If Disney wants to "lower Attendance" then Build a 5th Park..

[RollerCoaster]

I just don't think a 5th park will happen anytime soon. Put it this way, this is how it has gone so far:

Magic Kingdom 1971
Epcot 1982
Hollywood Studios 1989
Animal Kingdom 1998

There has never been more than 11 years since the opening without a new park. Right now we are at 23 years. If you take away the water parks that were added, that's a lot of time in between. There is space for sure, but it is possible there is also no ideas in order to have a main park.

The expectation that a new park would be built on average every 9-11 years is totally unrealistic. You're either going to run out of land or more likely demand for new parks will level off and you stop building. This has nothing to do with a lack of creative ideas. It's very well known that Animal Kingdom didn't perform as expected in terms of increasing resort visitation and increasing length of stay.

 

[RollerCoaster]

If Disney wanted lower attendance they would allow the water parks to just be part of the park hopping without making them an extra add on. I would certainly be more inclined to hit then if that were the case.

Both of those waterparks when in operation are basically at capacity during the times of the year when waterparks are actually in demand. There is a good reason why they're a separate gate park. They can be included with park hopping for a nominal charge.

 

[danyoung56]

Just tell me, why do virtual lines make a crowd feel more crowded?

Start with... "Virtual lines make crowds feel more crowded because *insert reason here*"

It seems to me that it makes total sense that a virtual line puts more people out of line and into open space, or another queue. People have to take up some kinda space, and if they're not in a queue because it's virtual, then they have to be taking up space somewhere else.

Say you have a regular queue that holds 1,000 people. Now, turn that into a virtual queue, and there's 1,000 people that are elsewhere in the park, taking up space. Add in a few of those in the park and you have extra-crowded conditions.

 

[jloucks]

It seems to me that it makes total sense that a virtual line puts more people out of line and into open space, or another queue. People have to take up some kinda space, and if they're not in a queue because it's virtual, then they have to be taking up space somewhere else.

Say you have a regular queue that holds 1,000 people. Now, turn that into a virtual queue, and there's 1,000 people that are elsewhere in the park, taking up space. Add in a few of those in the park and you have extra-crowded conditions.

Thank you, I appreciate you're taking the time to explain that while not being a &$%^ about it.

That makes perfect sense now, keeping people tightly packed in line keeps them out of everyplace else. My mental hickup was getting around X=X not being true. ...and the fact that I always seem to be the schmuck in a tightly packed line.

 

[jpinkc]

Disney wont build a new park in the US. They wont. They could have anytime after AK. If anything they should expand what they have. But they wont, Current Management (Slappie, Iger and crew), are Bean Counters. They just look at the parks as the Piggy Bank, that keeps giving money with very little invested over 50 YEARS!!! It would have to drastically change at the Parks for them to even consider it. They have had 50 years of MK and in the early days said it would have a matched attraction count with DL. UHM Guess what didnt happen after Roy was gone. Roy was to me the really last person to fight for the parks. If Disney wanted to expand with all the space they have at WDW they should have started 25years ago. I am not talking about new parks just attractions. Some they took out should not have been taken. The new rides should have been added with all the space.

 

[SteveAZee]

Just tell me, why do virtual lines make a crowd feel more crowded?

Start with... "Virtual lines make crowds feel more crowded because *insert reason here*" Don't say "because of how the park manages the crowd". That is just a nonsensical non-answer.

I'd even be ok with a link to a long drawn out explanation.

Or just go with the old "I'm a genius and most of you cannot fathom my higher level thinking" move, that works too.

Is it due to people, no longer standing in long lines and generally out of the way of sidewalks, stores, and restaurants, are now milling around the park, looking for something to do until they can get on the attraction? That's what I assumed.

 

[networkpro]

I played enough Rollercoaster Tycoon back in the day to know this is completely false. One week, tops. And if overcrowding becomes a problem, there's always the mass execution via drowning technique.

Governments kinda frown on the "Pogo the Clown" (aka John Wayne Gacy) approach to crowd control in amusement parks. Furthermore, they like to follow these little things called bids, construction standards, OSHA regulations, and Permitting. If you've never dabbled in what exactly it takes to build a small commercial structure you're in for a rude awaking. Multiply that by the ~300 odd things you need then you see the disconnect between the keyboard and the real world.

 

[BHF]

Governments kinda frown on the "Pogo the Clown" (aka John Wayne Gacy) approach to crowd control in amusement parks. Furthermore, they like to follow these little things called bids, construction standards, OSHA regulations, and Permitting. If you've never dabbled in what exactly it takes to build a small commercial structure you're in for a rude awaking. Multiply that by the ~300 odd things you need then you see the disconnect between the keyboard and the real world.

I pulled the post. Figured not too many would catch the full-on satire.
Though all joking aside, that popular game did give many the wrong idea at how "easy" it is to develop and run a park in reality.

 

[networkpro]

I pulled the post. Figured not too many would catch the full-on satire.
Though all joking aside, that popular game did give many the wrong idea at how "easy" it is to develop and run a park in reality.

Lots get touched by the "good idea fairy" and refuse to recognize it as a whimsical farce...after all they thought of it. Same goes for golden retrievers that chase parked cars... looked like a great idea at the time until reality asserted itsself.

 

[Karakasa]

I think the issue is they've been incredibly encompassing and broad with the themes of all of the parks. There isn't a lot left that isn't cutting into the other parks in some fashion, especially since they decided to double down on IP, but only IP they fully own. Something like a "music" or "video game" theme wouldn't work given the amount of licensing they'd need to do. A Marvel or Star Wars park defeats the purpose of pushing GotG into Epcot and making Galaxy's Edge in Hollywood Studios.

The one thing they don't have is a real "horror" presence- ToT and HM, sure, but the surrounds of them aren't particularly spooky, it's more "happens to be in Hollywood and haunted" and "happens to be in former-colonial USA and haunted". But I'm not sure how viable a real horror park would be given the presence of families with kids under 10. Epcot and Animal Kingdom as concepts were at least just "too boring" (not my words) for kids and families could just drag them along anyway. A Horror Kingdom or something like that would potentially give the kiddos nightmares, and some aspects of Disney already do that without meaning to be scary.

I guess they could do a fantasy-themed park that isn't based on IP given Fantasyland is "the Disney animation land" first and foremost, but a lot of what they could put in there could be put into AK or World Showcase too.

Then again this was an issue with Animal Kingdom too- the thought was "well, there's the Jungle Cruise, do we need an animal theme park?" yet, that panned out. But I'm just trying to think from the viewpoint of current Disney management. If it's not completely uncovered by the other four parks, and isn't something they can plug IP Disney owns into, why do it?

 

[DonniePeverley]

A vulnerable new CEO trying to impress his investors isn't going to start investing the companies money, rather he will try to keep his job by give any profits over to investors and keeping them sweet.

We aren't going to see major investments till this new CEO feels comfortable he won't be booted out.

 

[RollerCoaster]

It seems to me that it makes total sense that a virtual line puts more people out of line and into open space, or another queue. People have to take up some kinda space, and if they're not in a queue because it's virtual, then they have to be taking up space somewhere else.

Say you have a regular queue that holds 1,000 people. Now, turn that into a virtual queue, and there's 1,000 people that are elsewhere in the park, taking up space. Add in a few of those in the park and you have extra-crowded conditions.

I'll elaborate. With FP+ you would allow guests to make three reservations upfront. Essentially that individual was now waiting in three virtual lines and yet their physical self was still left to do something else- ride a ride, shop, dine, walk around.

This exponentially increases how crowded the parks are without actually adding additional bodies.

 

[Andrew25]

Here's your capacity/attendance problem fixed:

• EP: Upgrade Imagination, actually use the Imagination theater, etc.
• MK: Fix Tomorrowland. I would also argue that they should redo and move Peter Pan's Flight to a larger area for higher capacity.
• DHS: You add an omnimover and a boat ride to DHS and update the shows
• DAK: You add an additional 2-3 E-tickets to DAK and 2 high capacity d-tickets.

You do all that before you even consider a 5th park. (I've also clamored that Universal should be doing something similar before building Epic Universe.)

 

[RollerCoaster]

Here's your capacity/attendance problem fixed:

• EP: Upgrade Imagination, actually use the Imagination theater, etc.
• MK: Fix Tomorrowland. I would also argue that they should redo and move Peter Pan's Flight to a larger area for higher capacity.
• DHS: You add an omnimover and a boat ride to DHS and update the shows
• DAK: You add an additional 2-3 E-tickets to DAK and 2 high capacity d-tickets.

You do all that before you even consider a 5th park. (I've also clamored that Universal should be doing something similar before building Epic Universe.)

Universal is on the right path with the additional park. Universal is seeing growth with each addition in key metrics and the additional park will further increase interest in their brands and parks, increase on-property stays, and increasing length of stay. It's a very strategic move against Disney. What they've been doing is working very well. I'm surprised at how many families I know who've made a trip to Orlando for Universal and skipped Disney entirely. The reviews upon return are also very favorable, with many actually equating the resort experience as better than what Disney offers.

Disney doesn't have a capacity and attendance problem. The overcrowding of the past is directly related to FP+. The genie and lighting land implementation is going to be in the middle ground between no FP and FP+. It will be a balance and dramatically improve the park experience versus what was happening with FP+.

The reason why you don't do what you propose is that theme parks need to constantly reinvest in their properties to keep guests interested. Building them out completely leaves you will little opportunity to do that.

There is not a good argument for a 5th gate in Orlando. There is however a strong argument for a 3rd gate in Anaheim.

 

[Gottliebjess]

I think the issue is they've been incredibly encompassing and broad with the themes of all of the parks. There isn't a lot left that isn't cutting into the other parks in some fashion, especially since they decided to double down on IP, but only IP they fully own. Something like a "music" or "video game" theme wouldn't work given the amount of licensing they'd need to do. A Marvel or Star Wars park defeats the purpose of pushing GotG into Epcot and making Galaxy's Edge in Hollywood Studios.

The one thing they don't have is a real "horror" presence- ToT and HM, sure, but the surrounds of them aren't particularly spooky, it's more "happens to be in Hollywood and haunted" and "happens to be in former-colonial USA and haunted". But I'm not sure how viable a real horror park would be given the presence of families with kids under 10. Epcot and Animal Kingdom as concepts were at least just "too boring" (not my words) for kids and families could just drag them along anyway. A Horror Kingdom or something like that would potentially give the kiddos nightmares, and some aspects of Disney already do that without meaning to be scary.

I guess they could do a fantasy-themed park that isn't based on IP given Fantasyland is "the Disney animation land" first and foremost, but a lot of what they could put in there could be put into AK or World Showcase too.

Then again this was an issue with Animal Kingdom too- the thought was "well, there's the Jungle Cruise, do we need an animal theme park?" yet, that panned out. But I'm just trying to think from the viewpoint of current Disney management. If it's not completely uncovered by the other four parks, and isn't something they can plug IP Disney owns into, why do it?

They could do a video game land and they could do it pretty cool and have the IP to pull it off. Wreck-it-Ralph, Onward, Kingdom Hearts. And they could really take any IP and turn it in a game situation. When I did they Disney theme park course this was the land I designed and it’s ripe for ideas!

 

[Walt Disney1955]

The expectation that a new park would be built on average every 9-11 years is totally unrealistic. You're either going to run out of land or more likely demand for new parks will level off and you stop building. This has nothing to do with a lack of creative ideas. It's very well known that Animal Kingdom didn't perform as expected in terms of increasing resort visitation and increasing length of stay.

There has to be a time when you just can't go any further. We might be there.

 

[Wilbret]

Disney could ramp up the on-resort amenities so more people spend a day in the resorts. Resort pools are ghost towns during the day. (we will sometimes stay onsite and not even go to a parik). I can speak from experience that quite often we don't do ANYTHING at the resort if we are visiting parks, we are too busy go-go-going. We started booking an extra day so we could have a legit pool day, etc.

Seems like there used to be more pool parties and things to do? Aulani has Auntie's Beach House. Parents might like the option to drop off kids for a few hours!

It's not an extra park, but if you can offload people from the parks a little, it could help.

 

[Gottliebjess]

Disney could ramp up the on-resort amenities so more people spend a day in the resorts. Resort pools are ghost towns during the day. (we will sometimes stay onsite and not even go to a parik). I can speak from experience that quite often we don't do ANYTHING at the resort if we are visiting parks, we are too busy go-go-going. We started booking an extra day so we could have a legit pool day, etc.

Seems like there used to be more pool parties and things to do? Aulani has Auntie's Beach House. Parents might like the option to drop off kids for a few hours!

It's not an extra park, but if you can offload people from the parks a little, it could help.

I agree. I like a mid week break to recharge and more resort activities could help.

 

[Tha Realest]

I feel like WDW has reached a saturation point with its four parks. Also, the $2 billion SWGE experiment didn't impact attendance in a positive way - by some accounts, it went down. Given the popularity and ubiquity of that IP, what IP/theme could Disney base a fifth gate around that would justify its likely $10 billion budget?

 

[J4546]

disney needs to put money into the 4 parks it has now, not build another one imo