KODAK Wanting Out of Imagination?

[misterID]

Ok I am going to play "bean counter" for a moment. I am going to make an argument that it makes sense to shutter JIYI and HISTA/EO

First I am going to take the yearly theme park attendance figures.

MK - 17,063,000
EPCOT - 10,935,000
DHS - 9,608,000
DAK - 9,540,000

So the average daily attendance for each park is as follows:

MK - 46,747
EPCOT - 29,958
DHS - 26,323
DAK - 26,136

Now let's look at the maximum capacity for these parks.

MK - 75,000
EPCOT - 90,000
DHS - 45,000
DAK - 38,000

Now let's see where these parks are comparing to their theoretical attendance capacity.

MK - 62%
EPCOT - 33%
DHS - 58%
DAK - 68%

So one could argue that EPCOT is performing far lower than any other theme park. One could then argue, that it has too much to do in the open space alloted, and that the shuttering of WOL and other pavilions is warranted, in order to streamline labor.

If Epcot was operating at the same level as MK it would have over 22,000,000 visitors a year.

So there is clearly potential for EPCOT to be a crowd swallower, but as of right now it just isn't performing anywhere near the level it should be. So close some spaces, and make the other spaces for efficient.

Yeah, lets not bring out the park's potential and raise attendance by investing in it, but instead, lets slice it up, shutter rides, build more over priced restaurants and save as much money as possible so it looks good on the budget reports.

I honestly don't get the logic. They could be making crazy money if they built it up, especially world showcase. If you build more attractions, more people will visit and spend more money. But they're totally content with EPCOT as is.

There is no logic to it. Because you're reducing it so much that it will lose any and all appeal. Those numbers are not going to stay the same if more attractions are shut down and costs are slashed even more. They will keep going down.

 

[JWG]

Ok I am going to play "bean counter" for a moment. I am going to make an argument that it makes sense to shutter JIYI and HISTA/EO

First I am going to take the yearly theme park attendance figures.

MK - 17,063,000
EPCOT - 10,935,000
DHS - 9,608,000
DAK - 9,540,000

So the average daily attendance for each park is as follows:

MK - 46,747
EPCOT - 29,958
DHS - 26,323
DAK - 26,136

Now let's look at the maximum capacity for these parks.

MK - 75,000
EPCOT - 90,000
DHS - 45,000
DAK - 38,000

Now let's see where these parks are comparing to their theoretical attendance capacity.

MK - 62%
EPCOT - 33%
DHS - 58%
DAK - 68%

So one could argue that EPCOT is performing far lower than any other theme park. One could then argue, that it has too much to do in the open space alloted, and that the shuttering of WOL and other pavilions is warranted, in order to streamline labor.

If Epcot was operating at the same level as MK it would have over 22,000,000 visitors a year.

So there is clearly potential for EPCOT to be a crowd swallower, but as of right now it just isn't performing anywhere near the level it should be. So close some spaces, and make the other spaces for efficient.

This doesn't account for quality of attraction. Sure the park can eat people, but people aren't willing to be eaten by many of the attractions which reduce its real capacity. Think of the attractions that don't eat people because no one cares:
- HISTA (EO will be a short-term fix)
- JIYI w/ Figment
- Mission Space (Green never has more than a 20 minute wait)
- Seas with Nemo (has a line at times, but rarely long - at least not on our trips)
- Living with the Land (line is artificial as Soarin' overflow in my mind)
- SSE (at times)

You're left with:
- Test Track
- Soarin'
- Universe of Energy (only because it eats so many at once)

The list of non-eaters is bigger than eaters. I'd agree with you if Epcot had fully utilized solid attractions that people attended. But they don't. Soarin' and Test Track absolutely need a real relief valve for people.

- SSE (at times)

 

[Animaniac93-98]

- SSE (at times)

I thought SSE was the most visited attraction in all of WDW?

On a different note, if Kodak has indeed left Imagination! that would make 5 Future World pavilions (including WoL) without sponsors.

 

[_Scar]

So does that mean DAK is the park that least needs expansion?!


I see what you're saying, but use of capacity should not and does not determine when expansion is needed.

 

[misterID]

- Living with the Land (line is artificial as Soarin' overflow in my mind)

Believe it or not, but as far back as I can remember Living With The Land has always had big lines.

 

[Mr.EPCOT]

Yeah, lets not bring out the park's potential and raise attendance by investing in it, but instead, lets slice it up, shutter rides, build more over priced restaurants and save as much money as possible so it looks good on the budget reports.

I honestly don't get the logic. They could be making crazy money if they built it up, especially world showcase. If you build more attractions, more people will visit and spend more money. But they're totally content with EPCOT as is.

There is no logic to it. Because you're reducing it so much that it will lose any and all appeal. Those numbers are not going to stay the same if more attractions are shut down and costs are slashed even more. They will keep going down.

Bingo.

 

[PalisadesPkteer]

Here is something that should be of interest.

Title says it all, Kodak is no longer the sponsor of the Imagination pavilion at Epcot. Efforts to remove the remaining signs will be carried out over the next month or so, and Kodak's post-show demonstration has already been vacated and the actors laid-off.


from MouseInfo.com heres link http://www.mouseinfo.com/forums/walt-disney-world/92142-kodak-drops-imagination.html

Is this confirmed?

 

[SeaCastle]

Can anyone vouch for the extent of Kodak's sponsorship termination? Is it only for the pavilion but does it extend to the 3-D shows, park maps, etc. ?

 

[FigmentJedi]

Did anyone ever video the full "Giant Camera" post show thing? Kinda curious in a complete version for the Figment animation.

 

[BrerFrog]

Does anyone have any idea what the leaving of Kodak means to the future of the pavilion?

I know that at this point we can only assume what will happen, maybe they will find a new sponsor that is willing to put money into restoring the whole thing, or there is always the chance that it will be sponsor-less like The Land, The Seas and Universe of Energy.

 

[OFTeric]

So does that mean DAK is the park that least needs expansion?!


I see what you're saying, but use of capacity should not and does not determine when expansion is needed.

But if you know people who are bean counters the logic really is...

Epcot has received some of the most capital investment in the past few years, Mission: Space, Soarin', The Seas with Nemo and Friends, not to mention some expensive refurbs like Spaceship Earth, Journey into your imagination, Mexico Pavillion (now starring donald duck), etc.

Epcot just hasn't worked in it's current form. Project Gemini addressed a lot of these issues, but we all know what happened with that.

 

[Future Guy]

But if you know people who are bean counters the logic really is...

Epcot has received some of the most capital investment in the past few years, Mission: Space, Soarin', The Seas with Nemo and Friends, not to mention some expensive refurbs like Spaceship Earth, Journey into your imagination, Mexico Pavillion (now starring donald duck), etc.

Epcot just hasn't worked in it's current form. Project Gemini addressed a lot of these issues, but we all know what happened with that.

If by "its current form" you mean a mishmash of underfunded, slapped-together attractions designed to be as cheap as possible, then I agree with you. The single biggest problem EPCOT has had, dating back to the Eisner administration, is a fundamental unwillingness on the part of the powers that be to spend money on the place. You know why the Imagination pavilion is in such a pitiful state? Because the 1998 rehab that gutted it was done solely for the purpose of making it cheaper to operate.

The cost-cutting that's been done in the other parks has been, for the most part, not very obvious to guests. But at EPCOT, the cost-cutting whacks you right in the face. They don't even try to disguise it! TDO usually manages to avoid any cracks in that happy Disney facade, but at EPCOT their complete and utter contempt for the customers is impossible to miss. It's the same problem almost all of corporate America has, really: the executives act as though the company exists for the sole purpose of providing them with huge bonuses and lavish perks, and they'll do anything to preserve those things, even if they have to take a huge steaming dump on their customers in full view of the public.

 

[RSoxNo1]

Ok I am going to play "bean counter" for a moment. I am going to make an argument that it makes sense to shutter JIYI and HISTA/EO

First I am going to take the yearly theme park attendance figures.

MK - 17,063,000
EPCOT - 10,935,000
DHS - 9,608,000
DAK - 9,540,000

So the average daily attendance for each park is as follows:

MK - 46,747
EPCOT - 29,958
DHS - 26,323
DAK - 26,136

Now let's look at the maximum capacity for these parks.

MK - 75,000
EPCOT - 90,000
DHS - 45,000
DAK - 38,000

Now let's see where these parks are comparing to their theoretical attendance capacity.

MK - 62%
EPCOT - 33%
DHS - 58%
DAK - 68%

So one could argue that EPCOT is performing far lower than any other theme park. One could then argue, that it has too much to do in the open space alloted, and that the shuttering of WOL and other pavilions is warranted, in order to streamline labor.

If Epcot was operating at the same level as MK it would have over 22,000,000 visitors a year.

So there is clearly potential for EPCOT to be a crowd swallower, but as of right now it just isn't performing anywhere near the level it should be. So close some spaces, and make the other spaces for efficient.

First off, this is a fantastic post. Where did you get the park capacity #'s? I mean the seem to be about right I'm just curious.

This doesn't account for quality of attraction. Sure the park can eat people, but people aren't willing to be eaten by many of the attractions which reduce its real capacity. Think of the attractions that don't eat people because no one cares:
- HISTA (EO will be a short-term fix)
- JIYI w/ Figment
- Mission Space (Green never has more than a 20 minute wait)
- Seas with Nemo (has a line at times, but rarely long - at least not on our trips)
- Living with the Land (line is artificial as Soarin' overflow in my mind)
- SSE (at times)

You're left with:
- Test Track
- Soarin'
- Universe of Energy (only because it eats so many at once)

The list of non-eaters is bigger than eaters. I'd agree with you if Epcot had fully utilized solid attractions that people attended. But they don't. Soarin' and Test Track absolutely need a real relief valve for people.

- SSE (at times)

I would agree with you here, and you didn't even mention stuff in World Showcase. Epcot's attractions have huge capacities, but the demand doesn't merit it. Sadly additions to the park aren't what needs to happen (in Future World) things need to be replaced.

I thought SSE was the most visited attraction in all of WDW?

On a different note, if Kodak has indeed left Imagination! that would make 5 Future World pavilions (including WoL) without sponsors.

SSE was the most visited attraction, although last I heard it was overtaken by Soarin'

 

[OFTeric]

First off, this is a fantastic post. Where did you get the park capacity #'s? I mean the seem to be about right I'm just curious.

Once upon a time i had a blue badge. To this day I maintain strong relationships with people all over the WDC.

 

[RSoxNo1]

Once upon a time i had a blue badge. To this day I maintain strong relationships with people all over the WDC.

How have these changed over the years?

I'd be interested to see how daily capacity vs. annual attendance has changed over the years. Did the Magic Kingdom have a higher capacity back when 20,000 Leagues was open?

 

[OFTeric]

How have these changed over the years?

I'd be interested to see how daily capacity vs. annual attendance has changed over the years. Did the Magic Kingdom have a higher capacity back when 20,000 Leagues was open?

So here is what I have been able to gather online.

Here is a great article detailing out the hopes of Epcot from 1983
http://news.google.com/newspapers?n...dsPAAAAIBAJ&sjid=ho0DAAAAIBAJ&pg=4750,6373873

Here is attendance from 1998 to 2001
http://www.solarius.com/dvp/wdw/attendance_figures.htm

I have been trying to locate some figure prior to 1998 preferably 1996 2 years before DAK.

Basically they have gotten little to no ROI on the money they have spent on Epcot. They have maintained the status quo, while Magic Kingdom and Epcot have benefited the most from marketing and capital expenditures.

 

[misterID]

If by "its current form" you mean a mishmash of underfunded, slapped-together attractions designed to be as cheap as possible, then I agree with you. The single biggest problem EPCOT has had, dating back to the Eisner administration, is a fundamental unwillingness on the part of the powers that be to spend money on the place. You know why the Imagination pavilion is in such a pitiful state? Because the 1998 rehab that gutted it was done solely for the purpose of making it cheaper to operate.

The cost-cutting that's been done in the other parks has been, for the most part, not very obvious to guests. But at EPCOT, the cost-cutting whacks you right in the face. They don't even try to disguise it! TDO usually manages to avoid any cracks in that happy Disney facade, but at EPCOT their complete and utter contempt for the customers is impossible to miss. It's the same problem almost all of corporate America has, really: the executives act as though the company exists for the sole purpose of providing them with huge bonuses and lavish perks, and they'll do anything to preserve those things, even if they have to take a huge steaming dump on their customers in full view of the public.

Yes.

Project Gemini wouldn't have solved EPCOT'S problems.

Imagination was their most popular ride in the park, and one of the most popular in all of WDW. They decided to cost cut it instead of fighting for a new refurb to make it more reliable and keep the theme going. That was all on Disney.

They've thrown huge amounts of money on "good ideas" that weren't executed well. And they understimated their actual appeal.

They thought adding an experimental 100 million dollar thrill ride would solve a lot of its probelms. It didn't. Test Track was better, but it goes to show you that they "had" to bring in Soarin and it's the most popular thrill ride in EPCOT that's not exactly an actual thrill ride. That should tell you something there.

World Showcase could be a Gold mine. But they're content with it being a mall.

Instead of singular attractions they should have invested in the park. I don't think converting it to project gemini would have helped, because I'm just not sold on the concept. I don't even think that the PJ's flagship attraction TIME RACERS was even structurally feasible at SSE. Not saying they couldn't have put it somewhere else.

They just really don't know what to do with EPCOT and its mind boggling.

 

[Animaniac93-98]

They just really don't know what to do with EPCOT and its mind boggling.

I'm guessing they do, but have no idea how to fund it with only 4 Future World pavilions having sponsors. Especially when 3, if not all 4, are unlikely to change in the immediate future:

Mission Space: only 7 years old
SSE: Major refurbishment in 2007
Innoventions: Regularity getting updates
Test Track: 11 years open now, but still less than WoM's run and likely still popular enough to keep at this point.

 

[OFTeric]

I'm guessing they do, but have no idea how to fund it with only 4 Future World pavilions having sponsors. Especially when 3, if not all 4, are unlikely to change in the immediate future:

Mission Space: only 7 years old
SSE: Major refurbishment in 2007
Innoventions: Regularity getting updates
Test Track: 11 years open now, but still less than WoM's run and likely still popular enough to keep at this point.

Epcot improvements since test track

1998
Sponsored by General Motors, Test Track makes its debut at the former site of World of Motion in Future World at Epcot.

2000
Journey into Your Imagination opens at Epcot.

2002
Journey into Imagination with Figment opens at Epcot.

2003
Mission: SPACE, a state-of-the-art thrill ride, opens at the site of the former Horizons attraction at Epcot.

2004
Turtle Talk with Crush! opens in The Living Seas at Epcot.
Food Rocks closes at Epcot's Land Pavilion.

2005
Soarin’, a “high-flying adventure,” opens in The Land Pavilion at Epcot.

2006
The Living Seas Pavilion becomes The Seas With Nemo and Friends Pavilion.

2007
El Rio Del Tiempo at the Mexico Pavilion reopens as Gran Fiesta Tour Starring The Three Caballeros.
The Project Tomorrow: Inventing the Wonders of the Future exhibit opens at Spaceship Earth.

2008
Spaceship Earth relaunches at Epcot.

2009
Kim Possible World Showcase Adventure opens at Epcot.

 

[RSoxNo1]

So here is what I have been able to gather online.

Here is a great article detailing out the hopes of Epcot from 1983
http://news.google.com/newspapers?n...dsPAAAAIBAJ&sjid=ho0DAAAAIBAJ&pg=4750,6373873

Here is attendance from 1998 to 2001
http://www.solarius.com/dvp/wdw/attendance_figures.htm

I have been trying to locate some figure prior to 1998 preferably 1996 2 years before DAK.

Basically they have gotten little to no ROI on the money they have spent on Epcot. They have maintained the status quo, while Magic Kingdom and Epcot have benefited the most from marketing and capital expenditures.

Excellent, I'll look at this stuff when I go home I know attendance over the last 10 years is available as well, I just have to look for it.

Epcot improvements since test track

1998
Sponsored by General Motors, Test Track makes its debut at the former site of World of Motion in Future World at Epcot.

2000
Journey into Your Imagination opens at Epcot.

2002
Journey into Imagination with Figment opens at Epcot.

2003
Mission: SPACE, a state-of-the-art thrill ride, opens at the site of the former Horizons attraction at Epcot.

2004
Turtle Talk with Crush! opens in The Living Seas at Epcot.
Food Rocks closes at Epcot's Land Pavilion.

2005
Soarin’, a “high-flying adventure,” opens in The Land Pavilion at Epcot.

2006
The Living Seas Pavilion becomes The Seas With Nemo and Friends Pavilion.

2007
El Rio Del Tiempo at the Mexico Pavilion reopens as Gran Fiesta Tour Starring The Three Caballeros.
The Project Tomorrow: Inventing the Wonders of the Future exhibit opens at Spaceship Earth.

2008
Spaceship Earth relaunches at Epcot.

2009
Kim Possible World Showcase Adventure opens at Epcot.

So you look at this list and you see three things that were intended to increase attendance: Test Track, Mission: SPACE and Soarin'

Test Track came on line around Animal Kingdom and was built largely because they didn't want Epcot's attendance to drop too much as a result of Animal Kingdom opening. It was delayed, and the park attendance dropped.

Mission: SPACE replaced another high capacity attraction, and wasn't the smash hit that was expected. I'm not sure what the capacity numbers were between Horizons and Mission: SPACE, but I always remember short waits for Horizons and short waits for Mission: SPACE.

Really the only thing that should have done anything to the attendance has been Soarin'. Replacing Food Rocks should be a decent boost, as that show was rarely crowded. I don't think the theater was that large so I can't imagine it was capable of accomodating more people than Soarin'

Looking at the problems in the park right now, you see huge capacity attractions with limited demand for that capacity:
Universe of Energy
Journey Into Imagination with Figment
Gran Fiesta Tour
The Seas with Nemo and Friends
Spaceship Earth
Living with the Land

To me the top two are the biggest opportunities for replacement. Pooh's Honey Hunt Technology over in the Imagination Pavilion will be a huge improvement, but it's possible that the replacement of the current ride would also take over the show space, and then you actually drop the capacity of the park but raise the attendance.