like a generic seating and garden area. Bland design after bland design at the resorts. Lofty prices for after hours events that have remained the same for years other than higher prices. Stores like world of Disney and creations shop being basically Targets. They are slowly losing what separates them from places charging a lot less. So at some point why pay the prices? I continue to go and enjoy the legacy attractions while they exist, but it feels like the best days of WDW are behind it unless something changes.

Combine all this with every single inch being monetized. We rode the boats between Hollywood and boardwalk last week and wondered how long before they’re also an up charge.

 

[wannabeBelle]

value is in the eye of the beholder. Id muh rather go to DW than an NFL game

I agree, A football game (or season tickets) Probably wouldn't do it for me either. So compare DW to something else that you love to do. A vacation at the Beach? Another theme park destination? A family get together? A fall trip through the Northeast to watch the leaves turn with some cool historical stops? The point is that people are finding other entertainment that they feel they get more of a value out of for their dollar. Marie