Jungle Cruise Re-Imagining

Animaniac93-98

Well-Known Member
Attractions like Indiana Jones Adventure and Revenge of the Mummy are full of exaggerated or made up religious tropes, nativism and exotic otherness. Who knows if one day they'll be removed or altered too for being considered in poor taste.

It seems easier to pick on Walt-era content because it's old and it's always easier to criticize the nostalgia of some other generation.
 

el_super

Well-Known Member
Attractions like Indiana Jones Adventure and Revenge of the Mummy are full of exaggerated or made up religious tropes, nativism and exotic otherness. Who knows if one day they'll be removed or altered too for being considered in poor taste.

Maybe. Why not?


It seems easier to pick on Walt-era content

No one is "picking" on anything and you shouldn't try to devolve the discussion with such simplistic terms. The natives are an egregious example of portraying people of color as an aggressive stereotype. That it came from Walt's people or Walt's time is mostly irrelevant to whether it should be removed.
 

Touchdown

Well-Known Member
Attractions like Indiana Jones Adventure and Revenge of the Mummy are full of exaggerated or made up religious tropes, nativism and exotic otherness. Who knows if one day they'll be removed or altered too for being considered in poor taste.

It seems easier to pick on Walt-era content because it's old and it's always easier to criticize the nostalgia of some other generation.

The big difference in those rides is either it’s not geographically defined and clearly fictional (Indy) or caricaturizes a “break away cult” of a dead religion/culture which still makes it fictional.

Aboard the Jungle Cruise we are told were in Africa (The Congo specifically) and it’s supposed to be a representation of a real culture.
 

_caleb

Well-Known Member
Attractions like Indiana Jones Adventure and Revenge of the Mummy are full of exaggerated or made up religious tropes, nativism and exotic otherness. Who knows if one day they'll be removed or altered too for being considered in poor taste.

It seems easier to pick on Walt-era content because it's old and it's always easier to criticize the nostalgia of some other generation.
[SLIGHTLY OFF TOPIC: This is why I love the World Showcase pavilions at Epcot so much. In my opinion, Disney successfully depicted cultures that are deeply religious while avoiding the tropes related to those things.]

I was thinking the opposite about Walt-era content. Seems like that’s “sacred” and they’re reluctant to touch it (changing a couple scenes in Jungle Cruise vs. what they’re planning for Splash). I think this is also why they’re not just removing or editing classic films from D+, but doing other things like raising the rating, adding disclaimers and context, rebooting, etc.
 

Animaniac93-98

Well-Known Member
Well.. the D+ changes lately made me rethink those sacred cow laws. I think they eventually will start trying to wall up and treat those films as problematic.

Especially once they have their own line of Indy films and they no longer see the value in promoting the older stuff like with Star Wars.
 

flynnibus

Premium Member
Right. But the writers didn’t just put ANY elements of danger or exotic into the Jungle Cruise. They could have put in magic, attacking animals, fire, falling trees, crazed explorers—any number of things that would have created the sense of danger and exotic without reducing historically marginalize people to playing that part.

But this isn't a novel - They have to convey ideas in seconds - and generally with little to no supporting material. This is why attractions lean so heavily on existing material. They simply don't have the platform to setup complex, new narratives. (and why now disney leverages the pre-show so much now to setup things.. to set the stage for the plot to come and gap fill for those who may not know the material).

The Imagineers were definitely playing to the stereotype that already existed in the audience’s minds (as you mention)—as a more economical approach to storytelling. But that stereotype was built in our collective minds over years and years of propaganda. Those stories (violent, primitive, ignorant, strange, funny) provided the rationale for conquering, colonizing, and even enslaving African people.

Let's be honest... making the enemy/target into something evil/dumb/subhuman/lesser is as old as time itself. It's not going away. Anytime there is a difference in objectives or ideals, ultimately someone will try to paint the opposition in some sort of negative light to help sway people's opinions. I'm not saying it's great - but it's not going away, and IMO I don't think in the case of these jungle natives it is standout.

I mean.. the word "barbarian" is still common and it's entire etymology is this dehumanizing strategy.

It's a tactic that people trying to sway others are always going to use. Point out their differences, mock them, make them seem lesser, make them seem incapable of changing, blur who the instigator is, etc etc.

And for well established portrayals... they will always carry lots of immediate understandings. I mean... put someone in a german WWII SS uniform and bam... instant persona conveyed to the audience. Put someone in chaps, a big hat, and boots.. and boom.. lots of character traits pop into the viewers mind.

Familiarity is a huge tool - I wouldn't call it 'economical' as much as prototypical.

I agree that most Disney guests are not likely to look at the scene and think that those are meant to be an accurate depiction of how all real tribal people look/act. But the use of the stereotype subtly reinforces the same worldview it was designed to promote.

I think the crux is... some people can accept the caricatures as fake, hyperbolic, or just fiction... and others feel the need to undo/fix/correct the false portrayals because they feel their continued existence harms people now.

I'm polish... I've never felt harmed by pollock jokes nor the portrayals of what the Nazis painted the Poles as. Because I believe the solution to ignorance is knowledge... not deletion.
 

Animaniac93-98

Well-Known Member
Side note; when you watch an older movie, it's age is often obvious. You may see it's not in widescreen or in colour. It may have mono sound and people talk and dress in a way that nobody has in many years. Even if it's scanned and restored with modern technology.

When you go to WDW or DLR you're less aware of the parks age. You're surrounded by people in modern clothes holding smartphones. You experience everything in real time. The rides themselves are maintained and have their equipment updated so as to not look like they've been sitting there for decades [Peter Pan's Flight at WDW is one thing that kind of does look 50 years old, but that's another topic]. Despite Disney wanting their rides to be seen as "classics" like the animated films, they don't want you to think of them as old, so there's a disconnect when trying to understand the ride you're on was designed and built in the 1960s. People have a vague idea that Disneyland has been around for a while, but the history of specific attractions are totally abstract and never really considered. That makes it easier for Disney to just change them vs trying to explain them.
 

DCLcruiser

Well-Known Member
Switching the “danger” from including indigenous people to just wild animals is probably the way to go. Trader Sam can be updated to an old computer offering the Amazon website. Lol.
 

_caleb

Well-Known Member
But this isn't a novel - They have to convey ideas in seconds - and generally with little to no supporting material. This is why attractions lean so heavily on existing material. They simply don't have the platform to setup complex, new narratives. (and why now disney leverages the pre-show so much now to setup things.. to set the stage for the plot to come and gap fill for those who may not know the material).
This is why themed environments are so difficult. In my opinion, what makes Disney awesome is that they are (or were) good enough to tell a great story at a glance without having to rely on stereotypes, (which just seems lazy to me).
Let's be honest... making the enemy/target into something evil/dumb/subhuman/lesser is as old as time itself. It's not going away. Anytime there is a difference in objectives or ideals, ultimately someone will try to paint the opposition in some sort of negative light to help sway people's opinions. I'm not saying it's great - but it's not going away, and IMO I don't think in the case of these jungle natives it is standout.
Stories created by people with bad motives will always be stained with those motives. And why do we need those stories? There are so many more we could create!
I mean.. the word "barbarian" is still common and it's entire etymology is this dehumanizing strategy.
Right. We should not use that word to refer to people today.
It's a tactic that people trying to sway others are always going to use. Point out their differences, mock them, make them seem lesser, make them seem incapable of changing, blur who the instigator is, etc etc.
Right. Manipulative propaganda. Not good.
And for well established portrayals... they will always carry lots of immediate understandings. I mean... put someone in a german WWII SS uniform and bam... instant persona conveyed to the audience. Put someone in chaps, a big hat, and boots.. and boom.. lots of character traits pop into the viewers mind.

Familiarity is a huge tool - I wouldn't call it 'economical' as much as prototypical.
I used “economical” because it’s cheap and easy. Like you said, WW2 uniforms will forever bring to mind Facism/Nazis. Star Wars heavily relies on this to shape the audience’s understanding of the Empire/First Order.
I think the crux is... some people can accept the caricatures as fake, hyperbolic, or just fiction... and others feel the need to undo/fix/correct the false portrayals because they feel their continued existence harms people now.
Right. And we might also want to take a look at the subtle effects of how we respond to the continued existence of those portrayals. We could honor them, laugh at them, be saddened by them, be entertained by them. How we relate to them says a lot about us today.
I'm polish... I've never felt harmed by pollock jokes nor the portrayals of what the Nazis painted the Poles as. Because I believe the solution to ignorance is knowledge... not deletion.
Those jokes don’t bother you because you know the truth. But lots of people don’t know the truth and only know the jokes.

Polish people in the 1940s surely felt harmed by those jokes and portrayals. Those things inspired people to do horrible things to other human beings. Nobody is suggesting we “delete” those jokes or depictions, just that we stop glorifying them and allowing ourselves to be entertained by them.
 

BuzzedPotatoHead89

Well-Known Member
S.E.A needs to disappear. ASAP. Not only does the backstory celebrate the same imperialism that is so problematic on the Jungle Cruise, but as a tribute to the real-life (almost exclusively white) Imagineers that spearheaded these projects, it highlights the real-life hiring deficiencies of the Walt Disney Company. The fact that it is so relatively modern as well, makes it more egregious a slight than anything on the Jungle Cruise itself.

I barely know anything about S.E.A. but it seems the team working on this refresh has quite a fondness for it. And I’d argue in and of itself the concept of a shared universe is not on its face a bad idea.

Since as I understand it S.E.A. is a relatively recent phenomenon can’t the story just evolve? I mean the idea of an interconnected storyline connecting the attractions sounds exciting. I think you hit the nail on the head with the point on the head about TWDC hiring but that seems like a “chicken and the egg” issue (no pun intended).

Until they address the hiring diversity (which they are slowly doing), what’s to stop them from evolving the storyline of S.E.A. the same way the concepts of the original “real life” themes. For example what constitutes Frontierland/ROA, Adventure/exploration (Jungle Cruise), and Futurism/Tomorrowland have evolved under a theme over time to modern sensibilities (though arguably the latter has been a bust due to IP incursion).

Maybe I’m misreading it, but S.E.A. Is simply the encapsulation of those ideas in a loosely shared universe with shared characters that can be expanded, retconned, and explored.
 

DCLcruiser

Well-Known Member
I barely know anything about S.E.A. but it seems the team working on this refresh has quite a fondness for it. And I’d argue in and of itself the concept of a shared universe is not on its face a bad idea.

Since as I understand it S.E.A. is a relatively recent phenomenon can’t the story just evolve? I mean the idea of an interconnected storyline connecting the attractions sounds exciting. I think you hit the nail on the head with the point on the head about TWDC hiring but that seems like a “chicken and the egg” issue (no pun intended).

Until they address the hiring diversity (which they are slowly doing), what’s to stop them from evolving the storyline of S.E.A. the same way the concepts of the original “real life” themes. For example what constitutes Frontierland/ROA, Adventure/exploration (Jungle Cruise), and Futurism/Tomorrowland have evolved under a theme over time to modern sensibilities (though arguably the latter has been a bust due to IP incursion).

Maybe I’m misreading it, but S.E.A. Is simply the encapsulation of those ideas in a loosely shared universe with shared characters that can be expanded, retconned, and explored.
Agreed.
Here is great info since I was not aware of how extensive it is. Even Thunder Mountain!?

 

MisterPenguin

President of Animal Kingdom
Premium Member
S.E.A. be White.

But, at least there's one woman, who has her own attraction: Mary Oceaneer.

And one of the SEA members got his comeuppance for his hubris and plundering of foreign countries: Hightower.

In The Skippers' Canteen, there are names of SEA members that seem to be African, Native Hawaiian, and Japanese.

If the new movie has any SEA connection, then with The Rock joining, it becomes less White.
 

1HAPPYGHOSTHOST

Well-Known Member
The big difference in those rides is either it’s not geographically defined and clearly fictional (Indy) or caricaturizes a “break away cult” of a dead religion/culture which still makes it fictional.

Aboard the Jungle Cruise we are told were in Africa (The Congo specifically) and it’s supposed to be a representation of a real culture.
How many times did you visit the congo in the 1920's/30's? Sounds like you summered there since you know the culture back then so well.
 

1HAPPYGHOSTHOST

Well-Known Member
It wasn’t my area of study but I’m a history major, tribes did not act like that in the 20s and 30s, that’s pure pulp fiction nonsense and you know it.
Then someone needs to go tell the natives on North Sentinel Island in this modern day whom are still wearing loincloth and killing visitors with spears, some very recently, and being soo territorial that it is not how natives are supposed to act and not culturally accurate. Shame on them for being a stereotype in 2021. They should know they need to be more civilized.
 

Touchdown

Well-Known Member
Then someone needs to go tell the natives on North Sentinel Island in this modern day whom are still wearing loincloth and killing visitors with spears, some very recently, and being soo territorial that it is not how natives are supposed to act and not culturally accurate. Shame on them for being a stereotype in 2021.
I was not aware an island in the Indian Ocean between India and SE Asia was apart of the Congo river basin in Africa. Also I didn’t know they beat ceremonial drums and danced on one bank while their compatriots attacked on the other...
 

el_super

Well-Known Member
Maybe I’m misreading it, but S.E.A. Is simply the encapsulation of those ideas in a loosely shared universe with shared characters that can be expanded, retconned, and explored.

The biggest issue I have with SEA is the imperialism/colonialism. Maybe that is the fault of the current iteration of SEA being mostly white Europeans, but I'm not entirely sold on the idea that changing their skin color and convoluting their backstories will excuse their transgressions. It's still, at it's core, a group of people who essentially plundered other cultures for their artifacts, and then rewrote the stories of those cultures under their own perceptions. It's the antithesis of the idea of empowering cultures to tell their own stories, by again emphasizing the idea that the white explorer is more deserving of having their story told than the people who live there. The very concept that an area where a culture has lived for thousands of years has to be "explored," is just ... not a great look.

Can it be fixed? I don't know. I have a strong feeling that the new Jungle Cruise is going to put more emphasis on man versus nature and more likely the folly of man for trying to exert dominance over the Jungle. Maybe in that regard SEA gets incorporated as an antagonist, or maybe like a comic foil. A cautionary tale on the dangers of hubris. Not sure if that will work, and whether the current living members would care for it.
 

Marden

Active Member
My point still stands. You got a black native tribe in a jungle type environment acting very much like the natives on jungle cruise do but in real life modern day. You don't have a good counter argument now that I leveled yours.
The level of ignorance here is astounding: who the Andamanese/Sentinelese are; the genetic heritage of the people; the history of outside interactions with them; why they're an awful example to hold up as a supposed real-world example of Jungle Cruise representations.

Fortunately, nobody is under any obligation to correct you. It's more fun to let people make fools of themselves online, anyway.
 

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