Killing the MAGIC slowly..

Horizons38

Premium Member
Originally posted by grizzlyhall
I have some Horizons stuff, too! I won't sell that!

You're right, as bad as that is, ( i have a few Horizons pieces,) you could never get me to sell them ! Other rides maybe but not Horizons ! All of us have our sentimental stuff i guess ! Could you see us all getting to Disney to meet and bring some of our treasures, we would have a ball ! :D It would be like in school when you had show and tell !:D Hi i'm Chantal and this is my Horizons brick ! :cool:
 

Florida Man

Active Member
Originally posted by Testtrack321
Your ranting and raving and calling this whole post about killing the magic is really pathetic. I'm getting tired of the type A Disfreaks who can't have any attraction altered unless Walt did it (even if it turns out good.) If you think that keeping 20 year old rides and mearly 'updating' them to fit your needs and demands is good for FURTURE WORLD (hence the name, FUTURE, not NOSTALGIA World), then move over. I find it incredibly rude and disgusting when people CONSTANTLY complain about a new ride just by what it sounds like but not what it is. Sure, people can complain about TT and such, but due to contract negiotiations, it had to be removed. No if ands or buts.

If Disney's main goal is to appease 10 people who think this ride has to stay or that the world will come down, then you have some priorities mixed up.

NOTE: Disney's main quest is to appease the customer and returing ones. Most people returning and new think SE is long and borring (I love it, but face it, it's old, loud, and in need of replacement.)

I totally 110% agree with you.
 

Disneynutcase

New Member
Is it me, or is everyone missing the main jist of how Epcot attractions get made? In essense, Epcot is like Tokyo Disney Sea, except they didn't find just one source to co-finance the park. Instead Disney sought out (and continues to seek out) foreign countries to co-sponsor and help finance WS pavilions and corporations to finance and sponsor FW pavilions.

Didn't both WoM and JII die because GM and Kodak had clauses in their sponsorship contracts that more or less forced Disney into altering these attractions?

As much as we can be dismayed that FW pavilions get altered, and especially over the speculation of SE (at least the ride as we know it now) may bite the dust, I think we all need to step back and realize what Disney has to do to keep this park alive and fresh.

In a perfect world, LS, WoL, and even the Land would get the rehabs. But apparently Kraft is satisfied with the Land. And there have been plenty of news and posts over the years about how Disney is hurting for LS and WoL corporate sponsorship--i.e. no one out there seems to be interested. And what have we been hearing recently? AT&T is pulling out of SE.

Thus comes two points of logic. 1) Disney can't just go out by themselves and build new attractions in Epcot on their own or they'll be hard pressed to find corporations and/or foreign countries who won't say, "go ahead and do it yourself, then put our name on it." In a nutshell, it will set a bad precedent that Disney will be hard-pressed to recover from. 2) Getting a new major corporation to take over and help Disney re-do probably the most signature attraction in all of Epcot--Spaceship Earth--might actually work more magic for the park than we all realize.

Yes, I am sad to hear rumors that SE might go. I also fear that the park may change for the worse as a result of the bad changes that have already taken place (particularly in the Imagination pavilion). But placing a kick- ride that everyone is going to be clamoring to go on at probably the best ride location in any Disney park is real sexy for most corporations. And the ride DOES NOT have to be a coaster or even a thrill ride to be kick .

Now take into consideration the rumor that Microsoft wants to sponsor a new Epcot pavilion, namely SE. Think about it--if you're Bill Gates, wouldn't you want SE as your company's Epcot ride locale? The name Microsoft will be one of the first things all patrons will see once they enter Epcot. Talk about primo advertizing.

I think a true undisputed success or two--like M:S coming through as a great attraction and then a great innovative makes-even-nostaligia-nuts-happy kind of ride for Time Racers--might be the key to a true cash infusion to the park. And not only in terms of increasing the number of guests, but also in a way to increase sponsor interest in FW.

And yes, I know that Project: Gemini is money that was once devoted to WDW park #5, and that Disney is talking about putting big $$ of their own into Epcot, but I think their overall goal is to have an attraction that will be so ahead of its time that they won't have to change it for a long, long time (and they won't be completely financing it themselves) as well as keeping Microsoft on board as this pavilion's sponsor for as long as they can get 'em.
 

Pumbas Nakasak

Heading for the great escape.
Strange that the implication from many here is that only thrill rides would generate interest. I take it that you may be representative of youfff culture. And given the vacuous nature of people like my daughter you may be right in assuming that any attraction that is remotely educational would be lost. But buy its nature thrill rides cease to be thrilling if repeated too often.

Perhaps a wonder over to AK would explain why some people are worried at the prospect of change under the present management regime.

Incase you missunderstand I love coasters/ thrill rides but not everyone in my family can ride them spare a thought for those who would be unable to ride ever increasing numbers of attractions.
 

no2apprentice

Well-Known Member
NOTE: Disney's main quest is to appease the customer and returing ones. Most people returning and new think SE is long and borring (I love it, but face it, it's old, loud, and in need of replacement.) [/B]

Unfortunately, I don't feel this is the case right now. Disney's main quest seems to be how much can they cut from the budget and still keep quality rides/attractions that will draw customers. Most of us realize how much of a lose/lose strategy this is.

Happy snapper and Disneynutcase...good posts.:)
 

niteobsrvr

Well-Known Member
Originally posted by no2apprentice
Unfortunately, I don't feel this is the case right now. Disney's main quest seems to be how much can they cut from the budget and still keep quality rides/attractions that will draw customers. Most of us realize how much of a lose/lose strategy this is.

Happy snapper and Disneynutcase...good posts.:)

It has been my experience that this situation actually forces the people involved to dig deeper and become more creative and innovative. That is, after they stop moaning about being up against a wall and how impossible it is.

Anyone can make something happen with all the money in the world behind them. Its a select few very dedicated individuals that make the seemingly impossible happen on a shoestring. If necessity is the mother of invention, then low budgets are the mother of innovation.

That being said, Disney's financial situation is exactly like that of every other major corporation on Wall Street right now. Its what the wall street analysts expect. Further, its what everyone with a stock based retirement account expects.

Its kind of a catch 22 situation. Everyone wants their investment value to increase. There are only two ways to do this. One is to cut spending to show a bigger return. The other is spend more taking a chance that you have aimed your spending in the right direction and it will increase your revenue at a rate greater that your increased spending.

The first option has little risk but sometimes can alienate your customer base for a while. The second option is essentially a crap shoot. If your efforts work out well, everyone is happy. IF they fail to hit just right, cusotmers are upset at a product that doesnt live up to their expectations and investors chastise you for wasting money.

So as you can see, its not just about Eisner or anyone else in executive offices. Its about you and I and our expectations on a multitude of levels. Of course, there are ways around these quandries. There are plenty of SEC investigations right now to prove that fact.

I much prefer honesty and integrity to deception and under-handedness..
 

kennyj29

Member
I go to disney a lot and I have to say most of the rides people on this board wanted to keep-their lines were decreasing. Epcot on a whole was the park we went to at the crowded times because it was always empty. There are attractions that bring people in (food and wine festival, illuminations, etc) but the park itself was definitley emptying out. The numbers got so low that they had to do something. We all have sentimental favorites but I always look towards the future. You can't think people will flock back to attractions that are 20 years old. They get old. Of course MK is different, we have a terrific mix there. But Epcot is a park, no matter what anyone says, is definitely geared to older kids and people. When I used to bring my children there, they would balk that they were bored. They hated going around to the countries(I'm not speaking the first couple of times). It was hard to even get them to go there. We definitely need a mix in both parks. Whoever thinks Disney is only going to be thrill rides is nuts. Not everyone thinks their changes were horrible. (JII) being the one exception. Give them a break!!! How would you like to be the one figuring out what to keep and what not to keep. You have to move with the times people!!! I am no youngster so don't say I'm young, I'm not but I can even see the need for change.
 

Sherm00

New Member
Originally posted by Disneynutcase
Is it me, or is everyone missing the main jist of how Epcot attractions get made? In essense, Epcot is like Tokyo Disney Sea, except they didn't find just one source to co-finance the park. Instead Disney sought out (and continues to seek out) foreign countries to co-sponsor and help finance WS pavilions and corporations to finance and sponsor FW pavilions.

Didn't both WoM and JII die because GM and Kodak had clauses in their sponsorship contracts that more or less forced Disney into altering these attractions?

As much as we can be dismayed that FW pavilions get altered, and especially over the speculation of SE (at least the ride as we know it now) may bite the dust, I think we all need to step back and realize what Disney has to do to keep this park alive and fresh.

In a perfect world, LS, WoL, and even the Land would get the rehabs. But apparently Kraft is satisfied with the Land. And there have been plenty of news and posts over the years about how Disney is hurting for LS and WoL corporate sponsorship--i.e. no one out there seems to be interested. And what have we been hearing recently? AT&T is pulling out of SE.

Thus comes two points of logic. 1) Disney can't just go out by themselves and build new attractions in Epcot on their own or they'll be hard pressed to find corporations and/or foreign countries who won't say, "go ahead and do it yourself, then put our name on it." In a nutshell, it will set a bad precedent that Disney will be hard-pressed to recover from. 2) Getting a new major corporation to take over and help Disney re-do probably the most signature attraction in all of Epcot--Spaceship Earth--might actually work more magic for the park than we all realize.

Yes, I am sad to hear rumors that SE might go. I also fear that the park may change for the worse as a result of the bad changes that have already taken place (particularly in the Imagination pavilion). But placing a kick- ride that everyone is going to be clamoring to go on at probably the best ride location in any Disney park is real sexy for most corporations. And the ride DOES NOT have to be a coaster or even a thrill ride to be kick .

Now take into consideration the rumor that Microsoft wants to sponsor a new Epcot pavilion, namely SE. Think about it--if you're Bill Gates, wouldn't you want SE as your company's Epcot ride locale? The name Microsoft will be one of the first things all patrons will see once they enter Epcot. Talk about primo advertizing.

I think a true undisputed success or two--like M:S coming through as a great attraction and then a great innovative makes-even-nostaligia-nuts-happy kind of ride for Time Racers--might be the key to a true cash infusion to the park. And not only in terms of increasing the number of guests, but also in a way to increase sponsor interest in FW.

And yes, I know that Project: Gemini is money that was once devoted to WDW park #5, and that Disney is talking about putting big $$ of their own into Epcot, but I think their overall goal is to have an attraction that will be so ahead of its time that they won't have to change it for a long, long time (and they won't be completely financing it themselves) as well as keeping Microsoft on board as this pavilion's sponsor for as long as they can get 'em.

MS to sponser it oh great all we need is an attraction about windows and Xbox. really great a pavilian of error message :-)
 

no2apprentice

Well-Known Member
Originally posted by niteobsrvr
It has been my experience that this situation actually forces the people involved to dig deeper and become more creative and innovative. That is, after they stop moaning about being up against a wall and how impossible it is.
So will you be content when every new ride/attraction that goes in has the appeal and appearance of something similar to DinoLand U.S.A.? That went in on a shoestring budget.
 

niteobsrvr

Well-Known Member
Originally posted by no2apprentice
So will you be content when every new ride/attraction that goes in has the appeal and appearance of something similar to DinoLand U.S.A.? That went in on a shoestring budget.

I think that Chester and Hester's Dino-rama is an excellent area. It is very well themed and the rides and attractions support the storyline very well. Primeval Whirl is an excellent family type ride in addition. I very much dislike coasters and other thrill type rides but that ride is actually fun.

Thats the point isnt it? To have fun?

What is it that everyone expects Disney to build?

And can we please stop using World of Motion, Horizons, and Journey into Your Imagination as examples? The whole point of Future World is in the first half of its name. It is inevitable that the future brings change both good and bad depending on whose perspective you are using.

JIY was clearly a bad design in its second incarnation. Disney recognized that and tried to mix the old and the new in the newest version to appease as many people as possible. Clearly, they cant make everyone happy. Especially the handful of people on these boards who are always screaming about it.

The concept of timeless classics in the Magic Kingdom, as well as AK and Studios. It doesnt fare very well when the theme is the future.

You also have to ask, what happens to the Magic Kingdom as children stop identifying with the older classic cartoons. Its inevitable that as cartoons like Monsters and other Computer Generated animation continues to take over the hearts and minds of people today, that older classics will lose their appeal.

The Magic behind Disney isn't really any particular park or attraction anyway. It was about creating an atmosphere where people young and old could have fun and forget about their daily lives for a few hours.
 

Pumbas Nakasak

Heading for the great escape.
Originally posted by niteobsrvr
I think that Chester and Hester's Dino-rama is an excellent area. It is very well themed and the rides and attractions support the storyline very well. Primeval Whirl is an excellent family type ride in addition. I very much dislike coasters and other thrill type rides but that ride is actually fun.

It alldepends on your level of expectation, is it fun? yes id have to agree but is it the sort of thing that would require me to spend 9 hours on a plane and several thousand pounds to experience? No id justt drive up the road 12 miles and visit Drayton Manor.


Its cheap tacky and definately not Disney
It may be up to your standards but not mine.
 

kennyj29

Member
Well it might not be yours and it might not be mine but they have to go after people who will spend the money to come down. I have often gone down to see a new attraction where maybe I wouldn't have if it was all the same attractions. Whether it's up to your standards or not, it has to change. Disney has to change also. Not take all the attractions down but some of them and attract people that weren't normally attracted down there. They will always have their anamatronics, etc. It won't be all thrill rides because they would lose the younger families. You have to BROADEN your mind a little. So what if they failed a couple of times, nobody is perfect. Not even you I'm sure. What seems good at the time may be a bomb. That attraction won't last long either. So keep up your chin and go with the flow and maybe, just maybe, it won't be as bad as you assume. There are optomists in this world and pessamists and you won't ever agree.
 

no2apprentice

Well-Known Member
Originally posted by niteobsrvr
You also have to ask, what happens to the Magic Kingdom as children stop identifying with the older classic cartoons. Its inevitable that as cartoons like Monsters and other Computer Generated animation continues to take over the hearts and minds of people today, that older classics will lose their appeal.
This is an interesting point that my wife and I have discussed on many an occasion. When I was a child (wife also, and I believe some of you involved in some of these posts), the classics were just that - classics. Disney re-released the classics every five (or was it seven?) years. Going to see Fantasia, Sleeping Beauty, or even (gasp) SNOW WHITE was a big deal, because you just didn't see it (unless they showed a highlight on Disney's Wonderful World of Color).

Now, the classics aren't so classic anymore. Want to watch Snow White? Pop in the DVD. Want to watch Sleeping Beauty? Only have it on VHS, over there underneath Peter Pan.

And this is going to be the same with the new releases. I thought Monster's Inc. was clever, well animated, and a thoroughly entertaining movie. It is already becoming old news to many young people. Look at Toy Story and Toy Story 2 - need I mention how rare it is to have a movie sequel be as good as the first? But yet that fever has died down. I can't help but wonder how many years it will be before people start complaining that Space Ranger Spin is out of date. Two? Three? Four?

The market is just so flooded with Disney animated features, I think it would be a tremendous risk for the parks to start putting in rides just because it was a recent movie. Sure, there are new classics, but just how "long term" classic will some of these newer classics be?

When it comes to some of the classic rides based on animated features in MK, my personal feeling would be to update the effects and technology, but leave the theme in place.
 

Pumbas Nakasak

Heading for the great escape.
Originally posted by kennyj29
You have to BROADEN your mind a little. So what if they failed a couple of times, nobody is perfect. Not even you I'm sure. .
I can assure you that having travelled a little and lived life a lot my mind is as broad as it comes:) However i must admit to suffering from scynisisim especially when it comes to opinions expressed by bean counters. I do not wear Disney tinted specs and am old enough to accept that things do change, they have to. However I would appreciate if people would take the time to read and digest my post before responding with ill informed rhetoric.

For one last time if change happens I hope it retains the Disney element of the attraction but utilises the best of modern technology, however I feel ( and its only an opinion afterall) that the $$$$$ is the bottom line andthat the balance sheet is the master not customer satisfaction.
 

General Grizz

New Member
I understand what you're saying - Disney is coming more TO the people...and therefore people can't really go to Disney... that make sense? Kinda a short term broadening here...which probably won't serve TOO useful in the long run.

And there are many different types of people who go to the parks - for different reasons - and everyone sees Walt Disney World differently. Joe may like it because it has neat rides and it's fun! Susan may like it because she is overly obsessed at the thematic qualities hidden within the words and songs... So there will always be different sides - which we hope can be a good thing! :D
 

Fievel

RunDisney Addict
I'm going to officially stop reading this thread. It really has started to go beyond doing any good on any level.

I encourage you all to join me :)
 
Originally posted by Fievel
Sure...but last time I was at Epcot, TT had an hour wait, and WoE was walk on. The Animatronic rides may be fun to do, but let's face it - they're not what are bringing people in the gates, and new guests year after year. It's the promise that Disney can give them an experience that nobody else on earth can.


That's why you see rides like M:S. Disney is pushing the envelope, and continues to make people excited.


IN short....if you want to be like Walt, it's time to tune in to this decade.

Let's first examine your TT v. WoE example. TT can only load six, yes that's 6) into one vehicle and the load/unload time on these things is rather long, then you have to add in the fact that this ride brakes down about once every hour, the close times for weather, and its no wonder why it has a 1 hour wait. Now we compare it to WoE which fits what maybe two thousand onto one loading. It's no wonder why TT has an hour wait and WoE doesn't have one! Your popularity theory of thrill rides v. boring AA rides seems to fade into space once one stops and thinks and looks at reality for a change!

AA rides don't bring people into the gates!?! :confused: Have you ever been to WDW? Have you seen HM? PoC? SE? WtP(new I might add)? CBJ? SW? TGMR? SW? .......... These attractions are still among the most visited of all WDW attractions. I think that these AA rides are most definitely a major part of bringing people to the parks and nostalgia is a major part of Disney's great success. They definitely are a major part to upholding that promise of an experience that no one else can give. You must have absolute blinders on to miss this fact.

Having said all this I am not opposed to progress or change and I AM a young computer/video game generation era person. I enjoy TT and RnR, and ToT, and Splash Mountain, and probably will enjoy M:S, but you can not ignore the past and the effect (popular one I might add :animwink: ) that it is currently having and will continue to have on WDW(provided it isn't all blown up for a 2 minute thrill ride that will stay fresh for about 5 years)! Many of the AA attractions must be kept because of the unbelievable amount of magic that they keep with Disney. Epcot has already lost too many of these and a very popular and very used SE should not be changed when other areas of the park are in bad need of attention (WoL, LS, WS needs new country, Innoventions). You can have change and progress but it better be extremely magical with fresh new catchy music and themeing and be more than a cheap six flags thrill ride! Plus you can not erradicate all of the popular current magical rides just for progresses namesake. What kind of progress is it when you kill the magic slowly.....bankruptcy, takeover, depressed attendance!
Ever think that Epcots downfall is due in large part to this wonderful progress idea that has slowly killed the magic that Epcot once add. I think the problem is that TT just hasn't felt quite right as part of FW because it just seems to be a nice thrill ride that has run over the magic, run over families, run over the future theme all in the name of progress! :rolleyes:
 

kennyj29

Member
Fievel- I'm starting to agree with you. It's getting beaten to death and no matter what anyone's opinion is here, they are not going to change it (Like Grizzly said, I wouldn't want to). Let's just face the fact that we all have different opinions on the subject and leave it at that. Hey! Who has something else to discuss? Actually I would like to know except for MGM where are the soft ice cream stands at the other three parks.......? Now there is a contriversial issue :lol:
 

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