Journey of Water featuring Moana coming to Epcot

atighe42

Well-Known Member
I’m torn on the Journey of Water. I suppose I need to wait and see A) how it is in person & B) how it fits in thematically with what World Nature will be. If they are going for a more mature yet mystical approach leaning into the sense of discovery as opposed to innovation, then I could see it fitting. It’s still too early to tell. Same with the whole overhaul, I need more substantive details.
 

marni1971

WDW History nut
Premium Member
I would like to see that one left (between land and sea) used for an actual attraction or pavilion, like it was intended...but cant help but think they would forfeit it as a new entrance/exit link to a new connected hotel that has been talked about so much over the years.
That plot was actually proposed to be the landing for the link bridge had they built the hotel in the middle of Futureworld.
 

Josh Hendy

Well-Known Member
It did. But since it’s a clone it had to sit back behind the pads berm. No one would want to see a metal box on the promenade.

At least not without taking a few steps back.
Am I correct in re-phrasing your comment thus?

"Because it's a copy-paste of attraction blueprints from a different park, (a) it must be pushed outside the berm, (b) a rather long, awkward approach path is necessary, with (c) substandard sightlines."

I'm going to call this "Tron Syndrome". Although truth be told, in MK Haunted Mansion, Space Mountain and Pirates all suffer from the syndrome somewhat with awkward kluges necessitated by the WDWRR. As does Soarin' at Epcot.
 

yensidtlaw1969

Well-Known Member
In the Parks
No
I'm fully aware of the opening day ceremony, only because I read about it.

Any guest that didn't read a backstory for that fountain would have no idea by looking at it that it was a "Fountain of Nations."

They could have called it "Fountain of Industry" or "Fountain of Knowledge" and it would be the same: just a fountain.

Did the fountain's shows cycle through the traditional music of the nations of the world with the colored lights showing the colors of the nations?

A one day ceremony doesn't *theme* a thing. The thing has to have the theme incorporated into it.
You could say that about almost anything in Future World - "Theming" wasn't expressed In the traditional way there. You could get that in World Showcase if you wanted. Were the pyramids of the Imagination Pavilion "themed" to Imagination? Yes, but not by the traditional definition. How many guests perceived just from their visage, without instruction, that the pavilion was dedicated to Imagination? And yet the theme was baked into their DNA.

Spaceship Earth looks more like a Golfball than any Spaceship I've ever seen - does that mean the "theming" of the structure is lacking?

If Future World made less sense as a result of guests not knowing that this was a Fountain of Nations then you could call it bad design. But it was designed with its purpose in mind and gave itself over to it, a keystone in the plaza of Future World but not in the theme of it; whether guests "got" it just by looking at it or not didn't detract from its success as a fountain or an element of the plaza. You merely gained more if you knew the truth of it. And its not like its name was actively concealed from guests - people knew it was The Fountain of Nations.

EPCOT Center was innovative in the worlds of design, Theme Park Design not the least of them. The truth of the matter is that the Fountain symbolized the collective of Nations beyond just its name and even beyond it's "theming" or lacktherof. EPCOT Center and its design engaged with reality in a different way than a Magic Kingdom. We know they didn't just build a fountain and decide for fun to call it The Fountain of Nations. Is JFK's Eternal Flame the same as the bonfire I lit in my backyard last week?

The answer is no - the dedication is meaningful, and the performance of that dedication is what initiates it into perpetuity. Had they called the same fountain "The Fountain of Knowledge" and didn't have any dedication of it or for it that spoke to that, then it truly would have been less than the same fountain, because it wouldn't have been christened with intention. One where the waters of the world flowed through it together and symbolically continued to flow.

Until they tore it down.
 
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montyz81

Well-Known Member
It did. But since it’s a clone it had to sit back behind the pads berm. No one would want to see a metal box on the promenade.

At least not without taking a few steps back.
Look NorthEast. I can see a big metal box from the promenade. For that matter, you can see one if you look northwest too.
(I kid. I know you meant actually on the promenade)
 

MisterPenguin

Rumormonger
Premium Member
If Future World made less sense as a result of guests not knowing that this was a Fountain of Nations then you could call it bad design.
Thank-you. I will. Because that's pretty much the definition of bad design, in that there is nothing in the design suggesting the theming you want it to convey.

And if other buildings are like that, so be it. Their faults don't excuse the FoN's fault.

Though, SSE is a sphere, representing Earth. The Sea has wavy architecture. The other buildings' shapes were originally meant to convey their theme, as Martin will tell you.

And "The Fountain of Nations" has none of that that I can discern.
 

DreamfinderGuy

Well-Known Member
I’d even go as far as to say that from a symbolic standpoint the removal of the Fountain of Nations represents something far stronger than any press release hyping up a new splash pad could ever say. I know it’s sacrilege in these parts to compare anything to the removal of Horizons, especially being that it was on a much grander scale than a literal fountain, but both of their removals represent missteps and a complete disregard to what the park stood for. However I guess the entire intent is to change what the park stands for, so that pretty much justifies it’s removal.
 

DreamfinderGuy

Well-Known Member
That plot was actually proposed to be the landing for the link bridge had they built the hotel in the middle of Futureworld.
Any chance you'll ever get your markers out for another intentionally vague sketch of this project? I'm very curious to see how they would've worked that.
 

RobWDW1971

Well-Known Member
I’d even go as far as to say that from a symbolic standpoint the removal of the Fountain of Nations represents something far stronger than any press release hyping up a new splash pad could ever say. I know it’s sacrilege in these parts to compare anything to the removal of Horizons, especially being that it was on a much grander scale than a literal fountain, but both of their removals represent missteps and a complete disregard to what the park stood for. However I guess the entire intent is to change what the park stands for, so that pretty much justifies it’s removal.
I think the fact the Fountain of Nations is being replaced for a sky bar pretty much says it all about how they feel about the original concept of Epcot.
 
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yensidtlaw1969

Well-Known Member
In the Parks
No
Thank-you. I will. Because that's pretty much the definition of bad design, in that there is nothing in the design suggesting the theming you want it to convey.

And if other buildings are like that, so be it. Their faults don't excuse the FoN's fault.

Though, SSE is a sphere, representing Earth. The Sea has wavy architecture. The other buildings' shapes were originally meant to convey their theme, as Martin will tell you.

And "The Fountain of Nations" has none of that that I can discern.
“As Martin will tell me”? Bruh, I said it in my post! Don‘t quote my point back to me and pretend to be teaching me something.

Future World DIDN’T make less sense if you didn’t know about the Fountain of Nations dedication ceremony. The Fountain wasn’t holding up a conceptual cornerstone of the land, but it did reinforce the concept if you knew about the fountain. That is not bad design, that’s called placemaking - it’s not like you missed the point of the whole place if you missed the point of the fountain, but the point of the fountain DID speak to the point of the place anyway.

Categorically, that’s pretty squarely GOOD design, especially in a theme park environment where people are free to roam and direct their attention as they please. Everything works in support of the concept without over-reliance on any one element that guests could be free to miss.

Not did EPCOT Center, and especially Future World, aspired to not only a different, less literal, higher conceptual level of thematic design than the standard you‘re holding it to, but it held up to it anyway. The remaining elements in Future World still do. Sorry if the subtlety of actually building a reality rather than creating an illusory one doesn’t fully do it for you.
 
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HauntedPirate

Sheltered-at-home Park nostalgist
Premium Member
The FoN dedication ceremony was attended by Lillian Disney, and IIRC she helped dedicate it somehow. It was a direct tie back to Walt, if you will, possibly the last one (I don't count his windows at MK). Tearing it out basically took out whatever was left of EPCOT Center's soul.

I remember being at MK in mid-to-late December 1997 with my then-future wife, and we wondered why the flags were at half-mast. They were lowered because Lilly had died the day before we went down.
 
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