Rumor Higher Speed Rail from MCO to Disney World

[flynnibus]

Luckily for Brightline, the difficulties with commuter rail in suburban areas do not apply to intercity rail, as intercity rail is much more like air travel in terms of demand and business model.

yeah but both require volume to be sustainable. When they complete head to head with air travel with no other tangible benefit- trains lose.

trains benefit when the long haul is easily accessible and compatible with the region and local transit.

trains benefit from pattern travel line commuters because of the fixed path.

so while they are both intercity - they do not share the same structural benefits necessarily.

train travel benefits from local integration, proximity, cheaper fares vs air, and reduced traveler overhead. lose those things … and trains will keep losing vs air.

 

[flynnibus]

rail connection succeeds or fails on the merits of its service frequency and its geography. It has nothing to do with culture. Americans ride trains as much as any other wealthy people in the places where our density of demand, network shape, service patterns, and cost allow it.

it is very culture oriented - people are prejudiced against different forms of transit based on what they know and are familiar with. In America the memories and images of dirty, unsafe, unreliable public transit of major cities of the past is burned into the minds of many. Most wouldn’t set foot on a lynx bus for this very reason. There is a stigma against public transit.

Only in areas where its use is essential for white collar business commuting is there broader acceptance and tolerance.

america will never reach tge levels of other countries because we do not embrace public transit in our zoning and development planning— the expectations of development fights and poor support for public transit is a catch-22 that holds us back by generations

 

[joelkfla]

The Brightline train from Miami to Orlando is almost here

The Brightline from Miami to Orlando is almost here. The modern, eco-friendly high-speed rail has officially passed the halfway mark for construction on its extension to Orlando.

www.local10.com

It already cost 50 bucks on normal operating times to go from Miami to Palm Beach. It's about 100 per person they said this when they announced this. No one on a budget is going to pay that much for a 3 hour train ride from Orlando to Miami when it takes just as long on the Florida Turnpike. I love trains, but I'm a Florida Native and covering distances is the norm for us. But this just isn't cost effective. Pre-Pandemic the line was suffering because it just isn't economic to ride from Miami to Palm Beach.

There's nothing in that link about fares. Somebody posted a comment saying they had heard it would be $100, so that's worthless. A couple of bloggers have said it would be $100, again with no reference to an original source.

In an Orlando Sentinel article dated NOV 21, 2019, Patrick Goddard, president of Virgin Trains at the time, said the fare would be between $60 and $100. Maybe people glommed onto the high end figure and took it as fact. I recall seeing somewhere that Brightline also intends to offer family fare packages, but I can't back that up with a reference.

Regarding fares on the existing service, an article on the Miami CVB site dated MAR 3, 2020, which I think was just before the shutdown, said one way fares were between $10-$30, not $50. That seems to match up with contemporaneous reviews on TripAdvisor. IIRC, Brightline had switched to demand-driven fares, so the fare might have been higher in some cases, and 1st class "Select" fares were higher. Brightline claims that ridership was increasing right up until the pandemic.

So the Orlando fare might be $100, or it might be less. And there might or might not be a discount for advance purchase, and children traveling with adults might be less. We won't know until 2023. And we'll find out whether Floridians & tourists traveling between the 2 metro centers think the comfort and the stress avoidance are worth the cost.

 

[Bullseye1967]

I agree that the 417 route could be built faster and is less expensive, and that the odds of it actually being built are much higher. In fact, I have written a letter to Mayor Demmings saying essentially that.

But I think it is more likely that the Convention Center route is the one that is going to be selected.

Just curious on your thoughts on why you think the convention center route will be selected. I have heard otherwise but my sources are kind of Disney slanted.

Exactly I mean 100 per person is cheaper than most flights. But still at 3 hours vs 45 mins, it's a hard sell when it's cheaper to just drive to Miami even with the tolls. For a family of 4 that be 400 dollars plus tax compared to lets say 50 dollars on a full tank of regular un-leaded gasoline. I'm not against the project I wish it success, but I just pray this isn't a tax rescue. Brightline loosing the contract with Virgin has had them strapped for cash.

Have you been to an airport recently and taken a flight? Between arriving at one end and departing on the other end you can easily add 3 to 4 hours onto any "flight".

 

[DisneyCane]

Have you been to an airport recently and taken a flight? Between arriving at one end and departing on the other end you can easily add 3 to 4 hours onto any "flight".

How the heck to you add 3 to 4 hours above the flight time between arrival and departure on a domestic flight? Especially recently. Even parking off site, I arrive 1 1/2 hours before departure if I'm checking bags, less if I'm only doing carry on. Even getting a rental car upon arrival takes maybe 15 minutes and my wife can wait for the bags while I'm at the counter. Less than 2 hours is added to the flight time.

Heck, last week I flew for business and just beat the 45 minute deadline for checking bags and walked to the gate just as boarding began. The airports were pretty empty (not quite as empty as May 2020) so that can only be done under specific circumstances.

With a train you can't just show up right at the scheduled time and leave the station instantaneously. Sure it will take less time than with flying but probably more like an hour less. The actual trip time will be shorter by air than train. The longer the distance the more time is saved en route.

For my house in south Florida to WDW, door to door the fastest way (with or without this eventual train route) is driving. It takes me a little over 3 hours including a restroom stop at one of the turnpike plazas. Even though the flight is only around 45 minutes, it takes me 20 minutes to get to the airport, another 15 to shuttle from parking to the terminal, I have to be there an hour early, 15 minutes to get a rental car and close to a half hour to get from MCO to WDW. Not much longer than driving but a few minutes longer.

Brightline even with a station in WDW will take longer door to door than either current option. Plus, I want my vehicle when I'm there so if I drive that's taken care of. I tend to stay off site and eat mostly off site so that's a big consideration for me.

 

[Movielover]

How the heck to you add 3 to 4 hours above the flight time between arrival and departure on a domestic flight?

Easy, you start by booking your flight on Spirit. Then laugh at yourself for making such a stupid decision and quickly switch to United Airlines. Go to the airport. Stand in the check-in line for 50 minutes because the online check-in does not work. Head to gate. Board airplane. Sit in assigned seat for 30 minutes. Argue with United Airlines Worker for 10 minutes when they decide to kick you off the plane because they knowingly overbooked the flight. Proceed to get beaten up by airport security like a piece of luggage. Take 20 minutes to recover from blunt force trauma. Pull out phone and book a flight with American or Southwest. Proceed to gate. Wait another 10 minutes for that 1st class a-hole who clearly is capable and does not need the afforded extra time to board first. Board plane and contemplate life choices

Boom, 3 hours easily!

 

[lazyboy97o]

As for the exact logistics of why the Convention center, just look at any map. The route is using the Florida Turnpike as a right of way. Disney isn't as close to the Turnpike as the Convention center is.

No currently under construction or proposed route uses the Turnpike right of way. The Convention Center is along the Beachline alternate route out of Orlando towards Tampa, which would use right of way owned by the Florida Turnpike Authority but would still not follow the Turnpike itself. This route still turns down I-4 right past Disney Springs. Brightline’s preferred route along FL-417 also never follows the Turnpike and also passes right by Disney Springs where it would head down I-4.

Again I'm saying this as a 9th Generation American and great great grandson to Henry Flagler, trains are a bygone era that doesn't have much appeal in the Southern United States or nation in general.

This is irrelevant. You keep dropping these types of comments in to hide the fact that you don’t even know a lot of the basics.

How this project is still ongoing is baffling when Virgin has pulled all funding on what was a struggling line prior to the pandemic.

Virgin didn’t pull out, they were kicked out.

Brightline is no better than Tri-Rail or Sunrail, cheaper Commuter options.

It’s not a commuter train.

I'm not against Brightline in any way, but if this fails, which is a massive possibility, these structures would be useless to Disney which is why corporate is being so hesitant about it. Again all of this is speculative based upon rumor. Nothing is set in stone until we see the true data that comes once Brightline returns come November to the Miami-Ft. Lauderdale-Palm Beach route.

If Disney didn’t want to deal with the stations or don’t think they’ll last then they didn’t need to agree to a station in the first place. But of course that would be a moot point since you are suggesting Brightline will go bust in the near future. It can’t be both that nobody will ride the existing line anymore and kill the whole thing and Disney will be stuck with an abandoned station.

When they first announced the project all of the media including the official press release from Brightline said the Miami Orlando route would cost 100 per person. Unless someone has changed that price, it has been reported by the media for years. Brightline can claim all it wants but there's competition in that route with long existing Tri-Rail. Again I'm not against the project in any way shape or form, transit and public transit is direly needed all across Florida.

Then you should be able to find the announcement.

Tri-Rail is not the same route which is why Tri-Rail is looking to expand onto the Brightline corridor.

A round trip on American Eagle from MCO to MIA in a main cabin will set you back 97 USD plus Tax. Pricing this to such a way that you build a big enough demand to make the more than 5.5 Billion invested into it to be worthwhile will have investors scratching their heads.

A round trip can also cost $300.

Seeing as the investors already handed over their money I’m guessing they are not scratching their heads.

 

[ULPO46]

No currently under construction or proposed route uses the Turnpike right of way. The Convention Center is along the Beachline alternate route out of Orlando towards Tampa, which would use right of way owned by the Florida Turnpike Authority but would still not follow the Turnpike itself. This route still turns down I-4 right past Disney Springs. Brightline’s preferred route along FL-417 also never follows the Turnpike and also passes right by Disney Springs where it would head down I-4.


This is irrelevant. You keep dropping these types of comments in to hide the fact that you don’t even know a lot of the basics.


Virgin didn’t pull out, they were kicked out.


It’s not a commuter train.


If Disney didn’t want to deal with the stations or don’t think they’ll last then they didn’t need to agree to a station in the first place. But of course that would be a moot point since you are suggesting Brightline will go bust in the near future. It can’t be both that nobody will ride the existing line anymore and kill the whole thing and Disney will be stuck with an abandoned station.


Then you should be able to find the announcement.

Tri-Rail is not the same route which is why Tri-Rail is looking to expand onto the Brightline corridor.


A round trip can also cost $300.

Seeing as the investors already handed over their money I’m guessing they are not scratching their heads.

alrighty I'm not expert just pointing out that we as American's don't use rail as our main source of transport. My apologies if in any sense of the word I have offended.

 

[joelkfla]

Brightline is no better than Tri-Rail or Sunrail, cheaper Commuter options.

Don't know your definition of "better". Tri-Rail does not run to downtown Miami (yet), and takes 45 minutes longer than Brightline (without going downtown). I've never ridden Tri-Rail, but if the cars are standard commuter rolling stock, Brightline is much more comfortable. Does Tri-rail have A/C and USB chargers, and tray tables at every seat?

SunRail has absolutely no overlap with Brightline.

 

[Andrew25]

A good amount of South Floridians go to Orlando for a weekend getaway. A train will make getaways easier and a lot safer for people who don't like the turnpike. You also add the possibility of single day trips for those vacationing in South Beach.

The cost for traveling on the turnpike roundtrip is somewhere around $82 - $32 on tolls and depending on your vehicle $45+ on fuel.
If they can offer family deals, it'll be a hit.

 

[joelkfla]

A good amount of South Floridians go to Orlando for a weekend getaway. A train will make getaways easier and a lot safer for people who don't like the turnpike. You also add the possibility of single day trips for those vacationing in South Beach.

And vice versa: people vacationing in Orlando doing a 1 or 2-day side trip to Miami, or picking up a cruise at Port of Miami. Plus, Brightline is now offering one-stop shopping for shuttle or rideshare transfers from the station to local destinations in S FL, and they've said the cost will be lower than separately booked rideshare.

 

[Lilofan]

A good amount of South Floridians go to Orlando for a weekend getaway. A train will make getaways easier and a lot safer for people who don't like the turnpike. You also add the possibility of single day trips for those vacationing in South Beach.

The cost for traveling on the turnpike roundtrip is somewhere around $82 - $32 on tolls and depending on your vehicle $45+ on fuel.
If they can offer family deals, it'll be a hit.

Single day possible trips from Orlando to South Beach including roundtrip Bright line train and Ubers to get to the beach? Don't see that happening if just to be in SoBe for just a few hours.

 

[Andrew25]

Single day possible trips from Orlando to South Beach including roundtrip Bright line train and Ubers to get to the beach? Don't see that happening if just to be in SoBe for just a few hours.

I'm sure people visiting Orlando for a week or more would love to spend a day at Miami Beach. For the right price, a train ticket + shuttle service to South Beach would be a hit.

Not everyone loves to be at the parks every day of their vacation.

 

[Lilofan]

I'm sure people visiting Orlando for a week or more would love to spend a day at Miami Beach. For the right price, a train ticket + shuttle service to South Beach would be a hit.

Not everyone loves to be at the parks every day of their vacation.

$100 each way on the Brightline from MCO not even from WDW to Miami ( 3 hours one way ) then Uber to South Beach then return to WDW late that day/night just to spend a few hours at the beach?. One is being overly optimistic this will be a hit.

 

[Andrew25]

$100 each way on the Brightline from MCO not even from WDW to Miami ( 3 hours one way ) then Uber to South Beach then return to WDW late that day/night just to spend a few hours at the beach?. One is being overly optimistic this will be a hit.

I sincerely doubt it'll be $100 each way. If it is, I'll be the first one to say it'll fail. But it's not going to be $100 one way.

There's also a good chance people will split their stay and visit WDW/Universal for a few days and 1/2 nights at Miami Beach (or vice versa).

Europeans love visiting Miami (and some love the parks)... and they love trains and won't question the decision to take a train over a flight.

 

[Lilofan]

I sincerely doubt it'll be $100 each way. If it is, I'll be the first one to say it'll fail. But it's not going to be $100 one way.

There's also a good chance people will split their stay and visit WDW/Universal for a few days and 1/2 nights at Miami Beach (or vice versa).

Europeans love visiting Miami (and some love the parks)... and they love trains and won't question the decision to take a train over a flight.

That's what Miami local news is reporting a few weeks ago. If to spend a few days in SoBe makes more sense . One day at Miami Beach with a six hour train ride round trip Orlando Miami Orlando during the same day? Not going to be popular in my opinion.

 

[ULPO46]

That's what Miami local news is reporting a few weeks ago.

Thats what they've been reporting since 2012 I know we have been told not to trust the media but jeez I watch the local news and listen to the news flashes on the radio whilst heading into the office. From Jacksonville to Miami to Tampa that's been the news I don't get why people are being so defensive. No I can't find a written article but ABC, NBC, CBS, and even the local PBS News hours have stated that's the cost. We aren't arm chair execs here. If you aren't a local than you can't state anything about the service. Thank you for explaining what I've been trying to state with fewer context.

Cost to catch a ride on Brightline high-speed train

We have a better idea of how much it might cost a passenger to hitch a ride to Miami from Orlando on Brightline's high-speed train. The company tells us a one-way ticket will be around 100 bucks. The track is still under construction. The train is expected to be ready in 2022.

www.fox35orlando.com

 

[lazyboy97o]

Thats what they've been reporting since 2012 I know we have been told not to trust the media but jeez I watch the local news and listen to the news flashes on the radio whilst heading into the office. From Jacksonville to Miami to Tampa that's been the news I don't get why people are being so defensive. No I can't find a written article but ABC, NBC, CBS, and even the local PBS News hours have stated that's the cost. We aren't arm chair execs here. If you aren't a local than you can't state anything about the service. Thank you for explaining what I've been trying to state with fewer context.

Cost to catch a ride on Brightline high-speed train

We have a better idea of how much it might cost a passenger to hitch a ride to Miami from Orlando on Brightline's high-speed train. The company tells us a one-way ticket will be around 100 bucks. The track is still under construction. The train is expected to be ready in 2022.

www.fox35orlando.com

Being a local is meaningless, especially when you don’t even seem to know the route or make claims like Bob Chapek will somehow use the Reedy Creek Improvement District to renege on Disney’s agreement.

 

[ULPO46]

Being a local is meaningless, especially when you don’t even seem to know the route or make claims like Bob Chapek will somehow use the Reedy Creek Improvement District to renege on Disney’s agreement.

My apologies I will not state anything else on the matter. Have a great day!

 

[Bullseye1967]

How the heck to you add 3 to 4 hours above the flight time between arrival and departure on a domestic flight? Especially recently. Even parking off site, I arrive 1 1/2 hours before departure if I'm checking bags, less if I'm only doing carry on. Even getting a rental car upon arrival takes maybe 15 minutes and my wife can wait for the bags while I'm at the counter. Less than 2 hours is added to the flight time.

Heck, last week I flew for business and just beat the 45 minute deadline for checking bags and walked to the gate just as boarding began. The airports were pretty empty (not quite as empty as May 2020) so that can only be done under specific circumstances.

With a train you can't just show up right at the scheduled time and leave the station instantaneously. Sure it will take less time than with flying but probably more like an hour less. The actual trip time will be shorter by air than train. The longer the distance the more time is saved en route.

For my house in south Florida to WDW, door to door the fastest way (with or without this eventual train route) is driving. It takes me a little over 3 hours including a restroom stop at one of the turnpike plazas. Even though the flight is only around 45 minutes, it takes me 20 minutes to get to the airport, another 15 to shuttle from parking to the terminal, I have to be there an hour early, 15 minutes to get a rental car and close to a half hour to get from MCO to WDW. Not much longer than driving but a few minutes longer.

Brightline even with a station in WDW will take longer door to door than either current option. Plus, I want my vehicle when I'm there so if I drive that's taken care of. I tend to stay off site and eat mostly off site so that's a big consideration for me.

I guess it all depends on where you are flying from. I can easily burn two hours checking in and going through security and at times maybe even 2.5 because I don't want to chance it I shoot to be at my gate an hour early.