Rumor Higher Speed Rail from MCO to Disney World

[Patcheslee]

The first train for the Miami - Orlando leg will soon be making its way from its assembly plant in Sacramento to Miami.

Brightline high-tech trains for Orlando service roll off production line in California

Hey the engine came from my plant... do I get a discount lol

 

[DisneyCane]

In today's economy I just don't see this being a long term investment for Brightline. Prepandemic it worked as Snowbirds are used to using Commuters between Palm Beach and Downtown Miami. The expansion into Port Miami makes sense to increase tourist who want to eventually take a cruise in the post pandemic world who want the cheaper flight to Orlando. But the price just isn't worth while in my personal opinion. I love trains, I love and have used Brightline. But I wouldn't doubt after all this investment it goes bust. Americans aren't used to intercity rail. We already have Sunrail and Tri-Rail along these routes. With Virgin not up fronting the money promised, Virgin Trains America never came to fruition.

As for why Orlando like Anaheim doesn't have a light rail/metromover/peoplemover/monorail is due to City Council meetings. If anyone has watched the Disney + Documentaries about Transportation, Walt had proposed to bring a Monorail system to Anaheim/Los Angeles and the council disproved it. Disney attempted in Orlando but no one wanted it. In 50 years, I-4 has been under construction with very few breaks as the growth of the surrounding metro area has increased. Like Miami or Tampa, expansion of Public Transit is lacking.

Public Transit isn't my thing or area of expertise, but Lynx sucks, is often late and highly unreliable. Public Transit in my native state of Florida in general sucks from Jacksonville to Miami. Cities invested millions of dollars for systems that NO ONE USES! After so many years of delays including C-19, I'm surprised this is and has been green lit. Then again someone somewhere in government is richer. Regardless I hope my fellow Floridians embrace this new extension and begin to ride this system post C-19. Nothing impressed me more than when I was sent on assignment to Shanghai and saw all the massive work made to connect the then future Shanghai Disneyland Resort with the rest of the city/country.

Not going to far Disneyland Paris has connections to France's RER, TGV, and Ouigo plus linking access to the wider Eurostar system. Transporting guest to and from the WDWR will be the next challenge within the end of the decade with what has become a very agonizing cost cutting system. As to those who wonder why Disney can get a line to Brightline, lest we forget that Disney owns and operates two cities in the State of Florida as unfair as it may seem to Universal, Seas, and smaller mom and pops along I-4/I-Drive, the power of Disney based on this fact alone is why they can do this. After all this is the very same company that was given the right to build an international airport or Nuclear Power Station on property. But that's my two cents on the subject. Patience, persistence, and hoping people enjoy the ride long enough where I'd be willing to pay myself to ride and visit family in SoFl and vice versa without driving past the idiots driving at 90+ mph on the Fl Turnpike.

The sprawling suburbia that makes up most of the metropolitan areas that you mention don't lend themselves to commuter rail service. Miami barely has enough population density for metrorail/metromover to sort of work without too much subsidy. Even that isn't great unless you live very close to the metrorail route.

With the way these areas have been developed, mass transit just doesn't work well because the low density of residences doesn't allow for convenient close stops to many people.

My friend used to live in Boca Raton and commute to Doral for work. When gas prices got high the last time, he tried to save money by using tri-rail and busses to commute. He had to drive 15 minutes to get to the tri-rail station and make sure he was there early. With all the stops and waiting for the bus it would take him at least a half an hour longer than rush hour traffic, not counting the trip to the train.

 

[Twirlnhurl]

Luckily for Brightline, the difficulties with commuter rail in suburban areas do not apply to intercity rail, as intercity rail is much more like air travel in terms of demand and business model.

 

[ULPO46]

The sprawling suburbia that makes up most of the metropolitan areas that you mention don't lend themselves to commuter rail service. Miami barely has enough population density for metrorail/metromover to sort of work without too much subsidy. Even that isn't great unless you live very close to the metrorail route.

With the way these areas have been developed, mass transit just doesn't work well because the low density of residences doesn't allow for convenient close stops to many people.

My friend used to live in Boca Raton and commute to Doral for work. When gas prices got high the last time, he tried to save money by using tri-rail and busses to commute. He had to drive 15 minutes to get to the tri-rail station and make sure he was there early. With all the stops and waiting for the bus it would take him at least a half an hour longer than rush hour traffic, not counting the trip to the train.

Exactly it's why this project has been so highly controversial from the start as originally tax payer funding was brought up only to go "totally private". Floridians and American's in general are just too used to our cars. Shoot eventually I had to end up buying one because the distance of things are too far and in between where buses just don't have routes. Not to mention all across the US we have lost critical bus routes due to the pandemic that many people relied on to get to work. Case in point the WDW unofficial carpool Facebook group. When Lynx cut routes earlier in the year it affected countless cast members in day to day operations from getting to work on time.

Would it be cool to see the train pull into WDW heck yeah it would. But realistically the logistics and long term feasibility of this alongside Cheapick's budget restricting I don't see this being a figure happening anytime soon. The MCO station has lied dormant for more than half a decade already and that cost 215 Million Florida State Tax Dollars. I'm not saying the project has failed, it does get some use. But at 100 per person, just doesn't seem economically reasonable unless airline tickets get so high that tourist prefer the train over a plain to reach Miami.

 

[lazyboy97o]

Exactly it's why this project has been so highly controversial from the start as originally tax payer funding was brought up only to go "totally private". Floridians and American's in general are just too used to our cars. Shoot eventually I had to end up buying one because the distance of things are too far and in between where buses just don't have routes. Not to mention all across the US we have lost critical bus routes due to the pandemic that many people relied on to get to work. Case in point the WDW unofficial carpool Facebook group. When Lynx cut routes earlier in the year it affected countless cast members in day to day operations from getting to work on time.

Would it be cool to see the train pull into WDW heck yeah it would. But realistically the logistics and long term feasibility of this alongside Cheapick's budget restricting I don't see this being a figure happening anytime soon. The MCO station has lied dormant for more than half a decade already and that cost 215 Million Florida State Tax Dollars. I'm not saying the project has failed, it does get some use. But at 100 per person, just doesn't seem economically reasonable unless airline tickets get so high that tourist prefer the train over a plain to reach Miami.

You seem to be mixing up a bunch of different things.

Brightline was never a government project. The previous Florida High Speed Rail project run by FDOT was completely separate.

Brightline is likely paying for their station at Disney Springs and bus service to it as well. Chapek has no say in its budget becaus and isn’t going to turn down the rent payments.

The multimodal terminal at Orlando International Airport wasn’t built for Brightline. It was built for other projects like SunRail and Florida High Speed Rail. It is also part of the South Terminal Complex that is still very much under construction

 

[ULPO46]

You seem to be mixing up a bunch of different things.

Brightline was never a government project. The previous Florida High Speed Rail project run by FDOT was completely separate.

Brightline is likely paying for their station at Disney Springs and bus service to it as well. Chapek has no say in its budget becaus and isn’t going to turn down the rent payments.

The multimodal terminal at Orlando International Airport wasn’t built for Brightline. It was built for other projects like SunRail and Florida High Speed Rail. It is also part of the South Terminal Complex that is still very much under construction

I know that Brightline was never a government project, State House was against building it. Chapek does have a say because like it or not Disney World is a government entity through RCID and BL/LBV.

Brightline in Boca a go: Site plan for $46 million train station, parking garage passes

The Council will amend the site plan for Boca Raton's downtown public library to allow for the construction of a Brightline station, parking garage.

www.palmbeachpost.com

These aren't private funded stations. Just like the Parking Garages at DS weren't built by Disney money, it came from Florida State Tax dollars. Whilst a majority came from private funding, right of ways and public land are still government owned properties that use tax funds.

 

[lazyboy97o]

I know that Brightline was never a government project, State House was against building it. Chapek does have a say because like it or not Disney World is a government entity through RCID and BL/LBV.

Brightline in Boca a go: Site plan for $46 million train station, parking garage passes

The Council will amend the site plan for Boca Raton's downtown public library to allow for the construction of a Brightline station, parking garage.

www.palmbeachpost.com

These aren't private funded stations. Just like the Parking Garages at DS weren't built by Disney money, it came from Florida State Tax dollars. Whilst a majority came from private funding, right of ways and public land are still government owned properties that use tax funds.

The stations are largely privately funded. In fact, developing adjacent real estate is part of Brightline’s business plan. Your article mentions the city paying for the parking garage (which means the city likely gets to collect fees), not the station. Paying a lease for public property also doesn’t mean the use is paid by taxes. That Disney used the Reedy Creek Improvement District to build the garages at Disney Springs is irrelevant and was done to take advantage of certain funding mechanisms. It doesn’t mean that Reedy Creek Improvement District is in any way required to directly fund any portion of the Disney Springs station.

It makes absolutely no sense for Chapek to interfere with the project through Reedy Creek Improvement District. Disney is Brightline’s landlord which gives them plenty of control over the station, including how it looks and operates, without using the District. Even the US Army has to get Disney’s permission to make changes to the exterior look of Shades of Green. Using the District to try and do an end run around their agreement would also threaten the District’s very existence. But again, to what end does it make sense for Chapek to interfere? The District isn’t obligated to pay for anything and assess fees for things like building code review.

 

[joelkfla]

Exactly it's why this project has been so highly controversial from the start as originally tax payer funding was brought up only to go "totally private". Floridians and American's in general are just too used to our cars. Shoot eventually I had to end up buying one because the distance of things are too far and in between where buses just don't have routes. Not to mention all across the US we have lost critical bus routes due to the pandemic that many people relied on to get to work. Case in point the WDW unofficial carpool Facebook group. When Lynx cut routes earlier in the year it affected countless cast members in day to day operations from getting to work on time.

Would it be cool to see the train pull into WDW heck yeah it would. But realistically the logistics and long term feasibility of this alongside Cheapick's budget restricting I don't see this being a figure happening anytime soon. The MCO station has lied dormant for more than half a decade already and that cost 215 Million Florida State Tax Dollars. I'm not saying the project has failed, it does get some use. But at 100 per person, just doesn't seem economically reasonable unless airline tickets get so high that tourist prefer the train over a plain to reach Miami.

Where are you getting 100 per person?

 

[Twirlnhurl]

The number of people who took transit between MCO and WDW in 2013 was 2.3 million (source).

Pre-pandemic, Lynx served 26 million trips on 84 routes (source), or approximately 304,000 people per route per year.

The origin-destination pair of MCO and Disney is an extremely attractive route. There is squabbling about the exact route and costs of construction--I think that the Convention Center route is likely to be selected and that local funding will pay for a portion of the difference between the two routes. But that is more about the local government adding their goals to a private project.

Brightline is a private project that has added a few bells and whistles with public money at the request of the governments who (in some cases) have the power to stop them from building the private parts of the project. That doesn't make this a taxpayer boondoggle any more than Walmart paying for half the cost of a traffic signal on a nearby road when they build a new supercenter.

A rail connection succeeds or fails on the merits of its service frequency and its geography. It has nothing to do with culture. Americans ride trains as much as any other wealthy people in the places where our density of demand, network shape, service patterns, and cost allow it.

Pre-pandemic, there were more than a dozen flights each way between Orlando and South Florida. Since trains don't require TSA-style security, a train can get you between the two places as fast as an airline, but with more legroom. Is it conceivable that a car-oriented American would switch from airplane to train or car to train for some percentage of those trips? Absolutely.

 

[joelkfla]

The number of people who took transit between MCO and WDW in 2013 was 2.3 million (source).

Pre-pandemic, Lynx served 26 million trips on 84 routes (source), or approximately 304,000 people per route per year.

The origin-destination pair of MCO and Disney is an extremely attractive route. There is squabbling about the exact route and costs of construction--I think that the Convention Center route is likely to be selected and that local funding will pay for a portion of the difference between the two routes. But that is more about the local government adding their goals to a private project.

Brightline is a private project that has added a few bells and whistles with public money at the request of the governments who (in some cases) have the power to stop them from building the private parts of the project. That doesn't make this a taxpayer boondoggle any more than Walmart paying for half the cost of a traffic signal on a nearby road when they build a new supercenter.

A rail connection succeeds or fails on the merits of its service frequency and its geography. It has nothing to do with culture. Americans ride trains as much as any other wealthy people in the places where our density of demand, network shape, service patterns, and cost allow it.

Pre-pandemic, there were more than a dozen flights each way between Orlando and South Florida. Since trains don't require TSA-style security, a train can get you between the two places as fast as an airline, but with more legroom. Is it conceivable that a car-oriented American would switch from airplane to train or car to train for some percentage of those trips? Absolutely.

Mayor Demmings has stated quite emphatically that local money doesn't exist -- not that he doesn't want to spend it, but that it doesn't exist. He had proposed a sales tax increase specifically for transit, but withdrew it due to the economic effects of the pandemic.

Brightline is being built to carry passengers between S. Florida & Orlando, not between MCO & WDW. The Disney stop is intended to increase ridership from S. FL, and eventually from Tampa. They've said that traffic between MCO & WDW, if and when that is built, will be 1 train per hour in each direction. They haven't ruled out sharing the tracks with SunRail, but that would require a major investment and ongoing costs that would require buy-in by all the counties in the district.

 

[lazyboy97o]

Mayor Demmings has stated quite emphatically that local money doesn't exist -- not that he doesn't want to spend it, but that it doesn't exist.

There are other ways that funding could be made available without it being direct from the county. I believe the FAA recently changed rules to allow airports to fund a wider variety of transit projects. The Convention Center, which would benefit, could also provide funding. Something like a tax-allocation district for the area around the Convention Center would make sense as a funding mechanism, especially since it’s those business publicly pushing for the stop.

 

[Twirlnhurl]

Also, the transit sales tax is probably back on the agenda for next year's election (source).

I agree that Brightline is planning to run an intercity service at one train per hour. But there is no chance at all that there will not be a more frequent service in addition to the hourly intercity service (unless the people at Brightline are interested in leaving money on the table).

In fact, Brightline has proposed leasing the tracks to the operator of SunRail to see if they would be interested in operating such a service. This would be a similar arrangement to the one that Brightline has with Tri-Rail in South Florida. Whether or not it goes anywhere is anyone's guess.

Regardless, the marginal cost of running additional trains on a shuttle service pattern between MCO and WDW is quite low. If a moderate fraction of the DME demand exists for this service, I think it is very likely that such a shuttle service will be introduced if the tracks are built. See my calculation of the marginal cost here.

 

[joelkfla]

There are other ways that funding could be made available without it being direct from the county. I believe the FAA recently changed rules to allow airports to fund a wider variety of transit projects. The Convention Center, which would benefit, could also provide funding. Something like a tax-allocation district for the area around the Convention Center would make sense as a funding mechanism, especially since it’s those business publicly pushing for the stop.

The Convention Center is funded by the county, and is more of a money pit than a money maker. It's justified by the economic impact of drawing in events.

The likelihood of I-Drive businesses voting to tax themselves is, IMO, slim to none. Especially Comcast-Universal.

I don't know why the airport board would vote to donate money to a transportation project that primarily benefits private entities, but if they did, I suspect it would take them years to do so. They would probably want a guarantee that someone will operate and pay for the service, since Brightline says they're not interested in doing so.

The longer it takes to build this link, the less likely it is to happen. The SR-417 alignment is pretty much funded and ready to go as soon as everyone signs off.

 

[Twirlnhurl]

The longer it takes to build this link, the less likely it is to happen. The SR-417 alignment is pretty much funded and ready to go as soon as everyone signs off.

I agree that the 417 route could be built faster and is less expensive, and that the odds of it actually being built are much higher. In fact, I have written a letter to Mayor Demmings saying essentially that.

But I think it is more likely that the Convention Center route is the one that is going to be selected.

 

[roj2323]

I agree that the 417 route could be built faster and is less expensive, and that the odds of it actually being built are much higher. In fact, I have written a letter to Mayor Demmings saying essentially that.

But I think it is more likely that the Convention Center route is the one that is going to be selected.

The 417 route have been approved and funded. The convention center route is trying to be rammed through after the fact by universal and International Drive businesses. Interestingly this fight really didn't start until after the new Universal park was announced so that likely has something to do with it.

 

[ULPO46]

Where are you getting 100 per person?

The Brightline train from Miami to Orlando is almost here

The Brightline from Miami to Orlando is almost here. The modern, eco-friendly high-speed rail has officially passed the halfway mark for construction on its extension to Orlando.

www.local10.com

It already cost 50 bucks on normal operating times to go from Miami to Palm Beach. It's about 100 per person they said this when they announced this. No one on a budget is going to pay that much for a 3 hour train ride from Orlando to Miami when it takes just as long on the Florida Turnpike. I love trains, but I'm a Florida Native and covering distances is the norm for us. But this just isn't cost effective. Pre-Pandemic the line was suffering because it just isn't economic to ride from Miami to Palm Beach.

 

[JoeCamel]

The Brightline train from Miami to Orlando is almost here

The Brightline from Miami to Orlando is almost here. The modern, eco-friendly high-speed rail has officially passed the halfway mark for construction on its extension to Orlando.

www.local10.com

It already cost 50 bucks on normal operating times to go from Miami to Palm Beach. It's about 100 per person they said this when they announced this. No one on a budget is going to pay that much for a 3 hour train ride from Orlando to Miami when it takes just as long on the Florida Turnpike. I love trains, but I'm a Florida Native and covering distances is the norm for us. But this just isn't cost effective. Pre-Pandemic the line was suffering because it just isn't economic to ride from Miami to Palm Beach.

If it has a bar/observation car I'd take this in a heart beat either way. Might just do a round trip for a day. The views of people's backyards is fascinating.

 

[lazyboy97o]

The Brightline train from Miami to Orlando is almost here

The Brightline from Miami to Orlando is almost here. The modern, eco-friendly high-speed rail has officially passed the halfway mark for construction on its extension to Orlando.

www.local10.com

It already cost 50 bucks on normal operating times to go from Miami to Palm Beach. It's about 100 per person they said this when they announced this. No one on a budget is going to pay that much for a 3 hour train ride from Orlando to Miami when it takes just as long on the Florida Turnpike. I love trains, but I'm a Florida Native and covering distances is the norm for us. But this just isn't cost effective. Pre-Pandemic the line was suffering because it just isn't economic to ride from Miami to Palm Beach.

People fly between Miami and Orlando. That is the market.

 

[ULPO46]

If it has a bar/observation car I'd take this in a heart beat either way. Might just do a round trip for a day. The views of people's backyards is fascinating.

I've ridden the Miami Palm Beach route. It's not much in fun, but they have a trolley similar to the airlines that comes by and sells you booze and food. I'd assume they'd try and put a bar/observation car for the full Orlando route, 3 hours is a long time to just stare at the back of a seat. Personally when ever traveling to Europe I enjoy the service and observation car it's a much more interesting view than flying from above. But this isn't Amtrak hopefully they can survive come next month when they return to regular service after the C-19 brought them to stop operations.

 

[ULPO46]

People fly between Miami and Orlando. That is the market.

Exactly I mean 100 per person is cheaper than most flights. But still at 3 hours vs 45 mins, it's a hard sell when it's cheaper to just drive to Miami even with the tolls. For a family of 4 that be 400 dollars plus tax compared to lets say 50 dollars on a full tank of regular un-leaded gasoline. I'm not against the project I wish it success, but I just pray this isn't a tax rescue. Brightline loosing the contract with Virgin has had them strapped for cash.