Is Walt Disney Imagineering dead?

[George Lucas on a Bench]

Where did the vehicles stop?

 

[Deleted member 107043]

I don't have the energy to get into this debate again.

Who does?

 

[George Lucas on a Bench]

We don't have any energy since they closed that attraction at EPCOT.

 

[TROR]

Hey all, new member here, but have been lurking for the past decade or so, so hello!

I hate to make this my first post, but I just want to say that just because you put your foot down and present opinion as fact doesn't mean that it is, indeed, fact. How is having a ride vehicle stopping an example of WDI being incapable of telling a story? What if the story calls for the vehicle to stop?

I already addressed this.

Stopping to look at something isn't a ride. You need to have continual motion unless the story calls for you to stop. This can be your ride vehicle is frozen, the ride vehicle "breaks down," etc. But you can't have the ride vehicle stop without reason.

 

[Curious Constance]

Hey all, new member here, but have been lurking for the past decade or so, so hello!

I hate to make this my first post, but I just want to say that just because you put your foot down and present opinion as fact doesn't mean that it is, indeed, fact. How is having a ride vehicle stopping an example of WDI being incapable of telling a story? What if the story calls for the vehicle to stop?

Ten year lurker! That's wild!

 

[BrianLo]

The question I ask myself is

"Could today's Imagineers recreate a ride like the Haunted Mansion?"- a unique take on a "dark ride" that relied on loads of practical effects, animatronics, illusions, as well as a phenomenal original score and excellent narration.

And, the answer is no.

Ummmmmmm, Mystic Manor..... so yes?

Even Sindbad falls into the purview of 'today's WDI'.

 

[TROR]

Ummmmmmm, Mystic Manor..... so yes?

Mystic Manor is no Haunted Mansion. It's some of the best work WDI has put out as of late, but it's still nowhere near the level of The Haunted Mansion.

Even Sindbad falls into the purview of 'today's WDI'.

The new version or the opening day version? Opening day version I'll agree with you 100% but I wouldn't consider 2001's Imagineers "today's WDI." If you're saying the new version, I'll agree it's good but it's not as good as the original nor was it made from scratch.

 

[BrianLo]

Mystic Manor is no Haunted Mansion. It's some of the best work WDI has put out as of late, but it's still nowhere near the level of The Haunted Mansion.

It's more intimate than Haunted Mansion, which is I think the holdup. But really by all the metrics @SuddenStorm pointed out it successfully meets a lot of those flags.

I just cannot support this notion that WDI is dried up when Shanghai's Pirates and Mystic Manor are quite literally my top two attractions. This is not to undermine the fantastic work WED did in the 70's/80's. But there really is some great stuff out of WDI recently. Radiator Springs Racers included, but obviously being dismissed because of its toddler IP tie in.

 

[donaldtoo]

Imagineering dead? No, not yet. In a management-induced coma, probably...mostly. Every time they start to come out of it, the powers that be put the pillow back over their face, but, just enough not to snuff them completely...yet.
I can hear it now...
"For now, they are still useful to us, as we see fit, of course."

 

[Curious Constance]

They're married (to the Bob's), but they ain't dead.

 

[TROR]

It's more intimate than Haunted Mansion, which is I think the holdup. But really by all the metrics @SuddenStorm pointed out it successfully meets a lot of those flags.

Now this is just for me, but I have 5 problems with Mystic Manor.

1. The character designs look like they came out of a generic straight to DVD feature from some unknown animation company in the $1 bin at Walmart.

2. The tone is too comical but it's never once funny. There's nothing witty or creative about the citizens of Pompeii lifting their goblets above the lava and clanking them together or Lord Mystic saying "you didn't touch my music box did you?" to Albert like this is an episode of Curious George.

3. The entire place feels way too clean. I don't know if this is a budgetary issue or a creative decision, but the place does not feel cluttered or lived in at all. On top of that, it doesn't even feel like a home, it feels like a museum. Tower of Terror at TDS, also part of the SEA storyline, has the hotel feel like a hotel that's been decorated with Harrison Hightower's many treasures. Mystic Manor doesn't do that because never once do we see something that even looks like something that'd be in a home. No bedrooms, no kitchens, no dining hall. Nothing. Just neat displays sectioned into different rooms.

4. The preshow tells us every little thing and none of it matters. That's not really just a problem with Mystic Manor, but WDI entirely and it's been that way for a while it seems. The queue is the preshow. The only preshow I can think of that actually is necessary is Alien Encounter. Every other one that's ever existed could've told us what we needed to know with subtle hints in the queue or with hints on the ride.

5. The stopping and starting throughout the ride. I wanted to go back and rewatch the attraction to make sure I got this right, but the ride vehicles stop a around nine times. First, immediately after the ride begins we stop to see Albert open the box. Then we go into the music room and stop again to see the instruments come alive. Finally we go through a few rooms only to stop again to look at a man eating plant. We then go through a room and stop again in front of a painting. Now I was going to give this one a pass because the painting freezes the room, but we stop before that happens so I have to count it. Then it gets kind of debatable but depending on your version you go into the dungeon (?) and stop in front of a cannon and then you stop in front of a suit of armor holding a helmet. Back on the move, you go into the Egypt room just to, you guessed it, stop. Then the Tiki Room and you stop. Then you stop a second time in the Tiki Room to look at Albert pinned to the walls. Finale happens where you're constantly spinning which is cool although this room really shows my last problem because it's so bare. Lastly, you're back where you're started and just like then you're stopped.

Nine times your ride vehicle stops to look at something! For no point other than they wanted the ride vehicle to stop! The story never once calls for it nor is it ever even necessary. Every single one of these scenes could've just been done by having the ride vehicle keep moving and it'd drastically improve the attraction. I mean, imagine if Pirates of the Caribbean stopped at every vignette just so you could watch the entire scene loop.

I will say Danny Elfman's score is pretty good and I like the original song for the attraction but there's way too little of it.

I just cannot support this notion that WDI is dried up when Shanghai's Pirates and Mystic Manor are quite literally my top two attractions. This is not to undermine the fantastic work WED did in the 70's/80's. But there really is some great stuff out of WDI recently. Radiator Springs Racers included, but obviously being dismissed because of its toddler IP tie in.

Radiator Springs Racer is a beautiful and fun ride with great animatronics. The dark ride portion is nothing special, though.

I doubt I'll ever find myself in China so I'll never have the full experience of Shanghai's Pirates of the Caribbean, but from everything I've seen it doesn't hold a candle to Marc Davis's take. Action movies do not translate to theme park attractions in the same way horror, adventure, and comedy do.

Imagineering dead? No, not yet. In a management-induced coma, probably...mostly. Every time they start to come out of it, the powers that be put the pillow back over their face, but, just enough not to snuff them completely...yet.
I can hear it now...
"For now, they are still useful to us, as we see fit, of course."

Then might I ask how you can explain why there are such atrocities like the latest additions to Pirates of the Caribbean at WDW? It's nothing but poor storytelling, the way I see it, and no budget increase could have fixed it.

 

[BrianLo]

Now this is just for me, but I have 5 problems with Mystic Manor.

1. The character designs look like they came out of a generic straight to DVD feature from some unknown animation company in the $1 bin at Walmart.

2. The tone is too comical but it's never once funny. There's nothing witty or creative about the citizens of Pompeii lifting their goblets above the lava and clanking them together or Lord Mystic saying "you didn't touch my music box did you?" to Albert like this is an episode of Curious George.

3. The entire place feels way too clean. I don't know if this is a budgetary issue or a creative decision, but the place does not feel cluttered or lived in at all. On top of that, it doesn't even feel like a home, it feels like a museum. Tower of Terror at TDS, also part of the SEA storyline, has the hotel feel like a hotel that's been decorated with Harrison Hightower's many treasures. Mystic Manor doesn't do that because never once do we see something that even looks like something that'd be in a home. No bedrooms, no kitchens, no dining hall. Nothing. Just neat displays sectioned into different rooms.

4. The preshow tells us every little thing and none of it matters. That's not really just a problem with Mystic Manor, but WDI entirely and it's been that way for a while it seems. The queue is the preshow. The only preshow I can think of that actually is necessary is Alien Encounter. Every other one that's ever existed could've told us what we needed to know with subtle hints in the queue or with hints on the ride.

5. The stopping and starting throughout the ride. I wanted to go back and rewatch the attraction to make sure I got this right, but the ride vehicles stop a around nine times. First, immediately after the ride begins we stop to see Albert open the box. Then we go into the music room and stop again to see the instruments come alive. Finally we go through a few rooms only to stop again to look at a man eating plant. We then go through a room and stop again in front of a painting. Now I was going to give this one a pass because the painting freezes the room, but we stop before that happens so I have to count it. Then it gets kind of debatable but depending on your version you go into the dungeon (?) and stop in front of a cannon and then you stop in front of a suit of armor holding a helmet. Back on the move, you go into the Egypt room just to, you guessed it, stop. Then the Tiki Room and you stop. Then you stop a second time in the Tiki Room to look at Albert pinned to the walls. Finale happens where you're constantly spinning which is cool although this room really shows my last problem because it's so bare. Lastly, you're back where you're started and just like then you're stopped.

Nine times your ride vehicle stops to look at something! For no point other than they wanted the ride vehicle to stop! The story never once calls for it nor is it ever even necessary. Every single one of these scenes could've just been done by having the ride vehicle keep moving and it'd drastically improve the attraction.

I will say Danny Elfman's score is pretty good and I like the original song for the attraction but there's way too little of it.

Thanks for the thorough response, but you've actually missed a lot of the queue pre-show elements ironically. It is a museum. The ride vehicles I don't think physically stop as frequently as you've listed, sometimes they take a bit of a position and spin you around to focus in on the action, but apart from the opening and closing scene you really only get the general sense coming to a full stop from the ride portion in that freezing room. Which only half the vehicles enter.

The entire conceit of the "Mystic Magneto electric carriage" is that he has built a vehicle to tour you around the museum he has set up displaying all of the exhibits of unique items from their explorations. The reason the vehicles take their places is serviced by the story. You aren't omnimoved through a museum, you are taken from exhibit to exhibit with time to appreciate each. Of course the entire tour experience has gone haywire as you follow Albert through, but you are on Henry's programmed ride path in his absence. The magic being the entire thing folds back in on itself and he is none the wiser.

Furthermore, the place is pristine because the queue sets ups cleverly with pictures that Henry has opened it up at the turn of the century (in operation for about a year), but part of the special tour you are on is a sneak peak at their most recent acquisition - the music box - from their last explorative adventure. The place shouldn't be a cluttered mess or dilapidated, it is operational and the proprietor is alive and well.


I'm going to visit HKDL again in about two weeks so I'd rather not fully rewatch a video to make sure I'm not recalling this all completely incorrectly. But this is a classic example that you really need to experience these attractions in person and cannot truly make an informed judgement from a youtube video. Shanghai Pirates included, whose overall experience does just not translate to someone's camcorder.

 

[TROR]

Thanks for the thorough response, but you've actually missed a lot of the queue pre-show elements ironically. It is a museum. The ride vehicles I don't think physically stop as frequently as you've listed, sometimes they take a bit of a position and spin you around to focus in on the action, but apart from the opening and closing scene you really only get the general sense coming to a full stop from the ride portion in that freezing room. Which only half the vehicles enter.

One of the many problems of not being able to be there in person (or at least have it be in the states so there could be easier documentation of it). It does stop that much, though. Sometimes, admittedly, it's only for a few seconds, but it still stops way too much imo.

I'll touch on the museum part a minute.

The entire conceit of the "Mystic Magneto electric carriage" is that he has built a vehicle to tour you around the museum he has set up displaying all of the exhibits of unique items from their explorations. The reason the vehicles take their places is serviced by the story. You aren't omnimoved through a museum, you are taken from exhibit to exhibit with time to appreciate each. Of course the entire tour experience has gone haywire as you follow Albert through, but you are on Henry's programmed ride path in his absence. The magic being the entire thing folds back in on itself and he is none the wiser.

Oh my gosh this is so excess. Why does everything have to be so laid out in detail? What is WDI's obsession with useless information? Just have them be ride vehicles and nothing more!

But you know what, you are right that there is a purpose to all this and for that I apologize. However, even with the purpose, I still dislike the flow of the attraction and feel it'd be improved by not having it stop so excessively.

Furthermore, the place is pristine because the queue sets ups cleverly with pictures that Henry has opened it up at the turn of the century (in operation for about a year), but part of the special tour you are on is a sneak peak at their most recent acquisition - the music box - from their last explorative adventure. The place shouldn't be a cluttered mess or dilapidated, it is operational and the proprietor is alive and well.

Even with the explanation with it all being a museum, I still don't like it. It's clearly a mansion, not a museum. If it was a situation of Lord Mystic died long ago and now his place was turned into a museum, maybe I could buy it, but that's just a dumb story to me. It's like they wanted to have it be HKDL's Haunted Mansion while also be something completely new. Maybe if it was called Mystic Museum instead of Mystic Manor I'd have less harsh feelings for it.

I'm going to visit HKDL again in about two weeks so I'd rather not fully rewatch a video to make sure I'm not recalling this all completely incorrectly. But this is a classic example that you really need to experience these attractions in person and cannot truly make an informed judgement from a youtube video. Shanghai Pirates included, whose overall experience does just not translate to someone's camcorder.

It's true that you can't judge it entirely, but I can still appreciate attractions like Submarine Voyage, World of Motion, Country Bear Jamboree, Mine Train Thru Nature's Wonderland, Journey to the Center of the Earth, and other extinct and foreign attractions I've never experienced. So even if I did go and experience Mystic Manor, am I going to change my feelings on its art style, its humor, or its pacing? Honestly, no. They may have explanations for all of these things, but just because something is a creative decision doesn't necessarily mean it's a good one.

 

[BrianLo]

Even with the explanation with it all being a museum, I still don't like it. It's clearly a mansion, not a museum. If it was a situation of Lord Mystic died long ago and now his place was turned into a museum, maybe I could buy it, but that's just a dumb story to me. It's like they wanted to have it be HKDL's Haunted Mansion while also be something completely new. Maybe if it was called Mystic Museum instead of Mystic Manor I'd have less harsh feelings for it.

For clarity, it is still his Mansion (or Manor), that he lives in. But a portion of it is open to the public as a museum to display his private collection. The public tour doesn't obviously go to his bedroom, but it is implied he and Albert still live there while they are not out exploring.

The vehicle is a bit overzealously explained. So you'll really like this... There are also a series of images where you can see he presented the vehicle at the 1899 World's Fair. Or maybe the 1900 World's Fair. Anyways the vehicle is his invention.

You also are technically stepping back into the year 1900/1901 (can't remember which) by entering the land.

I know you mentioned the vehicles are stopped, but they are also spinning while stopped to point you at things, I think the camera doesn't encapsulate that very well.



No nothing will get you on board with the art style, I long said that's a love it or hate it aesthetic choice. They even made them more cartoony than Hightower, who occupies the same 'universe'. A ride you also are stepping into an active, rather than dilapidated version of in Tokyo.

I'll just also have to again disagree that the pacing is even better than an omnimover, because they can finely control the pacing as opposed to being limited by the size of the scenes as the only means of temporally controlling how long you are in them. It's different than an omnimover pacing, but I'll still argue it's better as a result.

 

[TROR]

The vehicle is a bit overzealously explained. So you'll really like this... There are also a series of images where you can see he presented the vehicle at the 1899 World's Fair. Or maybe the 1900 World's Fair. Anyways the vehicle is his invention.

Are they as terrible as this?

I'll just also have to again disagree that the pacing is even better than an omnimover, because they can finely control the pacing as opposed to being limited by the size of the scenes as the only means of temporally controlling how long you are in them. It's different than an omnimover pacing, but I'll still argue it's better as a result.

Being able to control the pace definitely makes a difference, but you can look at something like the People Mover that manages to control the pace yet never stops.

No nothing will get you on board with the art style, I long said that's a love it or hate it aesthetic choice. They even made them more cartoony than Hightower, who occupies the same 'universe'. A ride you also are stepping into an active, rather than dilapidated version of in Tokyo.

Yeah but that's the thing, Tokyo's feels completely lived in like it's a hotel people would actually stay at and the artifacts actually look like artifacts. Maybe that kind of setting just lends itself better than a squeaky clean museum?


Someone mentioned earlier that all trackless ride vehicles come to stops during the ride. I didn't think of it earlier, but is this just a problem with the ride system itself? Is it not able to consistently move? It would explain why WDI went to such unnecessary lengths to explain in story why they stop.

 

[BrianLo]

Someone mentioned earlier that all trackless ride vehicles come to stops during the ride. I didn't think of it earlier, but is this just a problem with the ride system itself? Is it not able to consistently move? It would explain why WDI went to such unnecessary lengths to explain in story why they stop.

Ha - ok that picture sure is something! I get your viewpoint with that choice.

I was going to tack onto my last post, but didn't want you to miss it that Hunny Hunt in Tokyo keeps a more pressured pace like I think you are looking for. Also Aquatopia literally is always moving. It's definitely not an LPS limitation, it's a choice.

But this ride fits into more "meandering magic" as opposed to "frenetic fantasy" that I think from the sounds of things you really prefer. Something like a bus-bar fantasyland dark ride classic that sort of keeps whipping you through. I'd also like to officially coin my new ride descriptors.

 

[TROR]

Ha - ok that picture sure is something! I get your viewpoint with that choice.

I was going to tack onto my last post, but didn't want you to miss it that Hunny Hunt in Tokyo keeps a more pressured pace like I think you are looking for. Also Aquatopia literally is always moving. It's definitely not an LPS limitation, it's a choice.

I actually went back to rewatch a ride through of Hunny Hunt because I wanted to see if it did it as well, and sure enough it does, but I've never once thought about it on there. I did notice, however, that when the vehicle is stopped it sort of fidgets around. I'm assuming that's what you're talking about with Mystic Manor? Frankly, the fidgeting doesn't fix the problem for me as it's still stationary.

Really odd that every LPS attraction seems to make this same decision to have the ride stop because I definitely think it's incredibly inferior of a way to tell a story. It really is more like watching a show than a ride. There's a beginning, a middle, and an end to each scene. That's not how I view scenes on dark rides, though. To me, dark ride scenes are endless loops that you can jump into and understand everything. I know these aren't scenes, but the songs Grim Grinning Ghosts and Yo Ho both reflect this. Neither songs starts or end. They just keep going.

But this ride fits into more "meandering magic" as opposed to "frenetic fantasy" that I think from the sounds of things you really prefer. Something like a bus-bar fantasyland dark ride classic that sort of keeps whipping you through. I'd also like to officially coin my new ride descriptors.

I like the terms but I'm not entirely sure what you mean with them tbh.

 

[Deleted member 107043]

So what's happening with the Dumbo hedge?

 

[BrianLo]

I actually went back to rewatch a ride through of Hunny Hunt because I wanted to see if it did it as well, and sure enough it does, but I've never once thought about it on there. I did notice, however, that when the vehicle is stopped it sort of fidgets around. I'm assuming that's what you're talking about with Mystic Manor? Frankly, the fidgeting doesn't fix the problem for me as it's still stationary.

The only place I can seriously recall any sort of fullstop apart from the opening book is the Tigger scene. Is that what you mean? The ride vehicles pull onto a motion platform and are bouncing up and down physically during that scene though.

Otherwise the stops must be so minuscule that they are not registering with my memory.

 

[brb1006]

I actually went back to rewatch a ride through of Hunny Hunt because I wanted to see if it did it as well, and sure enough it does, but I've never once thought about it on there. I did notice, however, that when the vehicle is stopped it sort of fidgets around. I'm assuming that's what you're talking about with Mystic Manor? Frankly, the fidgeting doesn't fix the problem for me as it's still stationary.

Really odd that every LPS attraction seems to make this same decision to have the ride stop because I definitely think it's incredibly inferior of a way to tell a story. It really is more like watching a show than a ride. There's a beginning, a middle, and an end to each scene. That's not how I view scenes on dark rides, though. To me, dark ride scenes are endless loops that you can jump into and understand everything. I know these aren't scenes, but the songs Grim Grinning Ghosts and Yo Ho both reflect this. Neither songs starts or end. They just keep going.



I like the terms but I'm not entirely sure what you mean with them tbh.

The Tigger scene in Hunny Hunt is supposed to make you feel like your bouncing with him.