Improved Transportation?

[garyhoov]

You know, the more I think about it, the less I want an expanded Monorail even if it made financial and logistical sense.

Monorails aren't unique anymore. I'd like to see them building a transportation system now that other people will be building 30 years from now.

I don't know about the rest of you, but the thing I like best about Disney World isn't the rides or the parades or the food. It's the sense that everything there is a little better than it is everywhere else - cleaner, more efficient, more modern, more attractively designed.

To me that's why Disney needs a cutting edge transportation system. Transportation was a huge, huge thing to Walt. Clean, efficient, cutting edge transportation isn't just a way to get people from place to place, it's a way to keep Walt's spirit alive and keep Disney World from becoming just another amusement park.

 

[AEfx]

Because of the noise factor. Supposedly. Or snob factor if you really want to dig into it.

I still find it so funny that people love to add up all these little detail costs for Monorails, but no one ever wants to think about what it takes to run a bus. All those roads have to be designed to handle all that bus traffic. Without them you could cut down substantially on the size of the roads down there. What is easier to clear out and make stable - a narrow path for a monorail, or a four lane highway. think of all that runoff. And why do Monorails HAVE to be run in the air? They can run a beam along the ground just as easilly.

The really big thing (but which would require a whole new line) is that you can now automate the whole thing. You don't NEED the drivers. And what ticket booths?

Why do people hate the monorails so much? What are people afraid of?

LMAO.

No one hates monorails.

It's just that some of us understand how business works, and some of us apparently do not:


It would cost hundreds of millions to expand the Monorail even a tiny bit.

Dinoland USA and a whole section of DCA are full of crap off-the shelf carny rides. Obviously Disney does not have large sums of money for resort development at this time aside from a scattered few E-tickets that they really have no choice but to build (i.e. Everest and Soarin').

The road infrastructure in WDW is complete, and while the busses do cost money to run, gas and drivers and the sheer volume and dynamic nature of busses are far more attractive from a business standpoint.

An expansion of the monorail just isn't going to happen. If you want to keep wishing for it, go right ahead - but people really need to stop living in (pardon the pun) Fantasyland.

AEfx

 

[niteobsrvr]

Monorails are really good for one thing - Point to Point systems. They were put in Disneyland to prove that you could have clean quiet transportation in an urban like setting.

It was an attraction at DIsneyland and is also considered one at Walt Disney World. If you start using it as a transit system to go everywhere on Disney property, you would also have to start abiding by all Federal and State Regulations regarding rail traffic. That is an expensive prospect to Disney just like the Federal and State regulations regarding bus drivers is a big expense.

Finally, in itmes of crisis management, hurricanes etc. a flexible system is much more desireable than a fixed system. I can't imagine what the evacuation of all the parks at the same time would ahve been like on Sept 11, 2001 if the only systems available were trains on fixed guideways.

 

[garyhoov]

LMAO.

No one hates monorails.

It's just that some of us understand how business works, and some of us apparently do not:


It would cost hundreds of millions to expand the Monorail even a tiny bit.

Dinoland USA and a whole section of DCA are full of crap off-the shelf carny rides. Obviously Disney does not have large sums of money for resort development at this time aside from a scattered few E-tickets that they really have no choice but to build (i.e. Everest and Soarin').

The road infrastructure in WDW is complete, and while the busses do cost money to run, gas and drivers and the sheer volume and dynamic nature of busses are far more attractive from a business standpoint.

An expansion of the monorail just isn't going to happen. If you want to keep wishing for it, go right ahead - but people really need to stop living in (pardon the pun) Fantasyland.

AEfx

I agree with everything you've said, however, you're stating how things are rather than how they should be.

How much cash did Walt Disney have when he proposed Disneyland? I agree that management seems to be leaning more and more toward the Six-Flags route. They think that's the best way to make money. I think that's a way to stay alive without thriving.

If you think about what made Walt Disney great, it wasn't what he did, but when he did it.

It wasn't that he made cartoons with sound, it's that he made cartoons with sound when no one else was.

It wasn't that he made animated feature films, it's that he made animated feature films when no one else was.

It's not that he made a clean, efficient theme-park, it's that he made a clean, efficient theme park when no-one else was.

Disney continues to produce the things that Walt created, but they've got a lot of competition now. Disney is becoming a follower rather than a leader.

That's why I see a new transportation system as a key to regaining that leader role. It fits perfectly with Walt's vision but takes it to the next level. That's also why I'm losing interest in Monorail. Everybody else is doing it now.

We need something with a "WOW!" factor. Something that no one else is doing that will symbolize Disney's renewed leadership and make people want to come see Disney World just to see that great new transportation system and the theme park that does things so well they've created that great transportation system.

 

[talonstruck]

Doesnt anybody remember the good ol days when you could ride the train in the camp ground or the nice evening rides in the open air trams from campsite to campsite in the cool floridan air and Jumping off the trams to chase armadillos at each campsite? or has everyone become to sue happy or west nile scared for disney to go back the wonders of the past. After all Walt loved trains. I know i would rather see some cool new or old transportation than some stupid time share. :sohappy: :xmas: :hammer:

 

[cloudboy]

It would cost hundreds of millions to expand the Monorail even a tiny bit.

Where the heck does this hundreds of millions cost keep coming from? Even in Las Vegas, where they are running something like 10 times what they were originally going to spend, is at 650m for their 4 mile track. And Disney already owns it's land and has good deals with their contractors. Other systems come in from $35 - $50 mil a mile.

The road system is hardly "complete". Roads are notorious for their needed upkeep. They can only handle so much traffic. And they are huge, huge wastes of space.

Monorails are really good for one thing - Point to Point systems.

And what would you have? All the parks are essentially in one line - starting at the MK, then down through Epcot, through the Studios, and then past Blizzard Beach to the Animal Kingdom.

(EDIT - Oops - hit submit too soon!)

Finally, in itmes of crisis management, hurricanes etc. a flexible system is much more desireable than a fixed system. I can't imagine what the evacuation of all the parks at the same time would ahve been like on Sept 11, 2001 if the only systems available were trains on fixed guideways.

And this is where transit shines. Just because Disney spaces their trains out on a normal day rather widely apart doesn't mean they have to be. Mass Transit is most efficient when it is carry large numbers of people at once. If they had all their trains running, they could quickly move a lot of people. Now on 9/11 I am not sure, since I would imagine that the monorail itself would be a suspected target.

Monorails aren't rocket science. They are relatively simple - it really is nothing more than a bus on a concrete beam. Yes it is more difficult than that, but it doesn't require teh tight tollerances of rail, it uses standard rubber tires, it uses typical concrete forms. The computer control isn't a necessity - it's just a nice option that you can't even use in busses.

 

[cloudboy]

Actually, I should correct myself on that. Alweg-style monorails (the ones that ride on top of the beam, using rubber tires) are essentially busses.

 

[wannab@dis]

no one ever wants to think about what it takes to run a bus. All those roads have to be designed to handle all that bus traffic. Without them you could cut down substantially on the size of the roads down there. What is easier to clear out and make stable - a narrow path for a monorail, or a four lane highway

I would have to disagree with these points. First, the roads are designed by size and load. Both are necessary whether WDW used busses or not. They still have to be able to handle the multitude of tour busses and monster RV's that are everywhere! Second, they would still need the 4 lane (actually more in peak) highways just to handle the normal traffic.

Moving on...
Would I like to see a new monorail or PRT system? Sure, it would be awesome. Love the idea of either one. Would it be cost worthy (even factorying in the WOW factor and the leading edge factor)? I don't know, but I have to suspect that no, it wouldn't.

 

[Invero]

Doesnt anybody remember the good ol days when you could ride the train in the camp ground or the nice evening rides in the open air trams from campsite to campsite in the cool floridan air and Jumping off the trams to chase armadillos at each campsite? or has everyone become to sue happy or west nile scared for disney to go back the wonders of the past. After all Walt loved trains. I know i would rather see some cool new or old transportation than some stupid time share. :sohappy: :xmas: :hammer:

It's a shame they had to get rid of the train and the tram inside Fort Wilderness. However, it became a safety hazard for guests, since they would jump on/off the tram without waiting for it to stop. That's really why they went to buses, and also why the theme parks are investigating buses instead of trams.

 

[Invero]

Where the heck does this hundreds of millions cost keep coming from? Even in Las Vegas, where they are running something like 10 times what they were originally going to spend, is at 650m for their 4 mile track. And Disney already owns it's land and has good deals with their contractors. Other systems come in from $35 - $50 mil a mile.

I want to see what system you're coming up with that has a $50m per mile cost. The only one that comes even close is the Malaysia system, and that is *ONLY* because of dirt cheap labor. Construction costs are just not as cheap as they used to be, especially here in the states.

Perhaps you're referring to the homemade monorail system that guy put in the back of his yard?

And this is where transit shines. Just because Disney spaces their trains out on a normal day rather widely apart doesn't mean they have to be. Mass Transit is most efficient when it is carry large numbers of people at once. If they had all their trains running, they could quickly move a lot of people. Now on 9/11 I am not sure, since I would imagine that the monorail itself would be a suspected target.

Not quite. On a typical day, there will be 3 trains running on Express... 4 trains during peak times. 4 trains is the MAXIMUM that can be put on that beam. Any more than that, and you compromise efficiency, and it actually takes longer because trains have to wait at stations.

Now, with 3 trains, trains are in the station for 90 seconds, and the next train is typically 180 seconds away. With 4 trains, target dwell time becomes 60 seconds, and the next train is holding outside the station, and is only 90-120 seconds away. It cannot arrive any sooner, due to safety and spacing requirements - Trains cannot run in the same zone. Unless you have super skilled drivers at the helm, and super quick loaders at the stations, getting those trains out in 60 seconds, all trains WILL have to hold at primary hold points, and sometimes even secondary hold points. This compromises efficiency. Because guests will take thier time getting into the train, and other issues that arise, most trains stay in the station a good 15-30 seconds longer than they are supposed to and there is nothing anyone can do about that.

Monorails aren't rocket science. They are relatively simple - it really is nothing more than a bus on a concrete beam. Yes it is more difficult than that, but it doesn't require teh tight tollerances of rail, it uses standard rubber tires, it uses typical concrete forms. The computer control isn't a necessity - it's just a nice option that you can't even use in busses.

Well... no, monorails aren't rocket science, but they're a lot more complex than you think they are. They do not use standard tires, they do not use typical concrete forms, and yeah, the computer is about as neccessary as a seat belt in the car. You can drive without it, but you really shouldn't.

 

[slappy magoo]

I think they should just give us all SegWay People Movers for the duration of our stays. Sure they're 3 grand each multiplied by the maximum amount of people in the resorts and parks but they'd be so COOL!

Or how about a roller coaster that connected all 4 parks so getting from one park to another really would be a ride?

I think everyone would love the imagry of all these different monorails whizzing around the entire WDW complex (heck, it'd be much easier to choose a hotel if you knew you were a monorail away from a different one with access to their restaurants and recreation). at the very least, it'd be nice if all the theme parks were connected, But as has been said prior, I'd rather see that money and energy go into keeping the parks themselves ahead of the curve.

I know Disney is having a pretty good year, and the years that they consider "flat" still involves a profit any of us would be happy to call our own. But I think they'd have to have some extraordinarily banner years to consider something as involved as extending the monorail system.

 

[Disneyland1970]

I am not trying to add fuel to the fire, but how come the cost is so $$$ per mile, also how much is the cost of a normal 2 lane road per mile(new construction over unimproved land), including the bus to go on it. If you factor in the cost of upkeep and maintenace of paved roads and the cost of fuel...... I see how the cost may be more up front, but how about about over a 20 year life span of a monorail??? Also, I have also heard that WDW produces its own electricity, is this true??? Helps out with operation cost on day to day basis of monorail??

As someone also stated, do the tracks for the monorail have to be so high??
lower to ground should help with costs, in theory.

I feel that a monorail to AK especially, would help this park out and the AKL.

You would think the Fed Govt would give some sort of tax credit for building a GREEN transportation system like a Monorail expansion.

Thanks!

 

[Invero]

Also, I have also heard that WDW produces its own electricity, is this true??? Helps out with operation cost on day to day basis of monorail??

Disney has a small powerplant in the back of the MK that at one time was capable of powering the MK area, however, all power is now outsourced through Progress Energy.

As someone also stated, do the tracks for the monorail have to be so high?? lower to ground should help with costs, in theory.

Lowering them really won't decrease the price too much. They do have to be high up, to allow for traffic to pass underneath as needed.

 

[cloudboy]

I think everyone would love the imagry of all these different monorails whizzing around the entire WDW complex

They do not use standard tires, they do not use typical concrete forms, and yeah, the computer is about as neccessary as a seat belt in the car. You can drive without it, but you really shouldn't.

I want to see what system you're coming up with that has a $50m per mile cost. The only one that comes even close is the Malaysia system, and that is *ONLY* because of dirt cheap labor. Construction costs are just not as cheap as they used to be, especially here in the states.

Check out this post. It has some links to sites about Monorail costs. In fact that whole (very long!) thread has a lot of these same questions in it. http://forums.wdwmagic.com/showpost.php?p=593017&postcount=106

Not quite. On a typical day, there will be 3 trains running on Express... 4 trains during peak times. 4 trains is the MAXIMUM that can be put on that beam. Any more than that, and you compromise efficiency, and it actually takes longer because trains have to wait at stations.

This is all based upon operations and system design. It depends upon the capacity of the vehicles as well as the length. It also depends upon how closely they place the blocks. Disney is very conservative with their designs - much more than busses normally are. Of course, that is also a big factor in Monorail safety, so it needs attention. You can't just go on Disney's current system - it's an old design that was not intended for large volumes. You have to look at current design standards.

They do not use standard tires, they do not use typical concrete forms, and yeah, the computer is about as neccessary as a seat belt in the car. You can drive without it, but you really shouldn't.

They use standard truck tires. 445/65R22.5 Michelin XTE2 46.6" diameter , 17.8" wide truck tires. Same ones used on Dump Trucks and the like. AS far as concrete forms, yes, they can be prebuilt and installed on site. And as far as the computer goes, the vehicle moves forward, stops, moves backwards. Yes, the computer systems increases the safety aspect by automating the blocks, but a simple throttle and brake control could do the trick with a simple block lighting scheme.

Personally, however, I thinkk they need to go the other way. I think they could totally automate the new system. Go driverless.

I think everyone would love the imagry of all these different monorails whizzing around the entire WDW complex

You'd never put monorails directly to all the resorts. There are not enough people from one resort at one time to justify a large system like that. You would have one main trunk going from the MAgic Kingdom to Epcot, to Studios, to Animal Kingdom, then maybe a spur to Downtown Disney. The hotels would have a people mover or tram or bus to the closest park (most parks are really close to one park or another) and from ther you would get on the monorail.

Lowering them really won't decrease the price too much. They do have to be high up, to allow for traffic to pass underneath as needed.

It does and it doesn't. The savings come from not having to built the footings so large (the piers take up weight, and you have less torque effect form the hieght). It is also a matter of safety. You don't have to have the whole monorail line at a height to go over the roads - Monorails are particularly good for inclines. In theory you could have the road go over the monorail, but that is not a great idea in Florida.

I am not trying to add fuel to the fire, but how come the cost is so $$$ per mile, also how much is the cost of a normal 2 lane road per mile(new construction over unimproved land), including the bus to go on it.

Roads are a big item. We take them for granted. Building a road is not cheap or easy for a large traffic load. You have to claer a large amount of land in a straight line, you have to fill it in, find a way to handle the runoff, put down a good base and pave it. A lot of times they use concrete sections which use as much as the monorail beam. The problem is that roads tend to need more upkeep because of the varying traffic and that they acutally see more traffic (many smaller vehicles). But how much depends an awful lot on the quality of the original work and the weather. I believe that a monorail vehicle lifespan is about 3 times that of a bus, but you would have to dig through that thread above for the actual figure. The big issue with the roads is that there needs to be a lot of work to deal with runoff as well as ramps and breakdown lanes and such. And smaller vehicles means more space is needed for the same number of passengers.

True, roads are used by other vehicles as well. But Disney puts a number of busses on their roads, and this adds up to a lot of lane miles. Can't do much about what is there now, but it's growth that is going to be a factor. Not to mention how damaging those roads are to the environment, and the effects of the bus pollution.