Layoffs underway at Walt Disney World

[ford91exploder]

You do know that Comcast’s stock buyback program is bigger than TWDC right? I don’t disagree with your general point that TWDC is managing their business based on stock performance. Where I completely disagree is your implication that it’s only a Disney problem. This is a corporate America problem and your shining example down the road from WDW has a parent company that is just as guilty as Disney of playing the game.

While Comcast is willing to invest in new attractions they are also quick to close existing ones to do it which helps keep operating and maintenance costs down. When Disney tries to close an existing attraction to build a new one people grab their pitch forks and start an online petition. In your example, the more you have to spend on existing maintenance and operations the less you have to spend on new additions.

On principle I oppose buybacks, Read Harvard Business Schools 'Profits without Prosperity' for a better explanation than i can give as to why.

That said many companies have buyback programs and currently they are a legal way to return capital to investors Yes Comcast's buyback program is larger than Disneys, What differentiates the two is Comcast is investing in all their lines of business at the maxium possible rate. This includes building out their cable infrastructure and investing in their theme parks and returning the excess to the investors.

Disney on the other hand is not even investing enough to cover their maintenance deficit and closes attractions for years before something new takes its place thats why the torches and pitchforks come out, When UNI closed Twister, work on the new Fallon ride began almost immediately the space did not sit idle for 18 months before the first shovel of dirt was moved.

Disneys is a BAD buyback program in that it takes away capital for necessary maintenance and expansion of existing businesses (a streaming service LAUNCHING IN 2019 !!!!) solely to manipulate the stock price for the benefit of 'insiders'

 

[ford91exploder]

Have you read a single word in this thread? Honestly.

You obviously have not.

 

[GoofGoof]

On principle I oppose buybacks, Read Harvard Business Schools 'Profits without Prosperity' for a better explanation than i can give as to why.

That said many companies have buyback programs and currently they are a legal way to return capital to investors Yes Comcast's buyback program is larger than Disneys, What differentiates the two is Comcast is investing in all their lines of business at the maxium possible rate. This includes building out their cable infrastructure and investing in their theme parks and returning the excess to the investors.

Disney on the other hand is not even investing enough to cover their maintenance deficit and closes attractions for years before something new takes its place thats why the torches and pitchforks come out, When UNI closed Twister, work on the new Fallon ride began almost immediately the space did not sit idle for 18 months before the first shovel of dirt was moved.

Disneys is a BAD buyback program in that it takes away capital for necessary maintenance and expansion of existing businesses (a streaming service LAUNCHING IN 2019 !!!!) solely to manipulate the stock price for the benefit of 'insiders'

Comcast and TWDC have about the same market cap but Comcast is buying back more shares than DIS. I think your dislike for Disney is preventing you from realizing that the Comcast buybacks are just as detrimental to their long term prospects. Obviously if they are putting billions into stock buybacks they aren’t investing at the maximum level in existing businesses. Universal has been sitting on land for a while now in Orlando that hasn’t been developed. Skipping the Comcast stock buyback for even 1 year would have been more than enough cash to pay for for the real 3rd gate (not just a water park) and maybe a 4th gate too. I’m not even saying they should build all of that at once, but just that they could if they skipped buybacks just like Disney could build a 5th gate and add several Pandora size lands to each of the other 4 parks for what is spent on 1 year of buybacks.

 

[Casper Gutman]

Comcast and TWDC have about the same market cap but Comcast is buying back more shares than DIS. I think your dislike for Disney is preventing you from realizing that the Comcast buybacks are just as detrimental to their long term prospects. Obviously if they are putting billions into stock buybacks they aren’t investing at the maximum level in existing businesses. Universal has been sitting on land for a while now in Orlando that hasn’t been developed. Skipping the Comcast stock buyback for even 1 year would have been more than enough cash to pay for for the real 3rd gate (not just a water park) and maybe a 4th gate too. I’m not even saying they should build all of that at once, but just that they could if they skipped buybacks just like Disney could build a 5th gate and add several Pandora size lands to each of the other 4 parks for what is spent on 1 year of buybacks.

Buybacks are bad. They are also not unique to Disney. All true. However, this is a WDW forum, so Disney's behavior is going to draw the most attention.

As for Comcast, I don't think anyone in their right minds thinks of that conglomerate as a warm and fuzzy organization that operates primarily for the benefit of the guest. In fact, this sometimes acts to Comcast's advantage - they don't have the avuncular Uncle Walt/ Mickey Mouse facade and the long tradition of guest service, so when they fire people or falter on guest relations, it doesn't seem nearly as egregious. It also seems clear that over the last decade Comcast and Disney have had very different understandings of the Orlando tourist market, and Comcast's has proven both more beneficial to the guest and more accurate overall. They certainly could have announced the 3rd park earlier - I'd have loved that. But their delay is made less annoying because of the perception that they are aggressively and consistently moving towards that announcement, a perception supported by their constant acquisition of land, and the frequency with which they are opening new rides in their existing properties.

It comes down to a matter of guest perception of a resort's overall direction. Disney remains a more complete vacation destination with a better selection of rides then Uni (if we consider value for money, I think the comparison becomes more complicated). However, Disney and Uni seem to be going in opposite directions, even if elements of the parent companies' business philosophies are similar. Uni is buying land, Disney is selling it. Almost all of Uni's ride replacements have been upgrades while almost all of Disney's (for more than two decades) have been downgrades. Guest service at Uni seems to be steadily improving, while that at WDW seems to be declining (please note: many, many WDW CMs are excellent, and I attribute this decline far, far more to bad management and insufficient staffing then to any failings on the part of individual CMs). Disney is moving toward screenz and naked coasters while Uni is moving away from them. Disney pays more and more for everything they build and seems to get less and less for their money - compare the price tags of Diagon and TSL.

Basically, people - even Ford - are going to be a lot less likely to analyze and criticize overarching corporate practices and the performance of high level execs if the product reaching consumers is satisfactory.

 

[JoeCamel]

Comcast and TWDC have about the same market cap but Comcast is buying back more shares than DIS. I think your dislike for Disney is preventing you from realizing that the Comcast buybacks are just as detrimental to their long term prospects. Obviously if they are putting billions into stock buybacks they aren’t investing at the maximum level in existing businesses. Universal has been sitting on land for a while now in Orlando that hasn’t been developed. Skipping the Comcast stock buyback for even 1 year would have been more than enough cash to pay for for the real 3rd gate (not just a water park) and maybe a 4th gate too. I’m not even saying they should build all of that at once, but just that they could if they skipped buybacks just like Disney could build a 5th gate and add several Pandora size lands to each of the other 4 parks for what is spent on 1 year of buybacks.

Pretty sure you can leave Comcast out on letting the south property sit. The ownership of all the property is still working it's way through the courts. Nothing will start til that is settled but they have applied for a 2500 space parking lot and a place to pile up dirt.

 

[GoofGoof]

Buybacks are bad. They are also not unique to Disney. All true. However, this is a WDW forum, so Disney's behavior is going to draw the most attention.

I am the first to call out the negative impact of stock buybacks. It’s fine to focus on Disney since this is a Disney fan site, but @ford91exploder brought up Universal as a comparison. His claim that Comcast/Universal is investing at the maximum possible level in existing businesses is simply not true. They are buying shares back at a rate even higher than Disney.

As for Comcast, I don't think anyone in their right minds thinks of that conglomerate as a warm and fuzzy organization that operates primarily for the benefit of the guest. In fact, this sometimes acts to Comcast's advantage - they don't have the avuncular Uncle Walt/ Mickey Mouse facade and the long tradition of guest service, so when they fire people or falter on guest relations, it doesn't seem nearly as egregious. It also seems clear that over the last decade Comcast and Disney have had very different understandings of the Orlando tourist market, and Comcast's has proven both more beneficial to the guest and more accurate overall. They certainly could have announced the 3rd park earlier - I'd have loved that. But their delay is made less annoying because of the perception that they are aggressively and consistently moving towards that announcement, a perception supported by their constant acquisition of land, and the frequency with which they are opening new rides in their existing properties.

I have no horse in the race. I’m on neither side in a Uni vs Disney debate. Both companies have done well and also have their faults. I don’t hold Disney to some perceived higher standard but if that’s what people want to do that’s fine. They are both large companies with profits and share price as their first priority.

It comes down to a matter of guest perception of a resort's overall direction. Disney remains a more complete vacation destination with a better selection of rides then Uni (if we consider value for money, I think the comparison becomes more complicated). However, Disney and Uni seem to be going in opposite directions, even if elements of the parent companies' business philosophies are similar. Uni is buying land, Disney is selling it. Almost all of Uni's ride replacements have been upgrades while almost all of Disney's (for more than two decades) have been downgrades. Guest service at Uni seems to be steadily improving, while that at WDW seems to be declining (please note: many, many WDW CMs are excellent, and I attribute this decline far, far more to bad management and insufficient staffing then to any failings on the part of individual CMs). Disney is moving toward screenz and naked coasters while Uni is moving away from them. Disney pays more and more for everything they build and seems to get less and less for their money - compare the price tags of Diagon and TSL.

Basically, people - even Ford - are going to be a lot less likely to analyze and criticize overarching corporate practices and the performance of high level execs if the product reaching consumers is satisfactory.

I’m pretty sure we are way off topic at this point, but IMHO Universal is moving more and more towards the Disney model. They are building more and more hotel rooms with more of a pricing strategy aimed at keeping guests on property for longer periods of time. They are moving further from the model of attracting day guests and locals towards the resort destination model that Disney has adopted for WDW where the hotels and restaurants add as much or more to the bottom line than the parks themselves. I think it’s pretty hard to say with a straight face that Universal is moving away from screens. I also don’t think that’s necessarily a good or bad thing.

 

[GoofGoof]

Pretty sure you can leave Comcast out on letting the south property sit. The ownership of all the property is still working it's way through the courts. Nothing will start til that is settled but they have applied for a 2500 space parking lot and a place to pile up dirt.

That’s a fair point and I’m in no way trying to be negative towards Universal. My only point to Mr Ford is that the money Comcast spent on buybacks could have funded a 3rd and probably a 4th gate.

 

[JoeCamel]

That’s a fair point and I’m in no way trying to be negative towards Universal. My only point to Mr Ford is that the money Comcast spent on buybacks could have funded a 3rd and probably a 4th gate.

But please remember parks are not the major component of either company's business. They do contribute and are important but they will not sacrifice other units to build the parks we want.

Others point out that there are different units with different budgets, not one pile of money and while the parks may benefit from the company doing well overall they will not be the sole focus of how the overall company is handled.
Buybacks, dividends and reinvestment all vie for a piece of the profits, we only see a small segment of the overall company. I like the parks, could care less about movies or what they do with ESPN or the cable business but I don't hold that they would shift billions to the parks when they could increase the wealth of the BOD by pumping the stock price.

 

[Casper Gutman]

I am the first to call out the negative impact of stock buybacks. It’s fine to focus on Disney since this is a Disney fan site, but @ford91exploder brought up Universal as a comparison. His claim that Comcast/Universal is investing at the maximum possible level in existing businesses is simply not true. They are buying shares back at a rate even higher than Disney.

I have no horse in the race. I’m on neither side in a Uni vs Disney debate. Both companies have done well and also have their faults. I don’t hold Disney to some perceived higher standard but if that’s what people want to do that’s fine. They are both large companies with profits and share price as their first priority.

I’m pretty sure we are way off topic at this point, but IMHO Universal is moving more and more towards the Disney model. They are building more and more hotel rooms with more of a pricing strategy aimed at keeping guests on property for longer periods of time. They are moving further from the model of attracting day guests and locals towards the resort destination model that Disney has adopted for WDW where the hotels and restaurants add as much or more to the bottom line than the parks themselves. I think it’s pretty hard to say with a straight face that Universal is moving away from screens. I also don’t think that’s necessarily a good or bad thing.

I think it is absolutely fair to hold Disney to a higher standard and that has to be part of any discussion of its corporate practices. Disney essentially created the theme park industry, and in the late 80s/ early 90s WDW set the bar in terms of quality of attractions and customer service, a bar no other company has yet met. They are one of the most successful and trusted brands in the world, largely thanks to a confluence of historical events and the careful cultivation of the Walt/ Mickey image. I mean, just look at these boards - Disney has FANS. How many other conglomerates have fans - Apple... and I can't really think of any others. No one is a Comcast fan. That's all because of the remarkable success Disney has had in creating a brand image. And that carries higher standards. So when Comcast lays off employees its barely a blip - they're a huge, faceless, nasty company. When Disney does it, that's a betrayal. I'm not saying that reaction is logical. But Disney benefits IMMENSELY from public goodwill towards its brand, so it can't complain when that makes it difficult for them to maneuver.

Disney's other problem is that it did set the bar for theme parks several decades ago and now fails to meet that standard by quite a long ways. Again, WDW is the victim of its own success - it was better several decades ago. Uni, while certainly not at the level of late 80s/early 90s WDW, has never been better than it is right now.

As to screenz, every insider seems to be in agreement that Uni is determinedly moving away from them, but we'll have to wait and see what they do. We KNOW they are moving away from naked coasters, and WDW is moving towards such coasters and towards screenz-only rides (again, screenz are fine as a tool augmenting other ride elements).

 

[Casper Gutman]

But please remember parks are not the major component of either company's business. They do contribute and are important but they will not sacrifice other units to build the parks we want.

Others point out that there are different units with different budgets, not one pile of money and while the parks may benefit from the company doing well overall they will not be the sole focus of how the overall company is handled.
Buybacks, dividends and reinvestment all vie for a piece of the profits, we only see a small segment of the overall company. I like the parks, could care less about movies or what they do with ESPN or the cable business but I don't hold that they would shift billions to the parks when they could increase the wealth of the BOD by pumping the stock price.

This brings up another point. Because of its history, people understand Disney's core elements to be, in descending order, 1) animation 2) theme parks 3) live action films. Regardless of how much each of those actually contributes to Disney's overall financial state, those are the bedrock of its public perception and are directly linked to perceptions of the Disney brand. Comcast is... a cable company? What percentage of Uni guests even know the park is owned by Comcast?

 

[JoeCamel]

This brings up another point. Because of its history, people understand Disney's core elements to be, in descending order, 1) animation 2) theme parks 3) live action films. Regardless of how much each of those actually contributes to Disney's overall financial state, those are the bedrock of its public perception and are directly linked to perceptions of the Disney brand. Comcast is... a cable company? What percentage of Uni guests even know the park is owned by Comcast?

I think this might give it away! Thanks to MIdway Mayhem for the photo

 

[GoofGoof]

Let’s try to bring this back on topic. Disney announced a series of layoffs. A poster tried to make the connection between Disney stock buybacks and Disney’s issues with the theme park division including these layoffs. He tried to claim Disney was struggling due to stock buybacks and tried to claim Universal was thriving because Comcast invests all of their available funds into their business. I agree that Disney has an issue with stock buybacks but I don’t believe these layoffs have anything to do with the stock buybacks.

All of the cliche Universal does no wrong and Disney sucks stuff is an interesting discussion but is probably better off in a separate thread.

 

[King Capybara 77]

I think this might give it away! Thanks to MIdway Mayhem for the photo
View attachment 246344

I have never noticed that.

 

[Casper Gutman]

I think this might give it away! Thanks to MIdway Mayhem for the photo
View attachment 246344

You need to bear in mind how utterly oblivious most people are to things like the structure of media congloms which might seem obvious to us. I suspect most guests won't make the connection there.

 

[GoofGoof]

You need to bear in mind how utterly oblivious most people are to things like the structure of media congloms which might seem obvious to us.

A large portion of visitors to the Orlando area still think Universal parks are part of WDW. My neighbor is going to FL in March and told me she was considering getting a multi-day park hopper ticket because she wanted to be able to go see some of the Harry Potter stuff too.

 

[Casper Gutman]

Let’s try to bring this back on topic. Disney announced a series of layoffs. A poster tried to make the connection between Disney stock buybacks and Disney’s issues with the theme park division including these layoffs. He tried to claim Disney was struggling due to stock buybacks and tried to claim Universal was thriving because Comcast invests all of their available funds into their business. I agree that Disney has an issue with stock buybacks but I don’t believe these layoffs have anything to do with the stock buybacks.

All of the cliche Universal does no wrong and Disney sucks stuff is an interesting discussion but is probably better off in a separate thread.

This is a bit disingenuous. No one is saying "Universal does no wrong" - quite the contrary. Also, Ford (who is often hyperbolic, no argument) clarified that Disney's stock buybacks are not unique, but when coupled with WDW's long-standing and only very recently reversed refusal to invest in their parks and continuing willingness to cut staff and guest services to bolster the bottom line, reflect a fundamental problem with the company's corporate philosophy. In contrast, he pointed to Uni, which has been investing in parks even as it buys back stock. This all seems relevant.

 

[GoofGoof]

This is a bit disingenuous. No one is saying "Universal does no wrong" - quite the contrary. Also, Ford (who is often hyperbolic, no argument) clarified that Disney's stock buybacks are not unique, but when coupled with WDW's long-standing and only very recently reversed refusal to invest in their parks and continuing willingness to cut staff and guest services to bolster the bottom line, reflect a fundamental problem with the company's corporate philosophy. In contrast, he pointed to Uni, which has been investing in parks even as it buys back stock. This all seems relevant.

If both companies are buying back stock and 1 still invests in the parks while the other one doesn’t then it’s hard to make the justification that the stock buy backs are the main cause of the lack of investment. It’s even more of a stretch when Comcast spends more on stock buybacks but still invests in their parks.

 

[Creathir]

A large portion of visitors to the Orlando area still think Universal parks are part of WDW. My neighbor is going to FL in March and told me she was considering getting a multi-day park hopper ticket because she wanted to be able to go see some of the Harry Potter stuff too.

This x1000...

Generally speaking, most people are utterly clueless with the parks.

My favorite is “oh we’re skipping the Magic Kingdom, it’s just a bunch of kid rides”

People have no clue.

 

[peter11435]

If both companies are buying back stock and 1 still invests in the parks while the other one doesn’t then it’s hard to make the justification that the stock buy backs are the main cause of the lack of investment. It’s even more of a stretch when Comcast spends more on stock buybacks but still invests in their parks.

Except both are investing in their parks.

 

[GoofGoof]

Except both are investing in their parks.

I didn’t feel like going down that road, but I generally agree that they are both investing (at least now). There’s a debate on the appropriate level of investment, but that’s for another thread.