Is attendance really down at WDW this or…

[Disneyhead'71]

Just to show some viable options to a WDW vacation, there are some really good deals out there right now. Like $1,554 for 2 people for 4 nights/5 days at a 4.5 star all inclusive resort on the beach in Punta Cana, Dominican Republic, including flights.

Or if you really want to kick it up a notch you could do the Iberostar Grand Bavaro, a 5 star, adults only, all inclusive with 24 hour room service, 8 restaurants, and 6 bars. It is adjacent to the above resort with access to it's restaurants, pools, and beach. That's all the steak, lobster (in season), and booze you can eat/drink for only $2,538 for 2 people including flights.

Now let tell you about the difficult planning process. Pick you dates, pick your destination, pick your hotel, pick your room, click the add airport transfer option, pay. Done.

I do understand that laying on the beach or sitting at a swim up bar at an adults only all inclusive beach resort is vastly different than a Day at the MK. Just saying that these kind of options are now more attractive considering Disney's sky rocketing prices, exhausting planning process, and regimented app controlled in park experience.

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

Just to show some viable options to a WDW vacation, there are some really good deals out there right now. Like $1,554 for 2 people for 4 nights/5 days at a 4.5 star all inclusive resort on the beach in Punta Cana, Dominican Republic, including flights.

Or if you really want to kick it up a notch you could do the Iberostar Grand Bavaro, a 5 star, adults only, all inclusive with 24 hour room service, 8 restaurants, and 6 bars. It is adjacent to the above resort with access to it's restaurants, pools, and beach. That's all the steak, lobster (in season), and booze you can drink for only $2,538 for 2 people including flights.

Now let tell you about the difficult planning process. Pick you dates, pick your destination, pick your hotel, pick your room, click the add airport transfer option, pay. Done.

I do understand that laying on the beach or sitting at a swim up bar at an adults only beach resort is vastly different than a Day at the MK. Just saying that these kind of options are now more attractive considering Disney's sky rocketing prices, exhausting planning process, and regimented app controlled in park experience.

I get your point…but it’s punta Cana..

Pass.
It’s like the Myrtle beach of the Caribbean

 

[eliza61nyc]

You win by providing a solid product at a good value to as many people possible.

Something they’ve made no effort at for years and bob’s defenders have supported

Guess how it’s going?

But then you once again complain that the parks are crowded

So again if the product is lousy and attendance drops you whine...

If the product is great and people go, it's crowded and you then whine again

Personally, I don't give a flying fig why the parks are empty, if I don't have to wait two hours for a ride, I'm a happy camper

 

[TheMaxRebo]

I was looking at dates in November and not only was French Quarter in the 300s, Art of Animation was in the 400s, discounted from the “standard rate”, in the 500s. That blew my mind since it’s a value resort - I get that families love the heavy Disney theming there but you could stay at AK for that price!

is that a standard room or the suites at AoA?

Either way, AoA really isn't a value anymore, or isn't priced as one for sure. It largely has internal hallways, etc. and, (at least in the past) had an elevated food court. Plus one of the better pools on property

But those prices are kinda crazy

 

[TheMaxRebo]

That's pretty common in many industries, my chemical company always puts out statements like "we had a poor year" we only brought in 800 million. Lol usually it's used as an excuse why we weren't getting raises

or "we had our best year ever ... but interest rates are rising and the outlooks is questionable, so no raises this year either"

 

[Disstevefan1]

Historically, underperforming theme parks result in labor/service/operating hour cuts, deferred maintenance, canceled projects, and rising prices.

Labor/service/operating hour cuts, deferred maintenance, canceled projects, and rising prices are going to happen anyway, we might as well enjoy the "lesser" crowds while they last.

 

[jrhwdw]

It's been slower getting into the summer, but still nothing all that unusual. Pre-pandemic/pre-value adjustments, summer was the slowest time of year for Disneyland. A lot of headliners have been averaging 30-45 minutes, which is still a little too long for me.




What's happening in Florida, and specifically Orlando, may be somewhat of an anomaly. Most parks across the country were down, attendance wise, this weekend, and that seems to make sense in the broader context of a wider economic slow down. That said, continued success in California and with the Cruise Line would point to something else... something other than the Disney brand that is specific to Florida that is playing a bigger role.





Chapek was only following Iger's plan. Iger outlaid his plan four years ago, and so far everything is still falling in line toward that plan.

They knew they were hitting the ceiling on attendance, and weren't going to be able to grow the business through attendance increases, so they set out to re-value the product and condition people to pay more for it. So far it's been working. DPEP made more money in 2022 than any year prior, even with attendance still off by 30%.

Economic conditions not withstanding, I'd expect them to keep with it. Even with attendance down right now, if revenue is still above 2019 levels, they will stick with it.

How does that work???????????????

 

[el_super]

Personally I don't care if people still go to Disney or not. I still go and enjoy it but can recognize flaws.

Their biggest flaw going into 2019 was that the place was WAY too crowded. They purposefully priced their product lower in order to fill the parks and make money off food and merchandise sales. It was the culmination of a strategy going all the way back to the Pressler days, that squeezing more utilization out of the park capacity was the only way to derive more value from the aging infrastructure. And it worked for 20 some years as people flooded the parks to eat the newest cupcakes.

But the parks were miserable experiences that requires excessive planning and strategizing.

The only solution for that, is to re-value the product. No more cheap admissions or easy access. Lower attendance back to 1990s standards, and raise the prices to compensate.

 

[el_super]

How does that work???????????????

A vast local audience with cheap Annual Passes. Most passes would be blocked over the summer, so the days wouldn't be nearly as bad. There would typically be one week in August, where the lower tier passes would be unblocked that would turn out to be one of the busiest of the year. Those were the days they were asking CMs to park at Angel Stadium.

 

[TheMaxRebo]

But then you once again complain that the parks are crowded

So again if the product is lousy and attendance drops you whine...

If the product is great and people go, it's crowded and you then whine again

Personally, I don't give a flying fig why the parks are empty, if I don't have to wait two hours for a ride, I'm a happy camper

simple really ... all Disney needs to do is add 25% more capacity to each park via additions, add a 5th gate ... slowly increase attendance to show they are growing - but keep capacity limits at the parks so they aren't too crowded - while eliminating park reservations, cut all add-ons, bring back magical express and cut all pricing by 30%

really not that hard

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

But then you once again complain that the parks are crowded

So again if the product is lousy and attendance drops you whine...

If the product is great and people go, it's crowded and you then whine again

No…you’re using the 2018 talking points…I’ve always talked about the longterm trends that take them to a very bad place.

And it’s not good for me, you or anyone.

What they always had done before this washed up Napoleon of a ceo was invest and maintain pricing that - while expensive - delivered to the vast majority a solid product that had a high return/repeat rate.

They even had programs to solidify it…some are called “Disney vacation club” and “annual passes”

What seems to be happening now through price and policy…with outside factors/economics…is more than they can tolerate are declining to invest in their product.

That’s a sacred line that management was well aware you cannot cross. But they found a new “guru”…and it’s blue ocean.
It’s as quackadoodle as Dyanetics.

 

[monothingie]

So then there is a no win situation. People will complain if the parks are packed and then turn around and complain if the parks aren't packed.

Blame poor and incompetent management. It doesn't have to be a zero sum game. Disney has the ability to expand to address many issues with guest satisfaction, but is choosing not to because it increases their operational costs.

You wonder why they sunk all that money into Next Gen, MDE, G+ etc. instead of building a new gate? Because it contributed minimally to their operational cost and served as a driver to extract more revenue from each guest.

Their competitors up the road are quickly building a new gate. Disney can't even finish a scaled back central spine renovation at EPCOT in the same amount of time. We'll see who's right.

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

simple really ... all Disney needs to do is add 25% more capacity to each park via additions, add a 5th gate ... slowly increase attendance to show they are growing - but keep capacity limits at the parks so they aren't too crowded - while eliminating park reservations, cut all add-ons, bring back magical express and cut all pricing by 30%

really not that hard

Does it really matter what room it’s for?

It’s “pop stars”

 

[Smugpugmug]

Their biggest flaw going into 2019 was that the place was WAY too crowded. They purposefully priced their product lower in order to fill the parks and make money off food and merchandise sales. It was the culmination of a strategy going all the way back to the Pressler days, that squeezing more utilization out of the park capacity was the only way to derive more value from the aging infrastructure. And it worked for 20 some years as people flooded the parks to eat the newest cupcakes.

But the parks were miserable experiences that requires excessive planning and strategizing.

The only solution for that, is to re-value the product. No more cheap admissions or easy access. Lower attendance back to 1990s standards, and raise the prices to compensate.

Totally agree about 2019 being way too crowded. I don't miss the 3-4 hour waits for FOP being a regular occurrence. I have photos from a spring break trip around then where Toy Story Mania had a 2 1/2 hour wait.

 

[mightynine]

You are correct here but what’s scary for the rat is the economy is not “down”

What happened is price hikes under the coivd shield has wrecked the budgets and credit of about 75% of the US population…
And though none of us here at the Disney luxury lawn and country club want to believe it - a big part of their customers come from that 75%…
Maybe they only go once?…but there’s always been a supply chain “circle” That regenerates from the middle class.

If somehow that’s “broken”?…the parks are in deep $h!t

…no other way to say it

This, this, this!

How many customers did WDW get from people who went coming back and telling friends and family that were on the fence that yes, it was pricey, but they felt it was worth it? What is the story coming back now?

IMO, that positive word-of-mouth was critical for Disney's success and if they've tainted that well - their work is that much harder.

 

[TheMaxRebo]

I get that. I was mainly referring to people that defend Disney no matter what they do. They could charge $50 to use the bathroom and certain diehards would defend it. I see this a lot in Disney Facebook groups I'm in. And yes, I know it's Facebook but these are people that aren't as "in the know" as folks on here.

Personally I don't care if people still go to Disney or not. I still go and enjoy it but can recognize flaws.

definitely need to go in eyes open and know how things have changed (for good and bad) and recognize it and then elect to go or not - but can't just view it as everything Disney does is amazing and never wrong a bad thing

But it can still be a great vacation and where people want to go

Just last night my oldest was commenting (related to how we went to Dollywood last year) - "Dollywood was good, and we had fun - but it isn't Disney ... just feel more comfortable there and overall have a better time" ... so even if Dollywood is cheaper/better value, doesn't mean it is the best option for any given family (just using as an example)

 

[Tha Realest]

This, this, this!

How many customers did WDW get from people who went coming back and telling friends and family that were on the fence that yes, it was pricey, but they felt it was worth it? What is the story coming back now?

IMO, that positive word-of-mouth was critical for Disney's success and if they've tainted that well - their work is that much harder.

When people ask me what they should do to plan a Walt Disney World vacation, I tell them to go to Disneyland

 

[Lilofan]

Planes are the most convenient TRANSPORTATION system…much of it used for business and family


You want to try a bit harder next time?

Fact- pay more for less - keep flying and pay for an airline ticket.

 

[mysto]

Historically, underperforming theme parks result in labor/service/operating hour cuts, deferred maintenance, canceled projects, and rising prices.

....and bonus increases.

 

[JD80]

My point is that “brand devolution” is really Disneys doing and it’s mostly due to price

These clown antics in Florida by some carpet baggers that are going no where sell ads on cable…but it doesn’t keep people away inclined to go in the first place. At least not to the level we are seeing.
And consider for every Pearl clutcher that “boycotts” it…younger/more affluent demographics may add a trip because a “stand against bigotry”

Net is zero.

Same thing as the southern Baptist boycotts…just “louder” due to networked digital now…

I don't think it's a brand issue. Kids are still watching Disney shows, wearing Disney character clothing and buying toys.

The issue has to be mostly about cost. We've been wondering for years now what that tipping point will be, and I think we hit it. The economy is in a decent place, people are spending money but they aren't at WDW.

Consumers aren't stupid. They can compare the cost of a hotel. They can compare the cost of park tickets vs. other entertainment. Disney squeezed and squeezed - they got what they wanted, lower crowds.

@wdw71fan mentioned about two things you can't do:

- How do you lower prices while maintaining consumer product confidence
- How do you lower prices while maintaining revenue streams

He's right. If Iger 2.0 wants to fix what Iger 1.0 + Chapek did he has to do it slowly over time. They are addicted to that sweet sweet G+ money and they can't get away from it now. Especially with lower attendance. They can't just lower prices because Wall Street will freak out.

Only way I can see them doing anything is just hiding all the price reductions in packages, deals and discounts along with perks and other offerings to bolster the 2x cost of accommodations. I think we'll see a lot of this start trickling in 2024 if bookings remain soft.