If this is not a blantant money grab, I don't know what is.....

[monothingie]

Pretty sure the indoor for rise only holds about 40 minutes - the rest is a “massive messy outdoor queue”

Rise has a themed outdoor queue that can hold a lot of people within the confines of the attraction. Guardians does not have any of that.

Well there are 2 solutions. The historic way, which is to let people join the line until park closing, which is how it works at the vast majority of attractions in Disney parks, but if there is a reason you don’t want to do that, you can close the line at another posted time, like 1 hour prior to park closing.

Would the same apply to individual lightning lane return times? LOGISTICALLY, IT DOESN’T WORK AND IT WOULD BE A MASSIVE NEGATIVE FOR GUEST SATISFACTION NOT TO BE ABLE TO RIDE THE MOST POPULAR ATTRACTION AT THE PARK. THEY DECIDED TO CLOSE IT EARLY AND HAVE IT OPERATE LESS HOURS DURING THE DAY.

Edit- Don’t know why my iPhone capitalized the entire last section, but I’m too lazy to rewrite it.

 

[thomas998]

Arg.......
Can you imagine how crowded the pathways would be if they did this to all rides.......
It's already getting hard to move in many places.

make the paths more crowded but invite more people into air conditioned shops and restaurants to get away from those annoying crowds... and well... while your there, you might as well buy something.

 

[TrainsOfDisney]

Rise has a themed outdoor queue that can hold a lot of people within the confines of the attraction. Guardians does not have any of that.

Themed is a bit of a stretch, it’s a bunch of switchbacks with some rock work to look at. That full outdoor queue is quite long.

Would the same apply to individual lightning lane return times? LOGISTICALLY, IT DOESN’T WORK AND IT WOULD BE A MASSIVE NEGATIVE FOR GUEST SATISFACTION NOT TO BE ABLE TO RIDE THE MOST POPULAR ATTRACTION AT THE PARK. THEY DECIDED TO CLOSE IT EARLY AND HAVE IT OPERATE LESS HOURS DURING THE DAY.

I’m not sure I follow on this one…. Ideally they would operate it the same as all of the other attractions - meaning you can join the line until the park close time.

If there is a reason that won’t work for this attraction, they can have a posted closing time that is different from the park times.

 

[flynnibus]

In my mind, as a meta, not having people wasting time waiting in line, not being able to use there time efficiently should be avoided where ever possible. I understand the concept of demand regulating the line wait time, but my idea of ideal efficiency is no wasted wait times at all, which a VQ provides.

Should be clear here… vq in this conversation has been based in what disney has done now. It is not the only variation of virtual queues possible. Right now the big piece we are talking about is 1 use per day.

Obviously you can prioritize other things and trade off lots of options in a different system.

Like they could allow re rides but add other balancing factors like not allowing back to back… or total limits… rationing how many you have in a park entirely, etc.

I get what you are saying about no dead time in lines…. But actually you do want that kind of time.

Ever hear people poo on a park because they say they did everything they wanted… and had nothing left to interest them? How long it takes to get through attractions is an important consideration for the park. You don’t want patrons actually consuming at maximum efficiency… because that means you need that much more stuff (and expenses!) to keep them occupied.

So you can’t take this to optimal efficiency - but you need to balance attraction count, customer ride count, and customer satisfaction.

There is also a negative effect on satisfaction when you take away investment from the customer. Any GenX person can experience that with arcade games. Playing a game with zero quarters needed will not keep you as engaged or thrilled as when you had to pay for it with your limited quarters.

If you could ride something with basically zero anticipation or tradeoff of investment… you will actually hinder your enjoyment within a short amount of time/cycles.

Disney’s vq does a great job of avoiding a runaway condition… but I would still argue it should be used sparingly.

In hindsight… imagine if disney rides never had themed queues or preshows… imagine how that alter the ride experience we have now…. If disney wasn’t trying to make waits more tolerable because of how long they were… these things wouldn’t have come to be…

 

[flynnibus]

make the paths more crowded but invite more people into air conditioned shops and restaurants to get away from those annoying crowds... and well... while your there, you might as well buy something.

Except those shoos and restaurants cost a lot more money… and people have a finite appetite for such things. It’s not something you can just keep scaling up… people don’t keep eating more because you opened two more restaurants

 

[flynnibus]

For most people, waiting in line for 4 hours is not a viable choice. And that line is never going to be 30 minutes. So a choice without a good option is not a real choice, and the same people would be back here hollering about nonsense and conspiracies. And no, Disney is not a government; they have no obligation to offer choice.

Or they could just do what they do already… offer a queue filled with people with ‘reservations’ and a standby queue

No reason the reservation queue has to be paid…

Today when its VQ… they go all VQ… taking control away from guests and that’s the kind of frustration you see here

 

[UNCgolf]

Except those shoos and restaurants cost a lot more money… and people have a finite appetite for such things. It’s not something you can just keep scaling up… people don’t keep eating more because you opened two more restaurants

Exactly. And either staffing/operational costs would skyrocket because of all the additional dining and shopping capacity, or the lines would move from attractions to food/merchandise (at least to an extent) because people wouldn't have anything else to do.

Instead of waiting 30-45 minutes to board a ride, you might be waiting 30-45 minutes to order a QS burger.

 

[JMcMahonEsq]

Should be clear here… vq in this conversation has been based in what disney has done now. It is not the only variation of virtual queues possible. Right now the big piece we are talking about is 1 use per day.

Obviously you can prioritize other things and trade off lots of options in a different system.

Like they could allow re rides but add other balancing factors like not allowing back to back… or total limits… rationing how many you have in a park entirely, etc.

I get what you are saying about no dead time in lines…. But actually you do want that kind of time.

Ever hear people poo on a park because they say they did everything they wanted… and had nothing left to interest them? How long it takes to get through attractions is an important consideration for the park. You don’t want patrons actually consuming at maximum efficiency… because that means you need that much more stuff (and expenses!) to keep them occupied.

So you can’t take this to optimal efficiency - but you need to balance attraction count, customer ride count, and customer satisfaction.

There is also a negative effect on satisfaction when you take away investment from the customer. Any GenX person can experience that with arcade games. Playing a game with zero quarters needed will not keep you as engaged or thrilled as when you had to pay for it with your limited quarters.

If you could ride something with basically zero anticipation or tradeoff of investment… you will actually hinder your enjoyment within a short amount of time/cycles.

Disney’s vq does a great job of avoiding a runaway condition… but I would still argue it should be used sparingly.

In hindsight… imagine if disney rides never had themed queues or preshows… imagine how that alter the ride experience we have now…. If disney wasn’t trying to make waits more tolerable because of how long they were… these things wouldn’t have come to be…

Totally agree there could be tweaks to a VQ system. Some type of timing window between your first ride and getting back in line, or a time restriction like after a certain time, or if a certain amount of VQ are available after a certain time, re-rides are allowed. I should also clarify that while i think VQ will be and should be the meta for rides, perhaps I should have clarified that as being your for your more popular/headliner type rides. What people stuck in the past here might call E ticket rides. I can see both the lack of need, and the benefits of having rides like small world/little mermaid/nemo, ect., rides with historically lower wait times not having a virtual que, both to save bandwidth and to give more things to do with the free time you're introducing with the VQ's. I agree it's a balance, and on whole I subjectively like the balance without waiting in lines, and objectively, like to maximize the chance of everyone being assured of the chance to ride a headliner once, even if that comes at the detriment to people who want to ride it multiple times.

As to your second point, i fully admit I don't go to, or care about any other parks than Disney. From the people i have talked with about Disney i don't think i have ever heard the complaint they ran out of things to do, unless they were at Disney against their will, and didn't really have an interest in the offerings to begin with.

The only points i think we disagree on is the 1) the arcade argument. Video games have almost totally transformed from arcade based entertainment to home and portable play. I don't think anyone would argue they enjoyed pay to play type scenarios, or aren't as engaged playing mario kart, zelda, ect., when they don't have to put quarters in.

the second disagreement is about never having themed ques. I don't know if we can play the hindsight game of going back in time and thinking about design theories based around tech that didn't exist back then. However It seems like the rides that WDW has chosen to use VQ with, Guardians, Rise, Tron each have pretty well developed themed pre-shows. Though to be fair, i can't say their design contemplated the use of VQ, or not. I don't think the VQ is going to take that incentive away, as your still going to want to manage throughput and capacity. A well themed pre-show allows you to have more people actively engaged in your ride, then just your loading/offloading capacity. I know personally i view my wait for a ride as being over once i enter the pre-show, so a well themed pre-show experience allows people to think their overall wait was shorter, AND that the overal ride experience was longer.

 

[JMcMahonEsq]

How do you manage at Universal where standby is the norm for most. Unless you pay a high price or stay at top hotel.

Why would I manage/care what happens at Universal? If I ever end up going, i would stay at the top level hotel and get max pass, the same way I stay at deluxe resorts at WDW.

But more fundamentally i don't manage and don't care about Universal. I am a Disney fan, on a Disney forum board. That question is irrelevant and just really stupid for any type of discussion here. Its like asking a Yankee fan how they manage at Fenway Park with the small seats and lack of luxury offerings. They don't care, because they don't care about what happens at Fenway, or what happens Tampa bay. They also don't care what the patriots do at their home games, because they are neither football fans, nor Patriot fans.

WDW with its size, attendance figure, scale, and operating requirements can't be compared to six flags great adventure, or hershey park.

 

[Andrew25]

I have no issues w/ virtual queues, heck I wish every park had a Tapu-Tapu style system that can cap how long you wait in a physical queue.

I have major issues with limiting guests to only 1 ride per day, especially on those slower days where you send out empty trains in the morning and evening.

As for Disney not wanting to run the ride longer than park operating hours... how different is this from FoP or RNRC? I usually like hitting up FoP a few minutes before park close and I usually don't exit the building until ~45 minutes after entering. GOTG has way higher capacity than it... so what is Disney worried about? Not to make it a competition here, but Universal is consistently operating Hagrid's an hour+ past close... is this just a cost savings measure from WDW?

 

[JMcMahonEsq]

I have no issues w/ virtual queues, heck I wish every park had a Tapu-Tapu style system that can cap how long you wait in a physical queue.

I have major issues with limiting guests to only 1 ride per day, especially on those slower days where you send out empty trains in the morning and evening.

As for Disney not wanting to run the ride longer than park operating hours... how different is this from FoP or RNRC? I usually like hitting up FoP a few minutes before park close and I usually don't exit the building until ~45 minutes after entering. GOTG has way higher capacity than it... so what is Disney worried about? Not to make it a competition here, but Universal is consistently operating Hagrid's an hour+ past close... is this just a cost savings measure from WDW?

In general, I hate the idea of a solution being some arbitrary idea of just running certain rides, for some uncertain time. How do you plan for that, both from a business perspective, and a attenddee. What rides on what days need to stay open after closing? For how long do they need to stay open? How many extra CM's do you need on Monday for x rides, or Tuesday for y rides? When do you stop letting people get into the ride que?

As an attendee you need to know all those things, plus what happens if its a light day and a ride doesn't really need to stay open after park closing. If you got out of one ride just after park closes, can you go try an hop into another late open ride que? How long are we now extending the operations of the park?

If seems like a simple solution on paper, for one night, but it just doesn't seem feasible or predictable at scale, as a total park operation plan.

 

[NickMaio]

Totally agree there could be tweaks to a VQ system. Some type of timing window between your first ride and getting back in line, or a time restriction like after a certain time, or if a certain amount of VQ are available after a certain time, re-rides are allowed. I should also clarify that while i think VQ will be and should be the meta for rides, perhaps I should have clarified that as being your for your more popular/headliner type rides. What people stuck in the past here might call E ticket rides. I can see both the lack of need, and the benefits of having rides like small world/little mermaid/nemo, ect., rides with historically lower wait times not having a virtual que, both to save bandwidth and to give more things to do with the free time you're introducing with the VQ's. I agree it's a balance, and on whole I subjectively like the balance without waiting in lines, and objectively, like to maximize the chance of everyone being assured of the chance to ride a headliner once, even if that comes at the detriment to people who want to ride it multiple times.

As to your second point, i fully admit I don't go to, or care about any other parks than Disney. From the people i have talked with about Disney i don't think i have ever heard the complaint they ran out of things to do, unless they were at Disney against their will, and didn't really have an interest in the offerings to begin with.

The only points i think we disagree on is the 1) the arcade argument. Video games have almost totally transformed from arcade based entertainment to home and portable play. I don't think anyone would argue they enjoyed pay to play type scenarios, or aren't as engaged playing mario kart, zelda, ect., when they don't have to put quarters in.

the second disagreement is about never having themed ques. I don't know if we can play the hindsight game of going back in time and thinking about design theories based around tech that didn't exist back then. However It seems like the rides that WDW has chosen to use VQ with, Guardians, Rise, Tron each have pretty well developed themed pre-shows. Though to be fair, i can't say their design contemplated the use of VQ, or not. I don't think the VQ is going to take that incentive away, as your still going to want to manage throughput and capacity. A well themed pre-show allows you to have more people actively engaged in your ride, then just your loading/offloading capacity. I know personally i view my wait for a ride as being over once i enter the pre-show, so a well themed pre-show experience allows people to think their overall wait was shorter, AND that the overal ride experience was longer.

I also agree about the preshow.....for us that is when the ride actually starts.
We love them.....no rush to leave.
We had a grown women push herself inftont of our LO once the SR preshow ended......

Then she pulled her 4 member family once the line cought up.......so hard to bite your tongue.

 

[TrainsOfDisney]

How do you plan for that, both from a business perspective, and a attenddee. What rides on what days need to stay open after closing? For how long do they need to stay open? How many extra CM's do you need on Monday for x rides, or Tuesday for y rides?

nobody was suggesting keeping the rides open after closing - it was suggested that guests can join the line up until park closing which is how Disney has usually operated and still does for all but a few exceptions.

When do you stop letting people get into the ride que?

At the park closing time.

 

[Vacationeer]

There is a reason other than Volcano Bay no park has tried that. It doesn't work. IMO FP has made guests feel entitled for short waits.

I get you in how that caused a lower line tolerance. Social media didn’t help - Disney Parks became the Olympics of learning how to avoid lines and anything over 30mins is for fools.

Entitled for short waits can also be switched out for interested in the first place.

There’s alot of people willing to repeatedly devote spending on tickets/room/food who become much less interested if the handful of daily attactions needed to satisfy them cost 5+ hours in lines everyday on top of $5-$10k. The isn’t necessarily being entitled, it’s choosing what‘s wanted out of a vacation. The value propostion across different circumstances matters. Of course lines are an expected part of theme parks But there are lines, and then LINES

 

[flynnibus]

As to your second point, i fully admit I don't go to, or care about any other parks than Disney. From the people i have talked with about Disney i don't think i have ever heard the complaint they ran out of things to do, unless they were at Disney against their will, and didn't really have an interest in the offerings to begin with.

You never heard the “half day park” arguments about mgm and dak?

I am sure you’ve at least experienced parks being almost empty around you for a short period… or experienced what it feels like going into a ride ‘cold’ where you raced through an empty queue .. the ride is a different experience when you take away any anticipation or investment by you.

Theme parks are designed with the notion of how many rides a guest can likely experience in a visit. The waits are a factor for both guests and the park operator.

Pacing is a thing… next time you goto an afterhours or limited entry event take note of what yourtakeaway emotionally with a ride that you just burn through… compared to a more slower pace.

The only points i think we disagree on is the 1) the arcade argument. Video games have almost totally transformed from arcade based entertainment to home and portable play. I don't think anyone would argue they enjoyed pay to play type scenarios, or aren't as engaged playing mario kart, zelda, ect., when they don't have to put quarters in.

No i think you missed my example. Don’t compare different games… compare the same games in coin play vs free play. The challenge, thrill, engagement you got playing… say dragons lair… in the arcade when you had to pay .50 a play and you had limited quarters … verse now when you can play the game on your switch, or goto a free play arcade and play with unlimited credits. The satisfaction/thrill is different because you’ve taken away a significant element of yhe intersection.. what is at risk… the consequence.

In console games the comparison eould be line ghost and goblins… where getting to the end… without continues… was such a motivator and part of ghe experience… verse now where you can just resart/respawn/continue etc. the thrill is DIFFERENT

the second disagreement is about never having themed ques. I don't know if we can play the hindsight game of going back in time and thinking about design theories based around tech that didn't exist back then.

We can… it’s called Disneyland vs WDW. Consider something like the matternhorn vs space mountain… or btmrr. The difference in how they manage the queue and how they turned a burden… into something that actually enhances the ride.

Or other retrofit examples expose the value too… go look at an attraction like BTTF the ride…. And take away the video from the queue. You lose so much setup. Or imagine how different you would look at the Yeti and set pieces in Everest if you didn’t have the references from the queue.

Today when you line skip we just accept those losses as ok because we are skipping the line… but you already know whats in the queue. Imagine being a guest who didn’t… and think how the ride experience differs.

The wait has become part of the experience… and build up for an attraction. I mean just look at Rise and how they blurred those concepts even further.

However It seems like the rides that WDW has chosen to use VQ with, Guardians, Rise, Tron each have pretty well developed themed pre-shows. Though to be fair, i can't say their design contemplated the use of VQ, or not.

Here you are basically splitting over where the merge point is. Since the merger of safety speils, grouping, and preshow elements that came around in the epcot+ era your merge point is going to be dictated by that .

I was pointing more towards the elements that preface ghe merge point. Obviously the more you put sfter merge, the more you can fit in to recover this loss… but then you are slso defeating your short wait desires.

 

[TalkToEthan]

because entering the VQ requires no commitment whatsoever, people try for a spot just because.

As a generality I see where you’re at with this. But I would’t say it’s entirely devoid of commitment. Getting up at 6:45(I can’t imagine one waking from a slumber at 6:58 and being alert enough to jump right on the VQ and start refreshing like a rabid monkey) to many is not fun, not fun in the slightest. But I do hear ya.

they'd already been on it(Rise of Resistance)numerous times. All of those people were taking VQ spots from first time/rare visitors,

But when the repeaters failed to show up to the ride why would that necessarily adversely affect first timers. If Disney was sending out empty(or partially filled) 8 seat transports then of course that’s unforgivable.
But for every non show doesn’t that mean that there is one more spot for another?

 

[JMcMahonEsq]

nobody was suggesting keeping the rides open after closing - it was suggested that guests can join the line up until park closing which is how Disney has usually operated and still does for all but a few exceptions.

At the park closing time.

If you let people get into line up until Park closing, aren't you absolutely saying that you are keeping the rides open after closing? I mean if there is a line at 8:59 and the park closes at 9, unless you are kicking everyone out of the line at 9, then the ride(s) (if your doing this for more than 1 ride) has to stay open after 9 park close so that everyone that got in line before 9 gets to ride it.

And then the problem becomes how big a line do you allow to get generated before cutting off access to the line, which you said would happen at park closing time. If the line is 5-10 minutes, it might not be a big deal, the ride operates for an extra half hour, and you likely run through the remaining guests. But what if the line at 8:59 is an hour wait, 90min, what if its a new ride and you get a 2hr wait time even at the end of the day. How are you scheduling CM's for that ride? When is there shift ending?

There's no certainly in that type of system to make it an overall park operation plan to just keep big ride's open and running until some unknown and different time every day based upon fluctuating line length.

 

[MickeyLuv'r]

Agree on both points.



Not completely with this.

There are varied ways to "make money". You can focus on volume. You can capture a higher margin at point of sale (which will probably also yield a lower aquisition cost). You can focus on customer retention and repeat business by offering a high level of service at a reasonable (yet profitable) price. Or you can price gouge based on simply an acquisition strategy, with the objective separating the guest from the very last cent of their discretionary budget.

All have their pros and cons. Some carry a better perception socially than others.

To me, Disney has lost it's way. The messaging and perception has been all over the place. And because of this they are alientating every category of guest.

• They wanted to gouge - enter Galactic Starcruiser, Surge Pricing, Genie+, and ILL.
• They wanted a higher margin - so they take away perks, reduce portion size, change up park hopping rules, lower discount structures, increase pricing, and reduce staffing.
• They wanted to increase sevice and cater to what they thought the guest wanted - but they didn't even bother to listen to what they were saying. And somehow they have now succeeded at overcomplicating the entire vacation experience.

All Disney has to do is listen. There are ways to still be a profitable business and make money, and give your guests what they want. It takes a little creativity. It takes the ability to listen.

Disney's approach to the guest right now is akin to a monologue. In reality they should be striving for a dialogue.

You left one off...now they are also reducing DAS. While that might appeal to some, it = confusing messaging to the disability community, at least in the way they rolled out the changes.

 

[TrainsOfDisney]

There's no certainly in that type of system to make it an overall park operation plan to just keep big ride's open and running until some unknown and different time every day based upon fluctuating line length.

Are you not aware that this is how all of the major Orlando parks operate?

 

[Andrew25]

There's no certainly in that type of system to make it an overall park operation plan to just keep big ride's open and running until some unknown and different time every day based upon fluctuating line length.

This has been standard park operating procedures forever. Universal is consistently operating Hagrid's Motorbike for an hour+ most days.

Disney does the same with Flight of Passage, Space Mountain, Seven Dwarfs... it's just part of the business.