Journey of Water featuring Moana coming to Epcot

[UNCgolf]

I did this exercise fairly recently, and I think the 10-15 range is where EPCOT's top attractions as well as M&MRR slot in. The greater point here is there DHS' top 3 is significantly better than EPCOT's. If EPCOT is to compete on attraction lineup it needs the following:

- Guardians needs to be a top 5 ride in WDW
- SSE needs a refurb that improves upon the current ride
- The Imagination overhaul needs to be green lit as soon as possible and it needs to be better than M&MRR
- Less critical, but a Seas update was definitely on the books and that needs to be an improvement over what was there as well.

Bob Chapek said that EPCOT needs things to do for families. That's not really true at all. It has more to do for families than any other park other than MK, the problem is the attractions themselves are weaker. You can hop to EPCOT and crank out 4-5 Not Future World attractions in a few hours, but none of them are going to resonate with kids anywhere near as much as Runaway Railway does.

The Seas is one of those things that's easy to overlook but is a significantly diminished experience from what it was at its peak. There used to be more going on in that pavilion than there is now, and I believe there were more animals in the tanks too (plus some tanks were removed when they installed Turtle Talk, although I assume that's still popular with kids). The Nemo ride is bad and no one cares about riding it; I think it's on roughly the same level as Imagination in terms of wait times. I know the one time I've been on it the posted wait was something like 15-20 minutes but it was a literal walk-on. I just strolled all the way through the queue and got on a ride vehicle with no wait.

It could definitely use some love.

 

[TikibirdLand]

The Seas is one of those things that's easy to overlook but is a significantly diminished experience from what it was at its peak. There used to be more going on in that pavilion than there is now, and I believe there were more animals in the tanks too (plus some tanks were removed when they installed Turtle Talk, although I assume that's still popular with kids). The Nemo ride is bad and no one cares about riding it; I think it's on roughly the same level as Imagination in terms of wait times. I know the one time I've been on it the posted wait was something like 15-20 minutes but it was a literal walk-on. I just strolled all the way through the queue and got on a ride vehicle with no wait.

It could definitely use some love.

My favorite part of the pavillion is the birds out front saying, "Mine Mine Mine". I'd always tease my DW that they were talking to her. They'd start saying it whenever we'd walk by. We wouldn't walk near them due to that!

 

[doctornick]

I did this exercise fairly recently, and I think the 10-15 range is where EPCOT's top attractions as well as M&MRR slot in. The greater point here is there DHS' top 3 is significantly better than EPCOT's. If EPCOT is to compete on attraction lineup it needs the following:

- Guardians needs to be a top 5 ride in WDW
- SSE needs a refurb that improves upon the current ride
- The Imagination overhaul needs to be green lit as soon as possible and it needs to be better than M&MRR
- Less critical, but a Seas update was definitely on the books and that needs to be an improvement over what was there as well.

Bob Chapek said that EPCOT needs things to do for families. That's not really true at all. It has more to do for families than any other park other than MK, the problem is the attractions themselves are weaker. You can hop to EPCOT and crank out 4-5 Not Future World attractions in a few hours, but none of them are going to resonate with kids anywhere near as much as Runaway Railway does.

While I don't disagree with anything you mentioned, I think Epcot needs another quality ride addition to World Showcase more than it needs to refurb one of the existing stuff in FW. Especially in sparse attraction area from China to Morocco (that's a massive part of the area with only the China video and American Adventure as significant attractions and no rides). Putting a ride in Germany or Italy would should be a priority IMHO (or a new pavilion in that stretch, as long as it has a ride).

I also think adding a ride to the Play pavilion, particularly a non thrill family one, would be both appropriate and key. That side of FW has rides but all have some degree of height requirement and may not be tolerable for all. There's certainly space using the old Body Wars footprint (putting in a show in the Cranium Command theater wouldn't hurt either).

The park would benefit more from additions that it would from refurbing existing stuff and taking them out of commission. If you can add rides/attractions like I suggested, then you turn your attention to actually making Imagination something actually good. IMHO

 

[UNCgolf]

The park would benefit more from additions that it would from refurbing existing stuff and taking them out of commission. If you can add rides/attractions like I suggested, then you turn your attention to actually making Imagination something actually good. IMHO

I don't know if that's true solely because some of the existing rides are so underutilized. It's not a situation where it's a mediocre ride but still providing capacity -- people simply don't ride Imagination (or Nemo, in my experience). Even on the busiest days of the year it was getting 15-20 minute waits, which is generally Disney code for walk-on. It's almost like it doesn't even exist.

 

[doctornick]

The Seas is one of those things that's easy to overlook but is a significantly diminished experience from what it was at its peak. There used to be more going on in that pavilion than there is now, and I believe there were more animals in the tanks too (plus some tanks were removed when they installed Turtle Talk, although I assume that's still popular with kids). The Nemo ride is bad and no one cares about riding it; I think it's on roughly the same level as Imagination in terms of wait times. I know the one time I've been on it the posted wait was something like 15-20 minutes but it was a literal walk-on. I just strolled all the way through the queue and got on a ride vehicle with no wait.

It could definitely use some love.

Was Seabase Alpha really all that different in terms of offerings? I know the uniform concept for the pavilion is far weaker, but I think once you are actually in the Seabase, it's a similar kind of experience. Maybe @marni1971 or someone can talk about what has maybe been taken away over the years. Whenever we are there we find plenty to do for a while and explore and usually only leave because we are headed to some other plans.

Anyway, I disagree about the ride. Nemo is a perfectly fine ride, nothing special but nothing like Imagination where you kinda have a "what did I just see?" reaction to people who haven't ridden it. When all the effects are working it's charming enough and the projections of the characters into the tanks with "real" fish is pretty cool. It also has high capacity so that helps to keeps waits down. I think it is more in the category of something that it could be better but isn't a pressing need to address.

IMHO the biggest issue with the Seas is that it is out of the way and a hassle to get to. This is make even worse by the active construction and walls. I'm hopefully that - hey, on topic! - the JoW will help to streamline the area and offer a more engaging and visible pathway to the Seas and draw more people that direction.

 

[UNCgolf]

Was Seabase Alpha really all that different in terms of offerings? I know the uniform concept for the pavilion is far weaker, but I think once you are actually in the Seabase, it's a similar kind of experience. Maybe @marni1971 or someone can talk about what has maybe been taken away over the years. Whenever we are there we find plenty to do for a while and explore and usually only leave because we are headed to some other plans.

Anyway, I disagree about the ride. Nemo is a perfectly fine ride, nothing special but nothing like Imagination where you kinda have a "what did I just see?" reaction to people who haven't ridden it. When all the effects are working it's charming enough and the projections of the characters into the tanks with "real" fish is pretty cool. It also has high capacity so that helps to keeps waits down. I think it is more in the category of something that it could be better but isn't a pressing need to address.

IMHO the biggest issue with the Seas is that it is out of the way and a hassle to get to. This is make even worse by the active construction and walls. I'm hopefully that - hey, on topic! - the JoW will help to streamline the area and offer a more engaging and visible pathway to the Seas and draw more people that direction.

I've only been on Nemo once, with no wait, and I can't imagine ever riding it again. It was that bad to me (as in one of the very worst rides at WDW), although I'll admit that part of the issue is likely comparing it with what used to be there -- the SeaCabs, as part of the overall SeaBase Alpha experience (with the hydrolaters, undersea base, etc.), were so much better than the Nemo ride that it's not even worth discussing. Projecting Nemo etc. into the tank with real fish was neat, though.

I think part of it is Turtle Talk -- I'm pretty sure they removed a lot when they installed it. As long as it's still popular with kids then that's not really a loss for the park overall, but it is a loss for older kids and adults who don't care about Turtle Talk.

I also remember a big wave tank that showed how waves form. I'm not sure when it was removed but it's definitely not there now.

I'd also like to hear from @marni1971 about what was once there and is now gone, though, because I feel like there were several other things that are now gone but I could just be misremembering. I'm almost 100% sure the amount of marine life has declined significantly, though -- last time I was there the main tank looked almost barren.

 

[Incomudro]

Was Seabase Alpha really all that different in terms of offerings? I know the uniform concept for the pavilion is far weaker, but I think once you are actually in the Seabase, it's a similar kind of experience. Maybe @marni1971 or someone can talk about what has maybe been taken away over the years. Whenever we are there we find plenty to do for a while and explore and usually only leave because we are headed to some other plans.

Anyway, I disagree about the ride. Nemo is a perfectly fine ride, nothing special but nothing like Imagination where you kinda have a "what did I just see?" reaction to people who haven't ridden it. When all the effects are working it's charming enough and the projections of the characters into the tanks with "real" fish is pretty cool. It also has high capacity so that helps to keeps waits down. I think it is more in the category of something that it could be better but isn't a pressing need to address.

IMHO the biggest issue with the Seas is that it is out of the way and a hassle to get to. This is make even worse by the active construction and walls. I'm hopefully that - hey, on topic! - the JoW will help to streamline the area and offer a more engaging and visible pathway to the Seas and draw more people that direction.

I love Nemo.
Rode it year after year, seated next to mt son Jack.
It was a real father and son thing.

 

[BrianLo]

I know this is off topic, but I was pleasantly surprised by Seabase Alpha in December. For some reason I had very poor memories of it from 2017/2012. I must have only looked in the empty dolphin tank or something, because I was kind of shocked how interesting and full the main tank was.

I literally had no idea or memory they even had dolphins until they swam by while I was on Nemo.

An extra ride coming off of it into the expansion space could really elevate the pavilion.

 

[doctornick]

I've only been on Nemo once, with no wait, and I can't imagine ever riding it again. It was that bad to me (as in one of the very worst rides at WDW), although I'll admit that part of the issue is likely comparing it with what used to be there -- the SeaCabs, as part of the overall SeaBase Alpha experience (with the hydrolaters, undersea base, etc.), were so much better than the Nemo ride that it's not even worth discussing. Projecting Nemo etc. into the tank with real fish was neat, though.

See, I think the Nemo ride is a clear improvement over the original Seacabs ride and it not particularly close. That ride was IMHO easily the worst of classic Epcot. You basically ride alone tanks that... you're going to be able to see anyway. Just pointless.

Now, the entire Seabase Alpha experience (especially the Hydrolaters naturally) was excellent and well done, but I'd consider the ride to be a clear weakest link. In fact, I think it would have been just as valuable to have that be a walking portion instead.

I enjoy the Nemo ride well enough and am glad that it never has much wait (it's always nice to have options that aren't a massive commitment). It's not a "must ride" for us, but usually try to head there at least once each trip.

 

[Animaniac93-98]

One of the biggest problems with Nemo as is, is how loose and pointless the connection the film has with the actual pavilion.

Sea Base was the fantasy of an underwater research facility. That's why you saw fish, divers and marine biologists. It's why you had to take this prolonged journey to get there. It gave a framework for the literal structure and educational activities.

All they did in 2006 was tack on a Nemo ride and some minor exhibits to the existing show space. Nemo is there because Nemo is a fish. That's it. There's no real theme. Prior to Finding Dory, the world Nemo experienced had nothing to do with aquariums or marine research.

It needs to go back to being a futuristic research base. The appeal has always been seeing the fish. That's why they don't need Nemo (or Ariel, or someone else) to sell tables at the restaurant. Aquariums are inherently interesting. It's why so many profitable ones exist throughout the country. What makes the "Disney" one special, should be in its presentation.

And you can still keep Turtle Talk, just don't make the whole thing about one Pixar movie.

 

[Animaniac93-98]

Turning the ride into the DisneySea 20,000 Leagues attraction and giving the whole pavilion a Captain Nemo steampunk makeover might be a more timeless fantasy research base than what they envisioned in the 1980s, but the odds of that ever happening are nonexistent.

 

[UNCgolf]

See, I think the Nemo ride is a clear improvement over the original Seacabs ride and it not particularly close. That ride was IMHO easily the worst of classic Epcot. You basically ride alone tanks that... you're going to be able to see anyway. Just pointless.

Now, the entire Seabase Alpha experience (especially the Hydrolaters naturally) was excellent and well done, but I'd consider the ride to be a clear weakest link. In fact, I think it would have been just as valuable to have that be a walking portion instead.

I enjoy the Nemo ride well enough and am glad that it never has much wait (it's always nice to have options that aren't a massive commitment). It's not a "must ride" for us, but usually try to head there at least once each trip.

If the SeaCabs were a ride by themselves, then I'd agree there wasn't much to it, but they were an integral part of the whole experience and I can't really separate them from it. As a kid, you weren't seeing into a tank -- you were actually on the ocean floor being transported through a tunnel. While it could have been walking instead, it wouldn't have sold the concept as well IMO. I also think there was a benefit to getting to see the tank from another side, because it gave you different views.

While I obviously think the Finding Nemo ride is a pretty poor attraction on its own, I think it's made worse by having no real connection to its location. It would probably work better as a standalone attraction elsewhere, although if it was a standalone attraction they would have needed to make something more impressive than what they shoehorned in to an aquarium viewing tunnel.

 

[UNCgolf]

And you can still keep Turtle Talk, just don't make the whole thing about one Pixar movie.

I'd prefer they dump Turtle Talk and put actual exhibits back in that space (as I said above, they've lost a lot from the original incarnation), but I understand wanting to keep it around if it's still popular for kids.

 

[Animaniac93-98]

It would probably work better as a standalone attraction elsewhere, although if it was a standalone attraction they would have needed to make something more impressive than what they shoehorned in to an aquarium viewing tunnel.

It's cousin in California the Finding Nemo Submarine Voyage, while longer, isn't that much more interesting.

It's main novelty is the simple fact that Walt Disney's Submarine Voyage still operates in any form at all, and the views of the submarines circling the lagoon from various Tomorrowland vantage points.

 

[J4546]

im in the minority but when/if they redo the northeast area of DL and get ride of Nemo Subs and Autopia....I will be happy

 

[Centauri Space Station]

I've only been on Nemo once, with no wait, and I can't imagine ever riding it again. It was that bad to me (as in one of the very worst rides at WDW), although I'll admit that part of the issue is likely comparing it with what used to be there -- the SeaCabs, as part of the overall SeaBase Alpha experience (with the hydrolaters, undersea base, etc.), were so much better than the Nemo ride that it's not even worth discussing. Projecting Nemo etc. into the tank with real fish was neat, though.

I think part of it is Turtle Talk -- I'm pretty sure they removed a lot when they installed it. As long as it's still popular with kids then that's not really a loss for the park overall, but it is a loss for older kids and adults who don't care about Turtle Talk.

I also remember a big wave tank that showed how waves form. I'm not sure when it was removed but it's definitely not there now.

I'd also like to hear from @marni1971 about what was once there and is now gone, though, because I feel like there were several other things that are now gone but I could just be misremembering. I'm almost 100% sure the amount of marine life has declined significantly, though -- last time I was there the main tank looked almost barren.

I ride it Atleast once a trip and it always has a line. It’s an omnimover though, so its faster to load. I think the queue works to transport you under the ocean starting at a beach pier, and ending under the waves with a boat above, better than the hydrolators. The Nemo ride is a better experience as a whole than sea cabs or hydrolators to me. The film never interested me personally either. The ride is a lot longer and has actual effects and sets like the angler fish, and jellyfish. The stellevator at Space 220 is a spiritual successor to the Hydrolators.
I always see loads of marine life in the tanks, especially the main observation level.

 

[MisterPenguin]

Imagine if the Nemo ride was Mr. Ray with Nemo and the other 'kid fish' (and Dory as a field trip chaperone) that would accompany your omnimover. And Mr. Ray explaining to the kid fish the wonders of the ocean with Dory asking comic relief questions.

Drop the very very very bad attempt at a book report ride. And have the ride be truly edutainment.

 

[Bocabear]

That is exactly how it should have been done...Then it would be more charming and more in line with classic EPCOT...
The idea of making the whole pavilion a steampunk nod to 20000 leagues is interesting...I mean if we are discarding the whole Future World Aesthetic, why not? Moana's Journey of Water would make a beautiful Volcania walk through introduction to the area/pavilion, Add a show building for a cloned version of Disney Seas 20k Leagues and a volcano to the roof... It would be Epic

 

[Epcot82Guy]

Imagine if the Nemo ride was Mr. Ray with Nemo and the other 'kid fish' (and Dory as a field trip chaperone) that would accompany your omnimover. And Mr. Ray explaining to the kid fish the wonders of the ocean with Dory asking comic relief questions.

Drop the very very very bad attempt at a book report ride. And have the ride be truly edutainment.

I agree 100%. That was my thought since the beginning. Any version of that concept where you then get to explore more in the Sea Base would have been a cute, great way to take the original story and apply a more family-friendly and IP-driven version.

 

[Movielover]

I'd prefer they dump Turtle Talk and put actual exhibits back in that space (as I said above, they've lost a lot from the original incarnation), but I understand wanting to keep it around if it's still popular for kids.

Turtle Talk as it is now did not take over live animal exhibits, it's reusing one of the original pre-show theaters from the Seabase Alpha days. It's effect on exhibits in the space is minimal.