Jungle Cruise Update

[mickEblu]

My take is that there is nothing wrong with any of the figures in the context of the Jungle Cruise itself. The problem that some people may have and that Disney is trying to get ahead of is the context of those figures in Disneyland. I’m not saying that I agree or that people need to find representation in fantasy rides at a theme park but I can understand why Disney is doing this in 2021 because when you look across the park, the tribal people are the only representation of Black or African people on attractions aside from IASW

Personally, I have never once looked at anything in the park and felt like it represented me. I don’t think any non person of color has ever felt a sense of pride looking at one of the drunk Pirates, the scared grave keeper or Gepetto.

Where does Disney draw the line though? Was removing the skulls from the Adventureland entrance really necessary? Even the people suddenly bothered by Jungle Cruise (or at least vocal about it for the first time) would probably give them a pass but Disney is too scared now and would rather not deal with it.

No matter how you slice it this change makes a whole lot more sense than the Splash Mountain change.

 

[CaptinEO]

I do believe you can have different opinions and disagree. But I also believe there are areas / topics where different opinions and disagreeing is just simply not appropriate, and not valid.

Why is it not valid to disagree? The more people
that share their opinion the better.

 

[CaptinEO]

Having a “different opinion” regarding a topic such as this and disagreeing with people who are trying to explain to you how negative depictions can be and are/were harmful to them is not helpful, nor necessarily good.

I don’t think you’re racist and never accused you of racism, although I will say that marrying someone of another race doesn’t automatically not make one racist, but that’s another topic.

What is there to debate when people are talking about how they’re emotionally affected by racially stereotypical depictions? Discussion is discouraged when people dismiss the experiences of those who are trying to inform others of the issues they face in society and continuously fail to listen. In this case, it’s negative depictions of black people in a theme park.

I don’t think anyone said the depiction of a non-violent African tribe would be bad. Not sure why skin tone would matter. No one said African culture is off limits.

Oh I know you didn't accuse me of racism, but the implication from another user was that because they as a PoC had given their opinion on this, and I still had questions, that their voice was being ignored. That was not directed at you.

I was not debating or denying the fact that people did have a negative experience. My questions were about these in general (not even the Jungle Cruise itsself.

1) What is the solution to showcase tribal people (of any skin color)? Or should this be avoided outright due to bad stereotyping done in the past?

2) Is it wrong to have a group do something
violent in entertainment? IMO should natives only be portrayed as doing good things (I think it'd be cool to have both)

3) Does it take away from the representation and education of tribes to remove them from entertainment?

I do think the JC scene is super outdated and the fact that its the ONLY portrayal of African Americans is outright crazy to me.

 

[Disney Analyst]

Why is it not valid to disagree? The more people
that share their opinion the better.

Because I don’t believe there can be room for any disagreement when it comes to how people of different races / minorities are depicted, especially in the context of this conversation, especially when people from the BIPOC are explaining how it negatively impacts them.

Have a disagreement if Jungle Cruise is well themed, or if there are better attractions.. or any other trivial thing.

But when it comes to race, racism, stereotyping, and negative depictions - there just isn’t room.

 

[mickEblu]

Let’s all be glad JC isn’t turning into a Moana ride

 

[_caleb]

Personally, I have never once looked at anything in the park and felt like it represented me. I don’t think any non person of color has ever felt a sense of pride looking at one of the drunk Pirates, the scared grave keeper or Gepetto.

One reason for this might be that there are so many representations of White/European people in the parks. They all work together to demonstrate the diversity of cultures and the variety of perspectives. If there were only a few White representations in the parks, you might feel like more was riding on each of them.

To be clear—“representation” doesn’t mean, “someone who accurately depicts my culture.” It means something more like: “a depiction that is fair and true to the people represented—knowing that the audience may infer things about similar groups.”

 

[Disney Analyst]

One reason for this might be that there are so many representations of White/European people in the parks. They all work together to demonstrate the diversity of cultures and the variety of perspectives. If there were only a few White representations in the parks, you might feel like more was riding on each of them.

To be clear—“representation” doesn’t mean, “someone who accurately depicts my culture.” It means something more like: “a depiction that is fair and true to the people represented—knowing that the audience may infer things about similar groups.”

"It means something more like: “a depiction that is fair and true to the people represented—knowing that the audience may infer things about similar groups.”

And to add to that, we have to remember that as many groups have lacked and still lack any sort of meaninful representation, poor representation can be interpreted by those outside that group as being accurate. Which just exacerbates the problem further.

The parks do not have the best history for how they depict aboriginal or native peoples, whether they be from North America, Africa, or across the globe.

I'd say we need to look at the current Disneyland Railroad and the Village, that to me is the correct way to represent Indigenous peoples and their history/culture in a respectful manner. An even better way to do so would be with meaningful conversation and collaboration with those groups.

 

[mickEblu]

One reason for this might be that there are so many representations of White/European people in the parks. They all work together to demonstrate the diversity of cultures and the variety of perspectives. If there were only a few White representations in the parks, you might feel like more was riding on each of them.

To be clear—“representation” doesn’t mean, “someone who accurately depicts my culture.” It means something more like: “a depiction that is fair and true to the people represented—knowing that the audience may infer things about similar groups.”

To be fair, I’m half Italian half Jordanian so I’m still not quite sure that makes me White/ European but I won’t go down that rabbit hole.

Is there really such diverse representation though? I’f you look at the West side of the park what do you have? Indy and Drunk White-ish Pirates?

 

[Sharon&Susan]

To be fair, I’m half Italian half Jordanian so I’m still not quite sure that makes me White/ European but I won’t go down that rabbit hole.

Is there really such diverse representation though? I’f you look at the West side of the park what do you have? Indy and Drunk White-ish Pirates?

Along with Rey and Kylo Ren!

 

[mickEblu]

Along with Rey and Kylo Ren!

Wow in many ways GE doesn’t exist in my brain. I seem to forget it exists during conversations like this. It’ll take a few more years for “West side of the park” to trigger Galaxies Edge existence in my mind. Plus GE has Finn and Vi. No half Arab/ half Italians though. I guess the British female Rey is my representation there. Her or Admiral Beck.

 

[George Lucas on a Bench]

Rey's representation. She was so unnecessary to that land they easily cut her from the Covid version. It's a boys ride with guns and an otherwise All Male Cast.

 

[TragicMike]

To be fair, I’m half Italian half Jordanian so I’m still not quite sure that makes me White/ European but I won’t go down that rabbit hole.

Is there really such diverse representation though? I’f you look at the West side of the park what do you have? Indy and Drunk White-ish Pirates?

Pretty much all of Fantasyland with its Bavarian village aesthetic to its attractions based on European folklore, a giant Swiss mountain, Frontierland representing the Old West, and Main Street representing the "carefree and happy memories" of the early 1900's Americana (which let's be honest, wasn't so happy for minorities). Plus, popular titular characters like Peter Pan, King Arthur, Snow White, Cinderella, Rey, etc.

Meanwhile, as a Mexican, I get excited anytime I see a 10-second Coco clip during a parade/firework show lol.

 

[Californian Elitist]

Let’s all be glad JC isn’t turning into a Moana ride

That is definitely something to be grateful for. Even if Disney didn’t remove the Natives, these new additions would still feel lackluster.

I’ve been so unimpressed with most of the changes happening in the parks that it’s gotten to the point where I have nothing to say at all.

 

[mickEblu]

Pretty much all of Fantasyland with its Bavarian village aesthetic to its attractions based on European folklore, a giant Swiss mountain, Frontierland representing the Old West, and Main Street representing the "carefree and happy memories" of the early 1900's Americana (which let's be honest, wasn't so happy for minorities). Plus, popular titular characters like Peter Pan, King Arthur, Snow White, Cinderella, Rey, etc.

Meanwhile, as a Mexican, I get excited anytime I see a 10-second Coco clip during a parade/firework show lol.

We were talking about representation so I thought we were talking about realistic looking people. Sure, if we re throwing in settings and the 7 dwarves and the Mad Hatter that changes things. Lol

I’d love a Coco ride. As I’ve said in the past the changes need to start with the movies/ IP. But they re so far behind that instead it’s easier to remove stuff as opposed to balancing the representation that exists.

 

[Californian Elitist]

Oh I know you didn't accuse me of racism, but the implication from another user was that because they as a PoC had given their opinion on this, and I still had questions, that their voice was being ignored. That was not directed at you.

I was not debating or denying the fact that people did have a negative experience. My questions were about these in general (not even the Jungle Cruise itsself.

1) What is the solution to showcase tribal people (of any skin color)? Or should this be avoided outright due to bad stereotyping done in the past?

2) Is it wrong to have a group do something
violent in entertainment? IMO should natives only be portrayed as doing good things (I think it'd be cool to have both)

3) Does it take away from the representation and education of tribes to remove them from entertainment?

I do think the JC scene is super outdated and the fact that its the ONLY portrayal of African Americans is outright crazy to me.

I think it depends on the context. Given that there’s just a smidge of blackness in the parks, I’d say it wouldn’t be helpful to have that smidge look like “savage” Africans wielding spears.

Representation of violence in general is not a problem. However, when a group is stereotyped as being violent, aka African Americans, and one of the two examples of representation in the parks of African Americans shows them as being violent, then we need to reconsider some things.

Given that the Natives are general Africans, I doubt there’s any significant education to be had anyway. If they were from a specific tribe, that would be different.

 

[CaptinEO]

I think it depends on the context. Given that there’s just a smidge of blackness in the parks, I’d say it wouldn’t be helpful to have that smidge look like “savage” Africans wielding spears.

Representation of violence in general is not a problem. However, when a group is stereotyped as being violent, aka African Americans, and one of the two examples of representation in the parks of African Americans shows them as being violent, then we need to reconsider some things.

Given that the Natives are general Africans, I doubt there’s any significant education to be had anyway. If they were from a specific tribe, that would be different.

I totally see your points and agree with all of them.

Jungle Cruise having the only black people in the parks in 2021 is insane.

I think that's true, theres no specific tribe assigned to them. I think it'd be fun to have a tribe scene (maybe with light skinned tribes people (albinos)?

 

[_caleb]

To be fair, I’m half Italian half Jordanian so I’m still not quite sure that makes me White/ European but I won’t go down that rabbit hole.

Sorry I assumed things about you I don't know.

Is there really such diverse representation though? I’f you look at the West side of the park what do you have? Indy and Drunk White-ish Pirates?

There might not be so many depictions of different people, but perspectives? Adventureland, Frontierland, NOS, all seem (to me, anyway) to be told from perspectives that find those places/settings "exotic" or "adventurous."

 

[_caleb]

I totally see your points and agree with all of them.

Jungle Cruise having the only black people in the parks in 2021 is insane.

I think that's true, theres no specific tribe assigned to them. I think it'd be fun to have a tribe scene (maybe with light skinned tribes people (albinos)?

It's not just about the shade of their skin. Tribal people ≠ savages. Surely you see the difference?

 

[George Lucas on a Bench]

It will just be more animal gags and outrageous attractive female action stars in the most unlikely of circumstances.

 

[_caleb]

What is it with people thinking that any mention of race is somehow racist?