Jessica Rabbit removed from Trunk- Roger Rabbits Cartoon Spin

[SuddenStorm]

I am not having a bad faith discussion with a non-Native person who has clearly committed to however they feel about Peter Pan.

Would you be willing to explain to me why Tiger Lily is sexualized? The rest of the criticisms against Pan I get. Do I think the ride should be changed? No- but I wouldn't put 'What Makes the Red Man Red' in a movie today.

I guess I'm just genuinely confused at the 'Tiger Lily is sexualized' argument, which has nothing to do with whether or not I'm native.

 

[mickEblu]

Peter Pan, both the attraction and the film, contains grotesque, dehumanizing depictions of Native people, and the film is chock a block full of textbook racial slurs (some of which are still in the instrumental music in the ride queue). The film also hyersexualizes a Native (female) child. Peter Pan should have been the first to be adjusted, along with the Blackface African caricatures of the Jungle Cruise, before anything else.

How is a racial slur in an instrumental?

 

[Model3 McQueen]

Peter Pan, both the attraction and the film, contains grotesque, dehumanizing depictions of Native people, and the film is chock a block full of textbook racial slurs (some of which are still in the instrumental music in the ride queue). The film also hyersexualizes a Native (female) child. Peter Pan should have been the first to be adjusted, along with the Blackface African caricatures of the Jungle Cruise, before anything else.

The movie 300 made my people look weak, crazy, and all around painted Persians in a bad light. Wanna know how many tears I shed about it?

None.

 

[Castle Cake Apologist]

How is a racial slur in an instrumental?

I assume they're referring to the arrangement of "What Makes the *** *** Red." Yes, it's instrumental, but there's really no dancing around the subject matter on that one, like one could arguably do with "Zip-A-Dee-Doo-Dah."

 

[Castle Cake Apologist]

Peter Pan, both the attraction and the film, contains grotesque, dehumanizing depictions of Native people, and the film is chock a block full of textbook racial slurs (some of which are still in the instrumental music in the ride queue). The film also hyersexualizes a Native (female) child. Peter Pan should have been the first to be adjusted, along with the Blackface African caricatures of the Jungle Cruise, before anything else.

I'm typically onboard with any and all criticism of Peter Pan (despite admittedly loving the film and attractions), but I'm having trouble placing where Tiger Lilly is sexualized. She's tied up at one point, but her costume throughout the film is pretty modest. I'm not native, so I admit there may be a connotation I didn't pick up on.

 

[Mac Tonight]

Would you be willing to explain to me why Tiger Lily is sexualized? The rest of the criticisms against Pan I get. Do I think the ride should be changed? No- but I wouldn't put 'What Makes the Red Man Red' in a movie today.

I guess I'm just genuinely confused at the 'Tiger Lily is sexualized' argument, which has nothing to do with whether or not I'm native.

View attachment 591744

Don't you know how it works?? Unless you're part of "X people group", you're not allowed to have a thought, opinion, or feelings about anything concerning "X people group". It's science. Probably.

Keep your (assumed) straight, white, cis, male opinions where they belong!

Or something like that.

 

[Model3 McQueen]

I assume they're referring to the arrangement of "What Makes the *** *** Red." Yes, it's instrumental, but there's really no dancing around the subject matter on that one, like one could arguably do with "Zip-A-Dee-Doo-Dah."

Not that I'm defending the title of that song, but is it meant to sound something along the lines of "what makes a white man white" or "what makes an Asian man asian"? Much like the Washington red skins team name, we didn't consider these things to be a racist looking down upon slur against native americans.

 

[Mac Tonight]

I'm typically onboard with any and all criticism of Peter Pan (despite admittedly loving the film and attractions), but I'm having trouble placing where Tiger Lilly is sexualized. She's tied up at one point, but her costume throughout the film is pretty modest. I'm not native, so I admit there may be a connotation I didn't pick up on.

Pocohontas shows way more skin in her outfit and (according to actual history) was only 11 when the English arrived in Jamestown.

Oops.

 

[Castle Cake Apologist]

Not that I'm defending the title of that song, but is it meant to sound something along the lines of "what makes a white man white" or "what makes an Asian man asian"? Much like the Washington red skins team name, we didn't consider these things to be a racist looking down upon slur against native americans.

No, not really. It's pretty widely considered a slur. Much as you wouldn't refer to somebody of Asian decent as being "yellow." I would say it's up to natives what natives find offensive.

And that's just the title. The song itself is... beyond problematic.

 

[Castle Cake Apologist]

Don't you know how it works?? Unless you're part of "X people group", you're not allowed to have a thought, opinion, or feelings about anything concerning "X people group". It's science. Probably.

Keep your (assumed) straight, white, cis, male opinions where they belong!

Or something like that.

Yes. That's literally how it works. Seriously?

Why would you think a white person has any say in what is offensive to a black person? Or as a straight person to a gay person? This post just screams of this new trend non-marginalized groups seem to love. "Please, sir. May I have a crumb of oppression?"

 

[Model3 McQueen]

No, not really. It's pretty widely considered a slur. Much as you wouldn't refer to somebody of Asian decent as being "yellow." I would say it's up to natives what natives find offensive.

And that's just the title. The song itself is... beyond problematic.

So the same argument could be made for calling Caucasian white. Nobody bats an eye. If we're to fight racism, these double standards need to stop.

I'm assuming the dancing is what is problematic? Its an instrumental no?

 

[1HAPPYGHOSTHOST]

Shut up! Shut up! Shut up!!!

 

[Sharon&Susan]

I assume they're referring to the arrangement of "What Makes the *** *** Red." Yes, it's instrumental, but there's really no dancing around the subject matter on that one, like one could arguably do with "Zip-A-Dee-Doo-Dah."

I think they're actually talking about Following the Leader, that other song isn't in the queue loop.

 

[Castle Cake Apologist]

So the same argument could be made for calling Caucasian white. Nobody bats an eye. If we're to fight racism, these double standards need to stop.

I'm assuming the dancing is what is problematic? Its an instrumental no?

Considering white people haven't been marginalized for centuries, it's not really the same thing at all. Not to mention that native people aren't really "red."

 

[Mac Tonight]

Yes. That's literally how it works. Seriously?

Why would you think a white person has any say in what is offensive to a black person? Or as a straight person to a gay person? This post just screams of this new trend non-marginalized groups seem to love. "Please, sir. May I have a crumb of oppression?"

Clearly my post was sarcasm, but I'll play ball.

Maybe it's as simple as, "I am a person, and I care about people around me."

As a white person with black, asian, mexican, indian, gay friends... am I not "allowed" to care about what happens to them and how they're treated by others? Or am I just supposed to only concern myself with things that matter to white people and "stay in my lane"? How that does that help society?

 

[Castle Cake Apologist]

Shut up! Shut up! Shut up!!!

You really don't handle discourse very well, do you?

 

[Castle Cake Apologist]

Clearly my post was sarcasm, but I'll play ball.

Maybe it's as simple as, "I am a person, and I care about people around me."

As a white person with black, asian, mexican, indian, gay friends... am I not "allowed" to care about what happens to them and how they're treated by others? Or am I just supposed to only concern myself with things that matter to white people and "stay in my lane"? How that does that help society?

And that's fine, wonderful even. However, in the context of the conversation being had, it comes across as you feeling entitled to say what should offend a person from a community you're not part of, which is always wrong. It's the same reason that things like gay marriage shouldn't be up to voters, the majority shouldn't get to decide on things that only affect the minority.

I'm a gay man. I would certainly not expect any of my friends to tell me what should and shouldn't offend me. If you don't have the experience of a black woman, or a gay man, or any other marginalized human, then it's not up to you to decide when they shouldn't find offense in something. And I hope your caring starts with asking them how they actually feel about something, not assuming one way or the other.

 

[Castle Cake Apologist]

I think they're actually talking about Following the Leader, that other song isn't in the queue loop.

Oooh, you're right. I completely forgot there's a slur in that song too.

 

[Californian Elitist]

And that's fine, wonderful even. However, in the context of the conversation being had, it comes across as you feeling entitled to say what should offend a person from a community you're not part of, which is always wrong. It's the same reason that things like gay marriage shouldn't be up to voters, the majority shouldn't get to decide on things that only affect the minority.

I'm a gay man. I would certainly not expect any of my friends to tell me what should and shouldn't offend me. If you don't have the experience of a black woman, or a gay man, or any other marginalized human, then it's not up to you to decide when they shouldn't find offense in something. And I hope your caring starts with asking them how they actually feel about something, not assuming one way or the other.

Periodt.

 

[Mac Tonight]

And that's fine, wonderful even. However, in the context of the conversation being had, it comes across as you feeling entitled to say what should offend a person from a community you're not part of, which is always wrong. It's the same reason that things like gay marriage shouldn't be up to voters, the majority shouldn't get to decide on things that only affect the minority.

I'm a gay man. I would certainly not expect any of my friends to tell me what should and shouldn't offend me. If you don't have the experience of a black woman, or a gay man, or any other marginalized human, then it's not up to you to decide when they shouldn't find offense in something. And I hope your caring starts with asking them how they actually feel about something, not assuming one way or the other.

We do talk all the time, and whenever things happen in society (like last year's BLM protests) they're the first people I reach out to in order to understand their perspective and help inform how I respond. I think we're confusing "finding offense" in something with "having an opinion". That's probably on me.

But I think in the context of this discussion, I don't think one needs to be 100% of native descent in order to question why the character of Tiger Lily is being considered "hypersexualized" within the context of her appearance in Peter Pan. I have to be honest, this is the first time I've ever heard her described in that way.