Imagineer Tom Fitzgerald takes over the creative direction of Epcot

[The Empress Lilly]

Not singling out your post, but it reminds me of a question I have for the community... what exactly would people want/expect to see in Innoventions? I see it knocked often here, but I'm not sure exactly what people are looking for. To be honest, I don't remember Communicore all that well.

I understand wanting to see the characters out of Epcot and Innoventions is ground zero for that. But otherwise, Innoventions seems pretty reasonable to me. The stuff in West is somewhat kid oriented, but decent for what they are; meanwhile, the IBM Think exhibit goes along with the ideals of classic Epcot. In East, Sum of All Thrills is IMHO quite enjoyable and a completely underrated (and not well known) gem.

I'm not saying I love Innoventions, but it never really struck me as a problem either. Just curious as to what others think.

I don't mind a few characters in InnoVentions. Mickey in front of a SSE mural is an addition, not a replacement. I do have issues with Nemo and Ellen and Joe Carioca. (Who wants his kid to grow up the dumbo who thinks the most pressing oceanic issue is a missing clowfish?)

[blahblah: on]
Although characters have a dynamic of their own. You add one, just one mouse. And people complain the lines are too long. So you add more. People now think of EPCOT as the toon park. So they flock there with their princesses. They now complan that there are no rides for them. So you replace your rides with kiddie cartoon rides. You now attract bronies and freaks who flood the internet and the park and chase away the normal people. You are left with the mindless Wall E entertain-me crowd, who complain they have to drive their SUV ECV for more than eighty feet between feeding throughs so you have to install food stalls and trucks everywhere. And so your inspiring park has gone down the drain, and it all started with a mouse.
[blahblah: off]


What I would want in InnoVentions are exhibits that are related to the themes of the pavilions. Say an energy exchange, and a space exhibit. InnoVentions is for hands-on experiences of EPCOT's themes, to explore subjects closer. Everybody loves seeing dinosaurs every time, but nobody needs to read a long explanation about oil shales every time. A pretty design would help too, the place feels dark and foreboding now. The CommuniCore buildings were long open walkways with fun exhibits a few feet elow you, so you had a nice airconditioned stroll and could see from above if anything caught your eye. InnoVentions are two factory halls, imaginationless, the same as every other congress center/soundstage/empty factory in the country. Who would ever just linger there?

 

[doctornick]

It's not splitting hairs, in the beginning it was very intentional to keep them out.

Sure, that's true. But it's also true that it was only a few years into the existence of the park that actual Disney characters (not ones made specifically for Epcot) were present. That includes much of the time that people consider the "golden years" of Epcot.

 

[The Empress Lilly]

In all seriousness, I've always felt that in WS you ought to have historical personages from the various countries out and about. There are plenty of non-controversial, famous people from each country that if they were walking about in appropriate period garb, people would stop, get pictures with them, and it would be a different sub-subset of autographs than just the traditional characters. "Mom, I need to get Emperor Qianlong's autograph before we go home!" You could even augment the famous actual historical figures with famous folk from literature from a few countries (Sherlock Holmes, say). Plus, you could have a few generalized iconic folk (samurai in Japan, etc.) out and about. If done right, it could work really well. This might be a terrible idea, but I've always kind of liked it.

That woud be so good. So terrific. It would completely uplift the EPCOT experience, draw an entirely different crowd. Best idea ever.

 

[Beholder]

Walk arounds by the fab five is different than having an attraction built around or in someway themed to them. Having Pixar or any other current character is also unnecessary and intrusive. Having the occasional character for synergy or some "special" occasion is one thing, but placing an attraction or a character overlay on an existing attraction is going to far. Not everything has to have some movie or product (excluding sponsors) tie in. The very absence of Disney characters was one of the things that made EPCOT special. Leave them out.

Just my opinion.

 

[Kman101]

Yes. I personally don't visit Gran Fiesta, Ellen or Nemo. Once was more than enough. And I'd rather them not shoehorn Frozen into Maelstrom and throw the Rat's ride into France. That won't solve Epcot's problems.

I love George's idea as well. Very good idea.

 

[The Empress Lilly]

Walk arounds by the fab five is different than having an attraction built around or in someway themed to them. Having Pixar or any other current character is also unnecessary and intrusive. Having the occasional character for synergy or some "special" occasion is one thing, but placing an attraction or a character overlay on an existing attraction is going to far. Not everything has to have some movie or product (excluding sponsors) tie in. The very absence of Disney characters was one of the things that made EPCOT special. Leave them out.

Just my opinion.

Seeing toons in EPCOT makes me feel the way I would feel when suddenly seeing Donald and Daisy wave at me from inside the spot-billed duck enclosure at DAK. It is just an entirely different experience, entirely different park philosophy.

 

[FigmentJedi]

Personally, I don't mind Gran Fiesta that much because Three Caballeros's third act was pretty much the exact same thing as El Rio del Tiempo: A surreal travelogue through a live-action Mexico featuring a Mary Blair inspired interlude about a Mexican holiday (the Posadas Christmas tradition in the film, Dia de los Muertos in the ride).

 

[BoarderPhreak]

There's nothing wrong with Disney characters at Epcot. Daisy greeting kids at the entrance. Donald in a Mexican outfit doing the same over in, you guessed it - Mexico. Or even topiaries during the F&GF.

What IS crap is the "characterification" of things like El Rio del Tiempo, nay, "The Three Caballeros." A needless, nonsensical refurb. What was once a (debatably) interesting look at the culture that the country pavilion represented... Has turned into a silly, uninspired ride. A.k.a. the "dumbing down" of Epcot.

 

[sshindel]

I know that this might mark me as a traitor to the cause for Epcot, but it's just one semi-obsessed person's opinion. Feel free to cast the stones at me.
I don't mind a few costume characters in Epcot. I'd prefer them contained to places off the beaten path, Character Spot, Akershus (though I would prefer it as a breakfast only endeavor, switching back over to traditional Norwegian at lunch/dinner), and a few spots in WS (off to the side like the Donald M&G in Mexico) in country-appropriate garb. And as @Tahu just mentioned above, I actually accept them in Mexico, but it also could be that Three Caballeros is one of my favorite films, and it does work well with the context of that film.
I think that having characters in WS is probably a better and less invasive method to engage the children than putting Perry the Platypus and Duffy all over the place.
I do not want them all over the attractions in Future World. I want them the hell out of Seabase Alpha.
I'd be happy to accept the characters as long as they would transition the park back to it's initial intent. If they get Future World back to it's initial mission, fix the attractions to be in line with the core values that the original park was intended to have, then having a few characters there will be less than nothing to me. Having Mickey Mouse there to greet people, in his contained little Character Spot, is totally fine, as long as the rest of Future World in spot on. It will not bother me one iota.

 

[sshindel]

Not to add to the fire, but there's so much here about "bringing back." Doesn't anyone think about totally redoing and going forward? You don't need Horizons or WOL back - you miss them because nothing filled their place. I can understand the desire to have Figment/Dreamfinder brought back to their Wonder Years, but simply redoing the pavilions to bring them back to their 80s glory will solve nothing.

Those that dump on Nemo and Friends, I don't understand. The point of Epcot is to get kids interested in the various aspects of the world around them. Nemo brings the kids in, and then they see a massive aquarium, now they're interest in fish. In my opinion (however humble it may be), Nemo has not damaged the point of The Seas pavilion.

Not to put too fine a point on it, but kids love aquariums without Nemo all the time. The Shedd Aquarium is one of my kids favorite places to visit. The Living Seas was about ocean exploration. A Seabase, to work and study a portion of our own planet that we know next to nothing about. It showed so much more. Now, all of that is removed and replaced with a ride that is less-than-mindless. It requires absolutely 0 thinking. It does not engage a child's mind, imagination, or inquisitive spirit. It just sings them a song. It's the antithesis of what the original Epcot was.
And I'll say this. I don't want them to just go and bring back the original attractions. Far from it. I know it might be another heretical statement from me, but I wouldn't care if Figment was taken away from Imagination, as long as the replacement fulfilled the same spirit and inspired the same connection and feelings as the original attraction did. Now, I think that Figment could absolutely be used well to do that, giving folks the connection to the beloved little dragon while moving the pavilion forward, but if they go a different direction, as long as it is well done, and invokes the same spirit as the original, I'll not be bringing pitchforks with me on my next visit.
Same with Horizons. I loved that attraction more than any other (save my beloved Tiki Room), but I don't want them to just dust off the original and shove it out there. I want something completely new, that speaks in the same voice and shares the same ideals as the original.
And it all needs to work together as one cohesive Future World.

All of this is why I've got a great bit of skepticism about what may or may not be happening here at Epcot. Future World needs to be nearly completely redone. It's too many dollars to work with in order to make that happen.

 

[doctornick]

I actually think that adding Nemo to the Seas wasn't necessarily a bad idea -- but the execution is the problem. Nemo and company are real fish in the real world, so having them be a part of a pavillion on underwater life isn't intrinsically bad (contract to previous plans to have a Little Mermaid overlay for the Living Seas).

But what they should have done is have Nemo and friends welcome you to the underwater world. They could be your "hosts" in showing you some of the wonders of the oceans and sea life. Mr. Ray could provide some teaching on the layers of the ocean and specific scientific elements. Nemo could provide some wide eyed optimism and excitement. Dory would provide some comic relief. That would be a good use of characters to compliment the Living Seas edutainment mission. Instead, we get some lame retelling of the plotline of the movie (or did Nemo simply get lost again?).

FWIW, I think the original pre-show movie and ride were actually kinda boring for the Seas. It was certainly an attraction that needed an update/change.

 

[Matt_Black]

Not to put too fine a point on it, but kids love aquariums without Nemo all the time. The Shedd Aquarium is one of my kids favorite places to visit. The Living Seas was about ocean exploration. A Seabase, to work and study a portion of our own planet that we know next to nothing about. It showed so much more. Now, all of that is removed and replaced with a ride that is less-than-mindless. It requires absolutely 0 thinking. It does not engage a child's mind, imagination, or inquisitive spirit. It just sings them a song. It's the antithesis of what the original Epcot was.
And I'll say this. I don't want them to just go and bring back the original attractions. Far from it. I know it might be another heretical statement from me, but I wouldn't care if Figment was taken away from Imagination, as long as the replacement fulfilled the same spirit and inspired the same connection and feelings as the original attraction did. Now, I think that Figment could absolutely be used well to do that, giving folks the connection to the beloved little dragon while moving the pavilion forward, but if they go a different direction, as long as it is well done, and invokes the same spirit as the original, I'll not be bringing pitchforks with me on my next visit.
Same with Horizons. I loved that attraction more than any other (save my beloved Tiki Room), but I don't want them to just dust off the original and shove it out there. I want something completely new, that speaks in the same voice and shares the same ideals as the original.
And it all needs to work together as one cohesive Future World.

All of this is why I've got a great bit of skepticism about what may or may not be happening here at Epcot. Future World needs to be nearly completely redone. It's too many dollars to work with in order to make that happen.

Say what you want, but the ride is a much more enjoyable way of getting to the aquariums than the old elevator. *snooze*

 

[sshindel]

Say what you want, but the ride is a much more enjoyable way of getting to the aquariums than the old elevator. *snooze*

I travel everywhere by hydrolator!

 

[LorangeJuice]

Not to add to the fire, but there's so much here about "bringing back." Doesn't anyone think about totally redoing and going forward? You don't need Horizons or WOL back - you miss them because nothing filled their place. I can understand the desire to have Figment/Dreamfinder brought back to their Wonder Years, but simply redoing the pavilions to bring them back to their 80s glory will solve nothing.

Those that dump on Nemo and Friends, I don't understand. The point of Epcot is to get kids interested in the various aspects of the world around them. Nemo brings the kids in, and then they see a massive aquarium, now they're interest in fish. In my opinion (however humble it may be), Nemo has not damaged the point of The Seas pavilion.

There are plenty of places I could bring my kids if I wanted them to be interested in fish. When I was a kid, I walked out of the Living Seas knowing how oceans were formed and inspired to imagine how man's relationship with the ocean and its creatures would develop over time into the future and how I might be a part of that. That never happened at Ocean World, which was right in my backyard, nor at Miami Seaquarium.

Learning...history...visions of future living...inspiration. See a pattern here? That is exactly why you hear calls for Seabase Alpha, WoM, Horizons, etc. to return. I think most misconstrue this to mean the actual structure and ride turn-for-turn and set-for-set. No. We want the original vision of EPCOT Center back. I personally want a future living pavilion to come back. This is Future World we are talking about here...not the Present World Around Us World. The point of EPCOT is to inspire all of its visitors, not just kids, to shape our future!

I seriously don't mean to pick on you individually or rant, but I'm not going to feel bad about wanting one section of one park in this vast resort area to stick with its original theme! I don't know what else to say. I personally would like to see the characters go but not because I'm living in the past. It's because I can't see a way for characters to contribute to my suspension of disbelief that I am living in the future. That's it. Nothing emotional or nostalgic about it. Cartoon characters rip me right out from the belief that I am in the future.

 

[Bocabear]

The original Living Seas was absolutely brilliant... you learned how the Seas were born, then imagined a world in the future with a working Sea Base...transported under the sea, took a sea cab and then viewed the spectacular aquariums before taking your hydrolator back to the surface... Say what you will about this pavilion, but it was transportive and spectacular in it's original form. YES! it could have been updated with a new preshow that set up the same premise of traveling under the Sea to a Seabase... I always saw kids deeply engaged and excited about being there... then years later, so updates, the Sea Cabs turned off... The problems were never the bones of the pavilion...and it never needed NEMO to make it relevant...that was just a cheap easy way to attract attention. Do you think one child now comes out of that pavilion knowing how the seas were formed? knowing anything about the ocean other than "oooh pretty fish!"?
Ellen's overlay is dated and silly, but you still learn about how fossil fuels were formed and that there are other forms of energy yet to be explored... not so with the Seas....

 

[Lucky]

In all seriousness, I've always felt that in WS you ought to have historical personages from the various countries out and about. There are plenty of non-controversial, famous people from each country that if they were walking about in appropriate period garb, people would stop, get pictures with them, and it would be a different sub-subset of autographs than just the traditional characters. "Mom, I need to get Emperor Qianlong's autograph before we go home!" You could even augment the famous actual historical figures with famous folk from literature from a few countries (Sherlock Holmes, say). Plus, you could have a few generalized iconic folk (samurai in Japan, etc.) out and about. If done right, it could work really well. This might be a terrible idea, but I've always kind of liked it.

Like this?

 

[Donfan]

Like this?

View attachment 52135

I would hope Disney could do better than that^!

 

[PREMiERdrum]

I would hope Disney could do better than that^!

Have you seen the "test" dino costume at AK???

 

[sshindel]

Have you seen the "test" dino costume at AK???

Sure, but wasn't that a 3rd party? A test of external (to Disney) actor(s) to see how well it worked?

 

[tl77]

Not singling out your post, but it reminds me of a question I have for the community... what exactly would people want/expect to see in Innoventions? I see it knocked often here, but I'm not sure exactly what people are looking for. To be honest, I don't remember Communicore all that well.

I understand wanting to see the characters out of Epcot and Innoventions is ground zero for that. But otherwise, Innoventions seems pretty reasonable to me. The stuff in West is somewhat kid oriented, but decent for what they are; meanwhile, the IBM Think exhibit goes along with the ideals of classic Epcot. In East, Sum of All Thrills is IMHO quite enjoyable and a completely underrated (and not well known) gem.

I'm not saying I love Innoventions, but it never really struck me as a problem either. Just curious as to what others think.

Honestly I'd like to see anything in there, the M&G and current stuff is fine with me, but the buildings are huge and have sat half empty for years. The original Commincores had shops and restaurants like they do now, but also had a ton of multi media games, and a backstage show on how the various computer systems through out Epcot functioned