Rumor Is the End of Innoventions Near?

[jt04]

Part of it. There was going to be a horizons 2. It was canned, too expensive.
Martin's vid on Horizons and/or mission space has more.

I'm glad we got DAK instead. Sounds like that business model for Future World was a money pit.

 

[Casper Gutman]

Those attractions were fading in their appeal as they did not hold up well during repeat viewings for too many. If it was otherwise they wouldn't have started changing everything.

I guess this can't be repeated enough.

This is utter, abject nonsense. It is not only a terrible way to think about Disney, it is a terrible way to think about anything.

You are imbuing Disney execs with godlike omniscience and infallibility, removing their decisions from all broader context. You are dismissing a host of considerations that are vital to understanding the decisions that destroyed EPCOT (or any business decision), including wider cultural and financial forces, fallible data, systemic problems in the company’s organizational structure, industrial trends, and, most importantly, the preferences, prejudices, and misconceptions of key executives.

If you’ve read any entertainment industry history (or indeed, any business history in general), you’d know that even the greatest geniuses in the field, folks like Thalberg or Sarnoff or, yes, Disney, often made staggeringly bad decisions. And those were the legends, not the floundering flop-sweat-ers that ran Disney in the wake of Frank Wells tragic passing.

I can give you one outside factor off the top of my head - the entertainment industry’s ‘90s mania for “edginess” and “‘tude,” the force that helped give us Mortal Kombat video games and Rob Liefeld comics and movies like Spawn. Disney fell hard for that trend - California Adventure was a temple to Hollywood’s pathetic pursuit of edgy cool, and the foul reek of ‘tude still wafts through Imagination.

But I guess edginess and tude was what entertainment needed, because it’s what those infallible execs across multiple branches of the entertainment industry chose to give us. And who can argue with the timeless appeal of Idle Hands or Bubsy the Bobcat... or modern EPCOT.

 

[mikejs78]

Let’s start with the name. It’s already outdated. Epcot is not the theme. It wasn’t the theme since it was opened. The acronym means nothing. I doubt they will take a major step to correct the name. It should be renamed as the Disney “World” Park. The front section should be renamed from Future World to Fantastic Adventures (yes, I’m borrowing from Universal), the rear will remain World Showcase. That’s the theme!!!

What's the theme of the park then? Fantastic adventures and World Showcase don't fit into any semblence of a park theme.

The dedication of Epcot reads:

To all who come to this place of joy, hope and friendship, welcome.

Epcot is inspired by Walt Disney's creative vision. Here, human achievements are celebrated through imagination, wonders of enterprise and concepts of a future that promises new and exciting benefits for all.

May EPCOT Center entertain, inform and inspire and above all, may it instill a new sense of belief and pride in man's ability to shape a world that offers hope to people everywhere.

There are many different ways that vision could be realized without reverting back to 1980s EPCOT Center. I'm not arguing we go back - what I'm arguing for is something going forward that retains that vision, even if it's a whole new way of trying to realize it.

Those attractions were fading in their appeal as they did not hold up well during repeat viewings for too many. If it was otherwise they wouldn't have started changing everything.

I guess this can't be repeated enough.

Yet Spaceship Earth today remains an immensely popular attraction to this day.

The truth is the attractions were immensly popular. But they needed to be updated as planned, and weren't.

Regardless, that's over. I'm not advocating that we go back to that. But Disney can do something new and interesting that's still in the spirit of Epcot. And throw in IP everywhere, I don't really care. Just do it in a way that honors the theme of Epcot and produces good attractions.

 

[jt04]

This is utter, abject nonsense. It is not only a terrible way to think about Disney, it is a terrible way to think about anything.

You are imbuing Disney execs with godlike omniscience and infallibility, removing their decisions from all broader context. You are dismissing a host of considerations that are vital to understanding the decisions that destroyed EPCOT (or any business decision), including wider cultural and financial forces, fallible data, systemic problems in the company’s organizational structure, industrial trends, and, most importantly, the preferences, prejudices, and misconceptions of key executives.

If you’ve read any entertainment industry history (or indeed, any business history in general), you’d know that even the greatest geniuses in the field, folks like Thalberg or Sarnoff or, yes, Disney, often made staggeringly bad decisions. And those were the legends, not the floundering flop-sweat-ers that ran Disney in the wake of Frank Wells tragic passing.

I can give you one outside factor off the top of my head - the entertainment industry’s ‘90s mania for “edginess” and “‘tude,” the force that helped give us Mortal Kombat video games and Rob Liefeld comics and movies like Spawn. Disney fell hard for that trend - California Adventure was a temple to Hollywood’s pathetic pursuit of edgy cool, and the foul reek of ‘tude still wafts through Imagination.

But I guess edginess and tude was what entertainment needed, because it’s what those infallible execs across multiple branches of the entertainment industry chose to give us. And who can argue with the timeless appeal of Idle Hands or Bubsy the Bobcat... or modern EPCOT.

I do agree the solutions were no solutions. Although M:S and Soarin' can still be adapted. However, I still think the original concept was doomed.

My theory is Disney promised Florida a "city of the future" to get all the concessions from the state such as RC. When Walt died there was nobody that could fill his shoes. Yet they had to do something to appease the politicians. EC was hatched but I would guess Disney Corp. would have chosen a different course. So Florida got a permanent world's fair done reluctantly. Because it is a doomed premise.

If Walt had lived long enough I think Walt's E.P.C.O.T. would have become what Silicon Valley is today. Don't forget Florida already had the space program at that time so plenty of scientists and engineers were moving in.

Instead we got what we did. A shadow of Walt's concept.

 

[jt04]

What's the theme of the park then? Fantastic adventures and World Showcase don't fit into any semblence of a park theme.

The dedication of Epcot reads:



There are many different ways that vision could be realized without reverting back to 1980s EPCOT Center. I'm not arguing we go back - what I'm arguing for is something going forward that retains that vision, even if it's a whole new way of trying to realize it.


Yet Spaceship Earth today remains an immensely popular attraction to this day.

The truth is the attractions were immensly popular. But they needed to be updated as planned, and weren't.

Regardless, that's over. I'm not advocating that we go back to that. But Disney can do something new and interesting that's still in the spirit of Epcot. And throw in IP everywhere, I don't really care. Just do it in a way that honors the theme of Epcot and produces good attractions.

I'm not sure SSE would be as popular if it was a flat omnimover. It is the best storyline of all the originals. But much has been lost to refurbs. If they announced Time Racers I would consider it a step in the right direction.

 

[DanielBB8]

What's the theme of the park then? Fantastic adventures and World Showcase don't fit into any semblence of a park theme.

The dedication of Epcot reads:

There are many different ways that vision could be realized without reverting back to 1980s EPCOT Center. I'm not arguing we go back - what I'm arguing for is something going forward that retains that vision, even if it's a whole new way of trying to realize it.

Funny how you wonder what the theme is when all I changed from the original lands is Future World to Fantastic Adventures. I don’t propose any change to World Showcase. So what is the theme of World Showcase? Self explanatory. It is what it is.

The dedication can remain. There’s no theme to hold it together. Future World is an outdated contemporary office park theming that can be changed to fit any desired theme or outcome. I find it fascinating that you don’t realize Epcot’s limitations. There’s no theme to Imagination. It’s just a concept. Space and Energy has no theme. They are travel or scientific theories. So I see no validity to your demand for a theme. We can certainly invent one when we change to name of the land to be more appropriate.

 

[DreamfinderGuy]

I'm not sure SSE would be as popular if it was a flat omnimover. It is the best storyline of all the originals. But much has been lost to refurbs. If they announced Time Racers I would consider it a step in the right direction.

When do we get a dislike button

 

[jt04]

When do we get a dislike button

Lol!

They could put the sets into what is now Buzz Lightyear and have it fit in Tomorrowland by putting emphasis back on emerging communication technology. And maybe original narration.

Does that help?

 

[mikejs78]

Funny how you wonder what the theme is when all I changed from the original lands is Future World to Fantastic Adventures. I don’t propose any change to World Showcase. So what is the theme of World Showcase? Self explanatory. It is what it is.

The dedication can remain. There’s no theme to hold it together. Future World is an outdated contemporary office park theming that can be changed to fit any desired theme or outcome. I find it fascinating that you don’t realize Epcot’s limitations. There’s no theme to Imagination. It’s just a concept. Space and Energy has no theme. They are travel or scientific theories. So I see no validity to your demand for a theme. We can certainly invent one when we change to name of the land to be more appropriate.

The themes of Epcot are simple: human achievement and the promise of tomorrow. For Future World, it's really focused on human achievement - in space, in transportation, in cultivating the land, in the seas, etc. Imagination was a look at how the human imagination was what sparked all of this.

World Showcase is about the various cultures of the world, and bringing us all together for the promise of tomorrow. It's a Small World, after all.

So yes, Epcot has a theme. It's a testament to how far it's fallen from it's original premise that you weren't able to realize that.

 

[mikejs78]

Lol!

They could put the sets into what is now Buzz Lightyear and have it fit in Tomorrowland by putting emphasis back on emerging communication technology. And maybe original narration.

Does that help?

Why do that when the attraction is still very popular? Yeah, the latest version has it's flaws but it's nothing a refurb couldn't fix. And Time Racers was deemed structurally impossible.

 

[jt04]

Why do that when the attraction is still very popular? Yeah, the latest version has it's flaws but it's nothing a refurb couldn't fix. And Time Racers was deemed structurally impossible.

This would be a way to save the attraction if they are indeed abandoning the parks original concept. Which seems increasingly likely.

New tech and composites might cause them to revisit past ideas? Just theorizing.

 

[Rich Brownn]

I do agree the solutions were no solutions. Although M:S and Soarin' can still be adapted. However, I still think the original concept was doomed.

My theory is Disney promised Florida a "city of the future" to get all the concessions from the state such as RC. When Walt died there was nobody that could fill his shoes. Yet they had to do something to appease the politicians. EC was hatched but I would guess Disney Corp. would have chosen a different course. So Florida got a permanent world's fair done reluctantly. Because it is a doomed premise.

If Walt had lived long enough I think Walt's E.P.C.O.T. would have become what Silicon Valley is today. Don't forget Florida already had the space program at that time so plenty of scientists and engineers were moving in.

Instead we got what we did. A shadow of Walt's concept.

When the reality of the concept of a city set in, Imagineers realized the concept was too flawed and presented too many issues to deal with. Even discounting the prospect of submitting prototype and experimental features to people that may or may not work (and thereby causing numerous problems) there was the problem of voting - if it stayed in Disney property those people living there would vote on Disney issues. If Disney de-annexed the property it would then fall out of Reedy Creek and into state laws which would stop the E and P parts. In the end, EPCOT Center became the compromise. (It started out as two separate things - EPCOT Future World Theme Center and Walt Disney World Showcase).

 

[jt04]

When the reality of the concept of a city set in, Imagineers realized the concept was too flawed and presented too many issues to deal with. Even discounting the prospect of submitting prototype and experimental features to people that may or may not work (and thereby causing numerous problems) there was the problem of voting - if it stayed in Disney property those people living there would vote on Disney issues. If Disney de-annexed the property it would then fall out of Reedy Creek and into state laws which would stop the E and P parts. In the end, EPCOT Center became the compromise. (It started out as two separate things - EPCOT Future World Theme Center and Walt Disney World Showcase).

I am sure Walt Disney was always showing doubters in and out of the company that what they assumed was not possible was possible. Sort of his trademark in life.

Not sure about voting issues. I would guess it would have eventually incorporated like any other city once it became self sustaining. No telling how it would have evolved. Possibly a central business core with no permanent residences.

 

[DanielBB8]

The themes of Epcot are simple: human achievement and the promise of tomorrow. For Future World, it's really focused on human achievement - in space, in transportation, in cultivating the land, in the seas, etc. Imagination was a look at how the human imagination was what sparked all of this.

World Showcase is about the various cultures of the world, and bringing us all together for the promise of tomorrow. It's a Small World, after all.

So yes, Epcot has a theme. It's a testament to how far it's fallen from it's original premise that you weren't able to realize that.

So let’s bring it back with Zootopia, which is a metaphor for the promise of human behavior. We can coexist.

Inside Out will allow us to realize our emotional state of mind to be better humans.

 

[jt04]

So let’s bring it back with Zootopia, which is a metaphor for the promise of human behavior. We can coexist.

Inside Out will allow us to realize our emotional state of mind to be better humans.

I thought Zootopia was a metaphor for surrendering individualism to the collective 'good'.

Non-conformity is marginalized and then caricatured.

Resistance is futile and all that.

Exactly the opposite of Walt Disney's life.

 

[lazyboy97o]

When the reality of the concept of a city set in, Imagineers realized the concept was too flawed and presented too many issues to deal with. Even discounting the prospect of submitting prototype and experimental features to people that may or may not work (and thereby causing numerous problems) there was the problem of voting - if it stayed in Disney property those people living there would vote on Disney issues. If Disney de-annexed the property it would then fall out of Reedy Creek and into state laws which would stop the E and P parts. In the end, EPCOT Center became the compromise. (It started out as two separate things - EPCOT Future World Theme Center and Walt Disney World Showcase).

Reedy Creek Improvement District is not exempt from state law.

 

[mikejs78]

So let’s bring it back with Zootopia, which is a metaphor for the promise of human behavior. We can coexist.

Inside Out will allow us to realize our emotional state of mind to be better humans.

Done right, ideas like that could work. Spaceship Earth could stay and be slightly updated to focus on how our drive to communicate has made a world where we are all neighbors, etc... That fits decently into the theme of Epcot and makes it distinct enough from the other parks. While I'd love a 2020 version of Epcot Center, this type of thinking could be something that works.

I thought Zootopia was a metaphor for surrendering individualism to the collective 'good'.

Non-conformity is marginalized and then caricatured.

Resistance is futile and all that.

Exactly the opposite of Walt Disney's life.

Not quite sure how you get that from the movie.

 

[jt04]

Done right, ideas like that could work. Spaceship Earth could stay and be slightly updated to focus on how our drive to communicate has made a world where we are all neighbors, etc... That fits decently into the theme of Epcot and makes it distinct enough from the other parks. While I'd love a 2020 version of Epcot Center, this type of thinking could be something that works.


Not quite sure how you get that from the movie.

Something was off about it. It was beautifully animated, great soundtrack etc. But I left the theater not feeling good about the story. Read some critiques and reviews and realized it had a lot of politics woven in. Very far left. Not at all surprised this movie was allowed to 'break out' in China and that they are building a land there.

It is not a movie that champions individualism or American ideals. IMO.

 

[jt04]

Wakanda would work in FW far better than Zootopia.

Wall-E also a good choice. IMO.

WiR, Incredibles. Many possibilities.

 

[Haymarket2008]

Wakanda would work in FW far better than Zootopia.

Wall-E also a good choice. IMO.

WiR, Incredibles. Many possibilities.

Apart from Wall-E (kinda), a biggggg no to all of the above.