LA Times: Is Disney Paying Its Fair Share In Anaheim

[TP2000]

Is this the property that @TP2000 speculated might be a Four Seasons?

Yes, that's the one.

Yup! I remember that post! and I believed in TP2000 speculation. LOL

It was wild speculation, but there is just something about those green mansard roofs on the design sketches that say Four Seasons to me.

Is it really a Westin? @Darkbeer1, I don't think the brand has been announced yet, so did you just scoop that info ahead of the press release?!? And welcome back! We had all chatted about you several times over the past six months and hoped you would return when you could. So glad to hear there was a happy ending for you.

 

[the.dreamfinder]

I think pre-paid parking and allowing automated gates might be a way to go, but Disney always has issues with guests not reading signs, and one car entering the line without payment shuts the entire line down.

Maybe a combination Manned booth with a reader, which allows the guest to just go through if pre-paid, and the CM to assist if needed. This would speed up every line and require less CM hours (saves labor costs).

Not quite the scenario you are describing, but New York is going to move to tollbooth less tolls for the bridges entering the city, starting with Manhattan. To give folks an idea of the level of efficiency an automated system can provide.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/25/nyregion/new-york-open-road-tolls-congestion-pricing.html
Under the old system, about 250 vehicles could pass through the E-ZPass booths per hour; about 850 cars can zip through the new system in the same amount of time.

 

[lazyboy97o]

So the real question is how much capacity does the trams do per hour to M&Fs? And how much capacity does the buses do per hour to the Toy Story and other lots? Combined they may do 20k per hour, but separately they likely do between 5k-10k. So you only need lines that can meet or exceed the individual modes used now for each route.

PRT or other PeopleMover type systems can be designed to have higher capacities based on the number of tracks and vehicle size. Also its assumed that it won't be a single line system that covers ALL parking structures at one time. But more likely multiple lines that each cover each of the parking structures.

So given the point-to-point nature of this use case (loading site to parking structure with no other stops) it won't be hard to get a PRT system that can do 10k per hour per line. Especially since you can eliminate the stops that buses must do because of being on surface streets. Multiply that by 2 or more lines and you can get 20k or more per hour. And because the system can be almost if not fully automated you can eliminate labor overhead, with just a few needed at loading for directions if needed.

The whole point of PRT is small groups of people going to different locations. It makes no sense for a huge group of people between two points. You’re just creating congestion and duplicating costs versus just using something with higher capacity.

 

[Deleted member 107043]

Is it really a Westin?

The link Darkbeer provided says it is.

 

[Jedi Stitch]

Yep....Everyone else pretty much nailed it. With out Disney the City would fold, the city would just be a suburb. Yes bad deals by Yuppies do exist, and I bet the LA reporter could did into other Anaheim deals that are not Disneycentric, and find other company made deals. I will note that Disney has learned to make every dollar stay Disney buy making the complete resort package. I fore see some of the good neighbor hotels getting squeezed out so Disney can buy them and make their own Dis bubble. So, getting off property which has higher resort taxes, eating at non property establishments to save a buck or too, but still paying the higher taxes to the city will funnel more directly into Dis, as they make it easier to stay on property, eat on property, and generally never leave the Disney Bubble. Finally, the Poor? 17% poverty line for people living in Anaheim per the article. First off that everywhere in any city. If they have a house near the Disney property, they are sitting on a gold mine. Sale now for the 500K easy, move to one of the Ranchosomethings.

 

[DLR92]

Yes, that's the one.



It was wild speculation, but there is just something about those green mansard roofs on the design sketches that say Four Seasons to me.

Is it really a Westin? @Darkbeer1, I don't think the brand has been announced yet, so did you just scoop that info ahead of the press release?!? And welcome back! We had all chatted about you several times over the past six months and hoped you would return when you could. So glad to hear there was a happy ending for you.

It sound like it is confirmed to be Westin brand hotel.

 

[TP2000]

Just drove by the former Anabella and. The rest of the buildings are now torn down.

And here is what will replace it,

http://www.hotelmanagement.net/deve...t-southern-california-s-first-westin-25-years

Ah, I missed this little news bombshell from you the other day. Thanks!

So, it's a Westin. Those green mansard roofs really threw me off for some reason! Westins are pretty nice though, and definitely aimed at an upscale convention crowd on an expense account.

It should also give the Grand Californian a run for its money for the upscale tourist crowd too, especially when Dad can use all his SPG Rewards points he racks up on business to take the family to Disneyland.

 

[Darkbeer1]

Is it really a Westin? @Darkbeer1, I don't think the brand has been announced yet, so did you just scoop that info ahead of the press release?!? .

No, the announcement was a month ago...

http://www.ocregister.com/2017/09/0...-in-anaheim-construction-to-start-this-month/

>>This will be the 18th Westin in California and the chain’s first build in Southern California in 25 years, Noah Silverman, chief development officer at Marriott, said in a statement. This will also be the second upscale Marriott brand to be built in the Anaheim resort district. A JW Marriott is being developed next to the Gardenwalk....

The Westin will feature 613 rooms, including 101 suites, three restaurants, a pool, roof-top lounge and 11 meeting rooms totaling 42,000 square feet. Rates for a standard room would range from $275 to $325. It expects to employ 600 people, including 450 full-time.<<

https://www.hotelbusiness.com/wincome-group-bringing-first-westin-to-socal-in-25-yrs/

>>
ANAHEIM, CA—Shovels went into dirt on Sept. 13 for the first new-build Westin hotel in Southern California in more than 25 years.

The 613-room Westin Anaheim Resort, across the street from the Disneyland Resort and adjacent the expansion of the Anaheim Convention Center, is coming out of the ground via Hong Kong-based Wincome Group, headquartered here.

The seven-story, $245 million project is sited on the former location of the Anabella Hotel, which Wincome owned for close to two decades.

According to Paul Sanford, asset manager for Wincome Group, the decision to insert a Westin into the robust and growing market was driven by the need for a luxury hotel in Anaheim.

“There are no non-Disney four-diamond hotels that aren’t on its campus,” said Sanford, noting the same applied to the area surrounding the convention center, which is set to open its two-level, 200,000-sq.-ft. expansion at the end of this month. “We’re a long-term player in the Anaheim market—we’ve been here almost 30 years—and we [decided]we would do the investment and bring that to the market now.”

The hotel will feature 101 suites as part of the guestroom mix, three restaurants, two bars, including a rooftop lounge from which guests can watch the Disneyland fireworks display each night, fitness center and a marketplace. Sanford said the 20,000 sq. ft. of retail space would include “local successful restaurants, unique breweries and dining experiences.”

Also, to meet what is expected to be expanded convention center business and additional corporate meetings and events, the hotel will feature 11 meeting rooms totaling 42,000 sq. ft. of space, including a 16,000-sq.-ft. grand ballroom. The space is aimed at higher-end groups that previously have had limited options in the area.<<

Here is a link with multiple pieces of concept art.

https://www.dexigner.com/news/30416

And the news of the Anabella closing, announced in April.

http://www.ocbj.com/news/2017/apr/27/anabella-sets-date/

http://www.ocregister.com/2017/08/1...truction-on-four-diamond-resort-in-september/

>>“We feel that Anaheim is ready for a luxury, four-diamond, substantial property that will keep the city on the map,” said Paul Sanford, asset manager for Wincome. “We’ve seen developments in Los Angeles, San Diego. We have to be aggressive and keep up with those other destinations.”<<

And this part of the article gets back to the LA Times hit piece and the upcoming election.

>>
The development, though, does face an obstacle. A union battling the developer successfully petitioned to put a referendum to pull the development agreement between the city and Wincome on the November 2018 ballot. If the referendum is successful, Wincome would still receive the tax reimbursements, however it could face challenges with entitlements and pulling permits.

“We feel confident that the residents will see this property as a benefit,” Sanford said of the ballot measure.<<

So one the same November, 2018 ballot as a new Mayor and three councilmembers, you have two initiatives in regards to the tax reimbursements, so the Chamber of Commerce, including Disney and Construction Unions will be campaigning for a yes vote, UNITE Here union, and its ally's will be pushing for a no vote, unless Wincome agrees to use Union Service workers, which is unlikely.

So you have the same main funding sources trying to get 4 seats on the council elected, and the referendums decided. So this will add to the big issue of who will show up to vote. The 2016 election had less republicans and Independents due to the lack of caring about the Presidential election.

This time, you should have the Gas Tax repeal measures on the ballot, the US House of Representatives races, which are expected to be major campaigns by both sides. So it looks like a lot of voters will be motivated to vote in Anaheim, especially the city council races, as a lot of residents are very frustrated in how the city is dealing with the Homeless issue on the Santa Ana River and elsewhere in the city. (They want enforcement and the large camps closed down. Add other local issues, and I think The current council will be changed dramatically, including a new Mayor not in Mayor Tait's image, and a new councilmember to replace Dr. Moreno.

http://www.ocregister.com/2017/09/1...or-homeless-who-are-living-on-riverbed-trail/

>>
ANAHEIM – In an attempt to help cure the growing problem of homeless people putting down stakes along the Santa Ana River Trail, the City Council could decide Tuesday, Sept. 12, whether to declare a state of emergency.

The seven-member council could take action on the polarizing homeless situation that has divided residents, homeless advocates, and city and Orange County leaders grappling with how best to address the problem.

“We are at a crisis point,” said Councilwoman Kris Murray, who introduced a proposal called Operation Home Safe. “The level of disease, the increase in property crimes, the threat to public safety to those who bike and walk along the Santa Ana River Trail and neighboring communities – we have residents crying out for help.”<<

 

[Darkbeer1]

Not quite the scenario you are describing, but New York is going to move to tollbooth less tolls for the bridges entering the city, starting with Manhattan. To give folks an idea of the level of efficiency an automated system can provide.

We have had that here for years in Orange County and California. The system is called FasTrak, and now even has a switch to claim how many folks are in the vehicle,

The first big use was on the 91 Express Lanes, now all the Toll Roads in Orange County are electronic, as are the LA County Express Lanes. Heck, even the Golden Gate Bridge is all electronic tolls.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FasTrak

But with camera's, violators can be sent tickets automatically to the owner of the car depending payment, plus law enforcement can enforce it at the time.

Many private lots have systems that use a similar device, or license plate readers. But if the gate doesn't open, usually the vehicle can back up and go to a place to pay. But there is no way to back up at Disneyland's lots the vast majority of the time.

 

[TP2000]

Thank you, thank you, thank you @Darkbeer1 ! I missed that article in the Register last month and had no idea. All very interesting, and I find your insight into the November '18 local elections and ballot measures to be spot on. That will be a very important local election night to watch next year.

This new Westin will look very nice, and be a big improvement for Katella Avenue and the massive Convention Center site. I'm sure the big Hilton on Convention Way is worried a bit.

 

[TP2000]

We have had that here for years in Orange County and California. The system is called FasTrak, and now even has a switch to claim how many folks are in the vehicle,

The first big use was on the 91 Express Lanes, now all the Toll Roads in Orange County are electronic, as are the LA County Express Lanes. Heck, even the Golden Gate Bridge is all electronic tolls.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FasTrak

I lived in several big cities in the Northeast in the 80's and 90's, and they still haven't quite gotten with the times back there when it comes to toll roads. They are legacy systems dating back to the mid 20th century, where the job of toll collectors in snappy hats was a ubiquitous part of traveling on highways. I'm sure the toll collector's union has been fighting the electronic toll system tooth and nail, while it was never an issue and rolled out smoothly over SoCal tollways 15 years ago.

East Coast Toll Booth circa 1975 - He's smiling because he thinks a computer will never take his job.

 

[Darkbeer1]

. I fore see some of the good neighbor hotels getting squeezed out so Disney can buy them and make their own Dis bubble. So, getting off property which has higher resort taxes, eating at non property establishments to save a buck or too, but still paying the higher taxes to the city will funnel more directly into Dis, as they make it easier to stay on property, eat on property, and generally never leave the Disney Bubble..

Disney tried to do that decades ago and got shut down. Most of the properties were family owned, and some still are. They talked to each other, and figured out quickly when some "independent" was really Disney. They helped each other out if their was a financial issue, and agreed to sell to each other first, and never to Disney. The Strawberry field where Toy Story is today is a classic example of it,

By the way, the TOT taxes, sales tax, etc. are exactly the same staying on property or off.

Ok, folks, here is some Insider info very few folks know about, and isn't really discussed.

How did Disney get ahold of the Carousel?

Well ,the property ended up as part of the Wincome Group, which has routes from one of the original non-Disney hotel owners families.

Disney was desperate for a piece of property to make the Eastern Gateway project. Disney recently got the commercial property on Manchester in a cash deal, which included taking over the lease of the USCIS building. The property was thought of as not very good at the time, but Disney did pay a premium for it.

So Wincome was working on long term plans, such as potential rebuilding of properties they owned. Disney started to talk to them about how they could work together in the future. So a deal was made, Wincome needed some funds to start new major projects, Disney wanted upscale hotels in the area, so they agreed to work on the council to get the 4-star rebates for both of them. (It was already done for the GardenWalk properties, and Wincome had the Anaheim Plaza Hotel they got from Good Hope, and was worried about the new Hotels, currently planned for a JW Marriott, but was going to be a non-Disney owned, but Disney Managed property at one time.

So Wincome knew they had to do something with the property, and did not want a Disney operated property there. Wincome was thinking about a "business" hotel for the Anabella, but hadn't decided yet. So the deal was, Disney would pay a premium price for the Carousel, agree to not manage off-property hotels, and use their political clout to get the rebates for Wincome approved. The city was interested, but wanted a gentleman's agreement for a true Business Hotel with multiple meeting rooms next to the convention center, and even work on a special walkway between the convention center and the Wincome project. Disney was planning a 4th Hotel anyway, but hadn't decided on a timeline, but was looking to match it up with the Galaxy Edge opening. So Disney was onboard with adjusting its timeframe to match up with the Wincome projects, since the Eastern Gateway had a higher priority than a new Hotel. So basically everyone was going to be a winner. Of course, the outsiders, such as UNITE Here who truly wants to be at the top, but keeps losing in Anaheim, and causes the leadership a LOT of frustrations, and the Mayor Tait wasn't part of the discussion, which made him an outsider. and why he always wants revenge on the "old council".

So that is a brief summary of one of the main reasons the "powers to be" got the LA Times hit piece written and published to time up with the start of the upcoming City Election Campaigns. (Candidates for Mayor are kicking off their campaigns).

 

[Darkbeer1]

This new Westin will look very nice, and be a big improvement for Katella Avenue and the massive Convention Center site. I'm sure the big Hilton on Convention Way is worried a bit.

Well, the Hilton just finished up a major upgrade, and is happy with ACC North opening.

The Marriott is the next one, it should be interesting to see when they can find time for a refurb, as the bookings for both the Hilton and Marriott are doing quite well with the Convention Center increased bookings. October 20th though 22nd should be interesting, as the State Republican Party.Convention is at the ACC.

But, there is plenty of demand for all three properties. Also the Sheraton Park and Red Lion gets a good chunk of its business from the Convention Center as compared to Disney Tourists.

If there is a loser, it would by the Hyatt at Harbor and Chapman, which has been used quite a bit by Convention Center attendees. (They have a nice, but old, mini-Convention Hall).

 

[TP2000]

Absolutely fascinating Darkbeer! The LA Times certainly was a hit piece, in the classic sense of that word. I found it to be laughably slanted, and so obviously in the tank for anyone or anything that is anti-Disneyland, that I just had to chuckle at it. And to think Old Media workhorses like the Times still think anyone with more than a 10th grade education can't see through their propaganda and obvious bias. Whatever.

Pages and pages later, no one has yet been able to answer the most basic question here...

If 43% of the annual city tax base is not paying a "Fair Share", then exactly what should that percentage be that Disneyland pays to Anaheim's general fund to do business in that city? What is the percentage of taxes Disneyland should pay annually to Anaheim to be considered "fair"???

Anyone?... Even just a ballpark figure?...

 

[Darkbeer1]

To the current Tait-Moreno council, enough to fund their pet projects with enough kickbacks to pay off their campaign supporters.

Maybe a nice large Homeless Shelter run by Union Labor at the Eastern Gateway property. (Convert the Santa Ana River Trail to allow Disney Guest Parking

Also to upgrade and pay off ARTIC, maybe make that the new gateway. Add more city parking (at a fee) and folks could ride ART buses to the parks.

 

[DisneyDrum]

What is the percentage of taxes Disneyland should pay annually to Anaheim to be considered "fair"???

Anyone?... Even just a ballpark figure?...

I agree that the title of the LA Times article isn't the best, and in just a few message board posts @Darkbeer1 has done a better job of illuminating the Anaheim political situation than the LA Times. However- I'd like to flip your question around. What's the right level of taxes for Disney to pay? 40%, 30%, 20%???

I don't think the percentage of taxes is really the best way to judge the relationship between Anaheim and the city. The fact that Disney pays lots of taxes shouldn't give it a free pass from question about its political influence. I think the ticket tax deal was poorly though out and Disney spent too long avoiding dealing with the parking situation.

But, maybe we just have to wait for the next election...

 

[TP2000]

I agree that the title of the LA Times article isn't the best, and in just a few message board posts @Darkbeer1 has done a better job of illuminating the Anaheim political situation than the LA Times. However- I'd like to flip your question around. What's the right level of taxes for Disney to pay? 40%, 30%, 20%???

I don't think the percentage of taxes is really the best way to judge the relationship between Anaheim and the city. The fact that Disney pays lots of taxes shouldn't give it a free pass from question about its political influence. I think the ticket tax deal was poorly though out and Disney spent too long avoiding dealing with the parking situation.

But, maybe we just have to wait for the next election...

The LA Times only mirrors the popular approved thinking of today's Left that profitable private industry is not "fair" to anyone below the middle class. You can't fault the Times for that, as it's the only way they are allowed to think and communicate now.

But what is the "fair" amount of taxes Disneyland should pay to Anaheim's general fund? If 43% is not fair, what is that number? 50%? 60%? 90%?

No one ever seems able to answer that very simple question. Not even the LA Times.

 

[DisneyDrum]

But what is the "fair" amount of taxes Disneyland should pay to Anaheim's general fund? If 43% is not fair, what is that number? 50%? 60%? 90%?

Disney should pay for their impact on Anaheim - including the vehicle traffic they generate. They should pay property taxes comparable to the rest of the city. The model of the city paying for resort district improvements and making it up in hotel taxes seems to minimize the cost to Disney. I think Disney should pay for the necessary improvements to minimize the impact of guests on the city. Do I have a number...No. It's not my job - Disney and the city need to figure out. Hopefully soon so the Eastern gateway can get started.

 

[flynnibus]

I lived in several big cities in the Northeast in the 80's and 90's, and they still haven't quite gotten with the times back there when it comes to toll roads. They are legacy systems dating back to the mid 20th century, where the job of toll collectors in snappy hats was a ubiquitous part of traveling on highways. I'm sure the toll collector's union has been fighting the electronic toll system tooth and nail, while it was never an issue and rolled out smoothly over SoCal tollways 15 years ago.

East Coast Toll Booth circa 1975 - He's smiling because he thinks a computer will never take his job.

uhh... EZPass has been prolific up and down the east coast metro areas for .. 10-20 years now? In the 90s many states had their own localized system, but everyone partnered together under EZPass years ago. EZPass started in 1990 and is now used in 16 states.

What is less frequent is the 'electronic only' toll roads, but anything built in the last decade is that way.

 

[Darkbeer1]

Getting back to the transportation issues and parking.

Disney has always known about the state safety laws and trams. The law allows pretty much anything to be used for trams, heck I still think some county fairs use tractors pulling long flat trailers with benches attached.

Disney first came across the issue with the trams going to the Disneyland Hotel over West St. Even back then, they had to meet a slightly higher standard and get state license plates. So the Hotel Tram was always different.

So when the park become a resort, a tramway was designed to go from Mickey and Friends to the parks, and Disneyland Drive went over it. Lawsuit had them add doors, but still a free for all in lack of rules. Disney did get a waiver in the early years that allowed a tram to cross Disneyland Dr. to the Paradise Pier Hotel, but it was only for a limited time.

So when Toy Story became a parking lot, Disney had to use Street Legal vehicles, and made a complex deal where the city (aka ART) would run the buses (which came from the OCTA in another deal to benefit the government). The deal cost Disney Millions a year, which eats into the parking fees collected.

And even with a fleet of buses, the lines to board in peak times are very long, I have heard, seen and been in them, sometimes over an hour wait even at maximum capacity. and when it gets busy, it gets worse.

The way Toy Story works, the main stop is in the main west lot. But when they have to open the secondary lot, a second stop is made, which really slows things down due to strollers and wheelchairs.

And when the Katella CM lot is converted to Guest Parking on peak days, three stops are made in each direction. This just slows down the entire route due to traffic flow.

So when Disney decided it was time to build the Pumbaa structure, it was an easy decision to build the Eastern Gateway to make it feel like guests are leaving the structure and stepping onto Disney property, eliminating the need for any sort of transit. The bridge is designed for large peak crowds (15,000 per hour including strollers and wheelchairs). while there are initial up front costs, the cost savings are substantial.

In case you don't know, it was always Disney's responsibility to build the new structure, and never the city. Disney is looking for help in upgrading the nearby city streets (Harbor at Manchester to include longer and multiple left turn lanes from Harbor going south to Manchester, plus changes to Disney Way between Pummba and the I-5 on/off ramps. Disney can't do the work, but will come to an agreement as to paying for the improvements. My guess, the costs will be shared by the city, OCTA, Cal-Trans and Disney.

For CM parking, we have a separate company running its shuttles. One big issue is state labor laws and when will an employee (CM) be considered on the clock. Is it when they board the bus, maybe after 15 minutes of boarding, or the current policy of it not being on the clock. The state is looking to make changes which would increase labor costs. Also labor union agreements could force a change in policy.

So any future remote parking will have to address those issues.

Also, it is in Disney's best interest to get the vehicles off public roadways as quickly as possible, as they have to pay the costs of the Anaheim PD directing traffic they caused.

So a large group of cans with worms in them.