Is attendance really down at WDW this or…

C

CAV

Well-Known Member
Epcot81Fan said:
They are midgets standing on the shoulders of the giants who built Disney’s legacy.

The old management understood the difference between what you “can do” and what you “should do”.

Of course you CAN charge people a per ride fee on top of an unlimited ticket, but SHOULD you?

Of course you CAN cut entertainment, ride staffing, customer service and grooming standards, etc. and charge the same amount as the Disney Difference, but SHOULD you?

They think they are being clever by slaughtering the sheep when their predecessors happily sheared them over and over again….

Truly idiots.
Click to expand...
It goes back to change in priority from making magic to making money.
 
D

DisneyHead123

Well-Known Member
HauntedPirate said:
It all comes down to two things - Hubris, and arrogance. And they have them both in spades.
Click to expand...
I mean in a way I’m happy that they have not gone quite as pedal-to-the-metal on moderate and value pricing. Those do still seem like a decent value. It just seems like there was a chasm on the pricing continuum for awhile, with a big gap between the mods and the next level up, the deluxes.

I will say that I ran a few dates in later 2024 for fun to see if that’s still the case, and it does look like deluxe pricing is coming down a bit, so that there are more options in the $400 - $600 a night price range. Not that those prices are cheap, but they’re more on par with what you’d find in a major city.
 
PREMiERdrum

PREMiERdrum

Well-Known Member
Epcot81Fan said:
More succinctly said, thank you.
Click to expand...
Their conceptual shift in the hotel business has been both gradual and quite sudden.

Not too long ago the onsite hotel end of things was seen as a driver, with an expectation of breaking even or generating moderate profit... but more importantly growing the captive onsite population. This drove them to your parks and entertainment areas, eating at your restaurants and buying your merch. That's where the money was made.

Slowly beginning in the Iger era - and then accelerating rapidly post-COVID - the hotels became another channel to extract the most cash from guests as possible. Dramatically diminished benefits for onsite stays and rack rates shot through the roof have brought them here.

The correction - should they ever attempt it - would be painful in the short-term.
 
Epcot81Fan

Epcot81Fan

Well-Known Member
PREMiERdrum said:
Their conceptual shift in the hotel business has been both gradual and quite sudden.

Not too long ago the onsite hotel end of things was seen as a driver, with an expectation of breaking even or generating moderate profit... but more importantly growing the captive onsite population. This drove them to your parks and entertainment areas, eating at your restaurants and buying your merch. That's where the money was made.

Slowly beginning in the Iger era - and then accelerating rapidly post-COVID - the hotels became another channel to extract the most cash from guests as possible. Dramatically diminished benefits for onsite stays and rack rates shot through the roof have brought them here.

The correction - should they ever attempt it - would be painful in the short-term.
Click to expand...
The company is now run by “revenue management” guys and not showmen.

It is all about driving per person yield in every way possible.

Nobody is in charge of the overall experience and product, it is just 50 different department managers all looking to fleece you at every stop.

Now a day in a Disney park is like walking through the streets of Bangkok.
 
Animaniac93-98

Animaniac93-98

Well-Known Member
PREMiERdrum said:
Their conceptual shift in the hotel business has been both gradual and quite sudden.

Not too long ago the onsite hotel end of things was seen as a driver, with an expectation of breaking even or generating moderate profit... but more importantly growing the captive onsite population. This drove them to your parks and entertainment areas, eating at your restaurants and buying your merch. That's where the money was made.

Slowly beginning in the Iger era - and then accelerating rapidly post-COVID - the hotels became another channel to extract the most cash from guests as possible. Dramatically diminished benefits for onsite stays and rack rates shot through the roof have brought them here.

The correction - should they ever attempt it - would be painful in the short-term.
Click to expand...

I can't think of any effective solution to this problem besides lowering rack rates.

Maybe free dining or free Genie+ would do it? Would that even be enough with today's prices?

What you've said before suggests this isn't just an issue with the Deluxe hotels, it's even the Values too. That tells me every income bracket who might be interested is turning away.

And the longer they wait to make a decision, the more off site options open or renovate.
 
Epcot81Fan

Epcot81Fan

Well-Known Member
Animaniac93-98 said:
I can't think of any effective solution to this problem besides lowering rack rates.

Maybe free dining or free Genie+ would do it? Would that even be enough with today's prices?

What you've said before suggests this isn't just an issue with the Deluxe hotels, it's even the Values too. That tells me every income bracket who might be interested is turning away.

And the longer they wait to make a decision, the more off site options open or renovate.
Click to expand...

Except that the more people that use "free dining" dilutes and ruins the dining experience throughout the resort and the more people who use Genie+ ruins the park experience by artificially increasing stand by lines (and Genie+ return lines).

They have boxed themselves into this mess and the more they double down, the worse it will get.
 
PREMiERdrum

PREMiERdrum

Well-Known Member
Animaniac93-98 said:
I can't think of any effective solution to this problem besides lowering rack rates.
Click to expand...

IMHO, the only solution is a comprehensive rethink of the business and how it's marketed.

The resort today is operating with dramatically increased competition and in an entirely different marketing landscaped than either as first envisioned or throughout the Eisner growth era. There is no way to adequately educate consumers on 30+ resort hotels when you also have to showcase 4 theme parks, 2 water parks, and a lifestyle district.

I'd first recommend reorganizing the existing hotel portfolio into 4 categories, adding a "Signature" or "Legacy" option above the current deluxe (for the monorail loop resorts, and perhaps one or two others if they're willing to invest in). This would add clarity to what each category means, and eliminate the confusion when one standard "Deluxe Resort" room can cost nearly 3 times that of a standard room in another deluxe. Splitting into four categories creates a more marketable portfolio of comparable resort options. This would also allow a more organized planning view for what the minimum standard is for each category: AKL should at minimum have a Peoplemover or Skyliner line to the park, perhaps one that lands you on-show. OKW and SS might end up as the top of the Moderate category based on amenities, and that's okay.

With that complete, you'd need to make your resort portfolio searchable by Resort Category, Resort Area, or specific highlight features (pool with slide, walkable to parks, alternate transportation to parks, etc). This would make comparing options far easier for the consumer.

With things reorganized, you then focus on returning value to onsite stays. Increase early entry to a flat one hour daily instead of the split gate at 60, attractions and 30 as currently operating. I'm not sure if data supports a full return of Magical Express, but at least offer inclusive Mears Connect transportation as part of resort package. Give real priority to onsite resort guests in access to Genie+, however that looks after the system changes are made. Including Genie+ with Deluxe and Signature resort bookings would help directly counter Universal. Focus on returning "magical" extras for onsite guests, like awarding one family per resort daily with a golden Lightning Lane pass... things that make the stay special without really costing anything.

If they could clean up the structure and return some of the onsite benefits, they wouldn't have to cut rack rates too awful much. Good sales structures extract maximum currency from their targets, but great sales structures make the customer feel good handing in their money. The mouse used to be great at that.

Once you can redefine the "value" of staying onsite to equate benefits, not cost, you'll rebuild that base. Once occupancy returns to expectations of 95-97%, you've created the demand and scarcity to protect your pricing model.
 
HauntedPirate

HauntedPirate

Park nostalgist
Premium Member
DisneyHead123 said:
I mean in a way I’m happy that they have not gone quite as pedal-to-the-metal on moderate and value pricing. Those do still seem like a decent value. It just seems like there was a chasm on the pricing continuum for awhile, with a big gap between the mods and the next level up, the deluxes.

I will say that I ran a few dates in later 2024 for fun to see if that’s still the case, and it does look like deluxe pricing is coming down a bit, so that there are more options in the $400 - $600 a night price range. Not that those prices are cheap, but they’re more on par with what you’d find in a major city.
Click to expand...
They want to fill those deluxes with people from moderates via a “special offer!!!” sent before their vacation. Jacking up the price makes the vacationer believe they are getting some great deal.

Does anyone know the lowest non-discounted rate for a moderate these days?
 
PREMiERdrum

PREMiERdrum

Well-Known Member
It's also worth recognizing that their inclusive, dynamic pricing model has left them in a tough spot. When trying to juice low occupancy with promotional discounts, those who've already booked that resort amost always qualify for the new pricing as well. So they're stuck compromising the pricing of those already committed to gamble on attracting a few more.

A more targeted, direct promotional model would help this, but without some dramatic improvements in onsite guest experience that's not going to move the needle in fixing sub-80% occupancy.
 
Jrb1979

Jrb1979

Well-Known Member
PREMiERdrum said:
IMHO, the only solution is a comprehensive rethink of the business and how it's marketed.

The resort today is operating with dramatically increased competition and in an entirely different marketing landscaped than either as first envisioned or throughout the Eisner growth era. There is no way to adequately educate consumers on 30+ resort hotels when you also have to showcase 4 theme parks, 2 water parks, and a lifestyle district.

I'd first recommend reorganizing the existing hotel portfolio into 4 categories, adding a "Signature" or "Legacy" option above the current deluxe (for the monorail loop resorts, and perhaps one or two others if they're willing to invest in). This would add clarity to what each category means, and eliminate the confusion when one standard "Deluxe Resort" room can cost nearly 3 times that of a standard room in another deluxe. Splitting into four categories creates a more marketable portfolio of comparable resort options. This would also allow a more organized planning view for what the minimum standard is for each category: AKL should at minimum have a Peoplemover or Skyliner line to the park, perhaps one that lands you on-show. OKW and SS might end up as the top of the Moderate category based on amenities, and that's okay.

With that complete, you'd need to make your resort portfolio searchable by Resort Category, Resort Area, or specific highlight features (pool with slide, walkable to parks, alternate transportation to parks, etc). This would make comparing options far easier for the consumer.

With things reorganized, you then focus on returning value to onsite stays. Increase early entry to a flat one hour daily instead of the split gate at 60, attractions and 30 as currently operating. I'm not sure if data supports a full return of Magical Express, but at least offer inclusive Mears Connect transportation as part of resort package. Give real priority to onsite resort guests in access to Genie+, however that looks after the system changes are made. Including Genie+ with Deluxe and Signature resort bookings would help directly counter Universal. Focus on returning "magical" extras for onsite guests, like awarding one family per resort daily with a golden Lightning Lane pass... things that make the stay special without really costing anything.

If they could clean up the structure and return some of the onsite benefits, they wouldn't have to cut rack rates too awful much. Good sales structures extract maximum currency from their targets, but great sales structures make the customer feel good handing in their money. The mouse used to be great at that.

Once you can redefine the "value" of staying onsite to equate benefits, not cost, you'll rebuild that base. Once occupancy returns to expectations of 95-97%, you've created the demand and scarcity to protect your pricing model.
Click to expand...
They can't give Genie+ free to resort guests. There isn't enough capacity to do that. Really the only solution is to lower to overpriced Motel 6s.
 
D

DisneyHead123

Well-Known Member
HauntedPirate said:
They want to fill those deluxes with people from moderates via a “special offer!!!” sent before their vacation. Jacking up the price makes the vacationer believe they are getting some great deal.

Does anyone know the lowest non-discounted rate for a moderate these days?
Click to expand...
I’m usually there at peak times due to school schedules, so my view is probably biased. The last time couple of times I booked it felt like all the deluxes excepting OKW and SS were 800+ with no discounts. It’s frustrating when even a resort like Boardwalk is going for top rates. Looking at holiday season 2024 it does seem like that’s settling down a bit.
 

Register on WDWMAGIC. This sidebar will go away, and you'll see fewer ads.

Back
Top Bottom