Rumor Higher Speed Rail from MCO to Disney World

[jt04]

When park hopping wasn't available or is limited as it is now, bus service wasn't necessary. But it was quite popular pre-COVID, based on bus traffic I've witnessed.

Of course. Not sure we are discussing the same thing. Are you referring to the internal park to park service? For example, you could board near SSE and get dropped off in Tomorrowland without extra security screening. Are you saying that was popular? Because I heard it ended because it wasn't.

I agree, but they don't need a high speed one. The distance is way to short. A regular speed train would work fine.

These aren't traditional trains you may remember from your past. They reach speed quickly and have well engineered brakes. The technology is very mature and the Brightline trains are of European design and manufacturing. Though built in California. Perfect for the segments under discussion. Like Tampa to Orlando.

 

[jt04]

Again it does need a train just not a high speed train. They would spend all their time in the shop getting new brakes. Train yes, high speed cool, but not necessary. To many stops along the way. High speed works great in lengthy runs, otherwise it is an energy sap of the stopping and starting.

You need to research what Brightline is. Only two stops will be available between Miami and Orlando initially. Non-stop between Tampa and Orlando area if that gets built. It isn't an Amtrak replacement. It is something entirely new for the U.S..

 

[joelkfla]

From Central Florida isn't the distance from the Atlantic to the Gulf only about 130 miles, give or take. By the time a bullet train got to speed from Orlando they would be in the Gulf treading water. If one were necessary I would think that Jacksonville to Miami would be needed. Possible Jacksonville to Tallahassee. Tallahassee to Naples but in my mind high speed from Orlando to Tampa would be a waste of money. Just a small step above a light rail train would be more then enough. Coming from either direction that largest stop is going to be WDW. There are major airports on both coasts. MCO would not be a destination of any consequence from Tampa or Cocoa Beach area. A big one from WDW.

I-4 from WDW to Tampa is 65 mi. The TGV, a HSR technology common in Europe, accelerates to 199 mph in 5.3 minutes within 11.2 mi. That leaves 53.8 mi. to run at top speed, minus distance for deceleration.

The Japanese bullet train accelerates to 170 mph in 3 minutes. It's has a lower top speed, but stronger acceleration.

 

[LAKid53]

Are you referring to the internal park to park service?

I am referring to the Disney transportation buses that run park to park. That I see while waiting at a park's bus depot. Those were discontinued while park hoping was prohibited. But were very popular pre-COVID.

 

[joelkfla]

So possibly as a post-Covid measure?

It isn’t a regular bus service that you can rely on, like resort to parks. Or would advise a first-time visitor to use. It’s a service used when an out-of-the-ordinary situation demands.

No, pre-COVID. I'm speaking mainly from my experience as a bus driver from 2005-2014. During the last few years of my tenure, it was pretty common: just about every morning during spring break and most weekends during the peak summer months. And I heard that it was even more frequent the first few years after I retired.

Not something to rely on every day or all day long, but when it was running it was usually the quickest way to get from TTC to MK.

I don't know how often it runs now, but they added that inside-the-perimeter load zone at MK when security was moved outward, so obviously it was expected to continue at that time.

 

[Goofyernmost]

You need to research what Brightline is. Only two stops will be available between Miami and Orlando initially. Non-stop between Tampa and Orlando area if that gets built. It isn't an Amtrak replacement. It is something entirely new for the U.S..

No, I don't need to research because I don't have a dog in this race. I just am looking at it as a non-fantasy. I understand that car traffic is high between Orlando and Tampa. Just logically thinking that Tampa is a specific location with a specific reason to go there. If it goes direct from Orlando who is going to be riding it. There are many miles and many population centers between Orlando and Tampa. Do they drive to Orlando just to go back the direction they came from in order to catch the train. There is a train in Paris that runs to Disneyland Paris but Paris is a huge city and a tourist destination in itself. Would there be enough traffic coming from Tampa to warrant the need? Even in Paris there are many stops along the way because of population centers. Miami to Orlando another tourist destination to tourist destination. Also with a realistic viewpoint, we suck at passenger rail service and being on time is usually just a dream. European Rail is a finely tuned machine and taken very seriously not just as a novelty but a necessity. High speed rail requires a lot more infrastructure then a regular train which is more designed for stop and go. Other than Orlando's obvious theme park draw, what would be the purpose of a train that only served 2 or three stops? Is there enough Tampa residents needing to go to Orlando and/or enough Orlando residents needing to go to Tampa. They aren't really close enough to be considered daily mutual commuting traffic just between those two places.

 

[TrainsOfDisney]

So possibly as a post-Covid measure?

It isn’t a regular bus service that you can rely on, like resort to parks. Or would advise a first-time visitor to use. It’s a service used when an out-of-the-ordinary situation demands.

No. It was somewhat regular before covid. I remember seeing it more when they lengthened the station dwell times on the monorails. I assumed they were related but not sure.

I am referring to the Disney transportation buses that run park to park. That I see while waiting at a park's bus depot. Those were discontinued while park hoping was prohibited. But were very popular pre-COVID.

That is not what @jt04 was referring to, they were talking about the extra charge bus routes that offered park hopping from within the parks bypassing ticketing and security.

 

[maxairmike]

The physical size of the peninsula east to west is not a great distance. The travel distances get shorter when you add stops.

Tampa-Orlando is a heavily traveled two lane highway. It does not support other routes. High speed rail is a top level premium service that exists along with highways, conventional rail and often air travel. It’s something you build later, not first. It’s also not a commuter service so it will do nothing to alleviate congestion during rush hour. It should tell you something about travel within the state along I-95 that Even when it was part of Florida East Coast Railroad, what is now Brightline opted to cut west and build new tracks to Orlando instead of continuing along their existing tracks to Jacksonville. Even now, continuing to Jacksonville is a possible future phase of development.

Florida absolutely should be investing in rail within and between its cities, but it is/was not going to work by jumping straight to high speed rail. Build out local and inter-city service with an eye towards the future so that high speed is an option in the future.

It's been 3 lanes each way for several years now and still gets heavily congested in spots even without the help of the constant crashes. I don't go to BGT on a whim anymore (well, before COVID) without carefully checking the traffic situation, and I just assume it will always be awful afterwards until I get about 5 exits past 75 coming home. Orlando-Tampa is a way different driving experience than Daytona-Orlando.

 

[jt04]

No, I don't need to research because I don't have a dog in this race. I just am looking at it as a non-fantasy. I understand that car traffic is high between Orlando and Tampa. Just logically thinking that Tampa is a specific location with a specific reason to go there. If it goes direct from Orlando who is going to be riding it. There are many miles and many population centers between Orlando and Tampa. Do they drive to Orlando just to go back the direction they came from in order to catch the train. There is a train in Paris that runs to Disneyland Paris but Paris is a huge city and a tourist destination in itself. Would there be enough traffic coming from Tampa to warrant the need? Even in Paris there are many stops along the way because of population centers. Miami to Orlando another tourist destination to tourist destination. Also with a realistic viewpoint, we suck at passenger rail service and being on time is usually just a dream. European Rail is a finely tuned machine and taken very seriously not just as a novelty but a necessity. High speed rail requires a lot more infrastructure then a regular train which is more designed for stop and go. Other than Orlando's obvious theme park draw, what would be the purpose of a train that only served 2 or three stops? Is there enough Tampa residents needing to go to Orlando and/or enough Orlando residents needing to go to Tampa. They aren't really close enough to be considered daily mutual commuting traffic just between those two places.

the Miami-fort Lauderdale -wpb service was operational and increasingly popular due to word of mouth. Exceeded projections often. It will be back in a bigger way once mco opens and normalcy returns. I guess you'll just have to be convinced by the numbers once open. Because there won't be any case against the service then.

Clearly they have done their due diligence.

There are some great YouTube contributors that have current updates on the expansion. The new segment opens next year or shortly after. Fascinating project. IMO.

 

[marni1971]

There are a couple of things that have hindered our meeting. The first being that since you live across the big pond it is tough to call you up and say I'll be there tomorrow morning at opening. Meet you there! The second largest for me is that we waited to long to make it happen and now my age and health dependability is questionable so I sometimes hesitate to commit to a trip. Are you one of the screened or unscreened faces? Or are those just random unsuspecting guests?

The lack of sleeves (and hopefully chest) is a give away

 

[lazyboy97o]

It's been 3 lanes each way for several years now and still gets heavily congested in spots even without the help of the constant crashes. I don't go to BGT on a whim anymore (well, before COVID) without carefully checking the traffic situation, and I just assume it will always be awful afterwards until I get about 5 exits past 75 coming home. Orlando-Tampa is a way different driving experience than Daytona-Orlando.

You are correct, I mistyped, it is 3 lanes. Part of that congestion is the constant crashes (it seems to effectively be two lanes as one is always blocked) that people cannot easily get around. Development in Florida has been around the highways, so all traffic, local and intercity, is pushed towards them. A good reliable rail connection is definitely something that could be a benefit but it needs connections at the destinations and the volume of people just isn’t there [yet] to support the significantly greater expense of true high speed rail over something like Brightline.

 

[joelkfla]

Also with a realistic viewpoint, we suck at passenger rail service and being on time is usually just a dream.

Yes, we do, but the major reason is clear: Amtrak runs on tracks which are owned and controlled by profit-oriented freight railroads. Not all, but most Amtrak delays result from the freight railroads failing to give passenger trains priority over freight, as they are required to do by a law which is rarely enforced. Or freight trains derailing or breaking down and blocking the line. If you look at the Northeast Corridor, Washington to Boston, where Amtrak owns and controls the tracks, on-time performance is much better.

The second reason is lack of commitment, which leads to lack of funding, which leads to poor maintenance and operating decisions based on lowering costs over optimizing service. Example: the replacement of full dining car service on most trains with cheap, precooked, prepackaged, reheated TV dinners. (The Auto Train is the only exception.) Fortunately, plans have been announced to restore full service on western trains, and there have been rumors that eastern trains will also see the return of full service by the end of the year.

 

[maxairmike]

You are correct, I mistyped, it is 3 lanes. Part of that congestion is the constant crashes (it seems to effectively be two lanes as one is always blocked) that people cannot easily get around. Development in Florida has been around the highways, so all traffic, local and intercity, is pushed towards them. A good reliable rail connection is definitely something that could be a benefit but it needs connections at the destinations and the volume of people just isn’t there [yet] to support the significantly greater expense of true high speed rail over something like Brightline.

The distribution of people along I-4 specifically does create an interesting problem in terms of volume for ridership. It almost needs to be commuter rail for overall volume and to serve the populations along the route as well as a higher speed "express" connection between Orl/Tampa, which is what I think Brightline fills. If the trend of endless sprawl can be slowed and reversed a true high speed solution would probably make sense. But the geography of the Orlando area has also played into the sprawl, so it's a really tough nut to crack in a very developed city that would be better served by growing up instead of out. But then you get into housing as a personal investment vs. a good and all other kinds of fun stuff.

 

[TrainsOfDisney]

Also with a realistic viewpoint, we suck at passenger rail service and being on time is usually just a dream.

Not really. Most rail corridors in the us provide “unsucky” service and run with an on time performance standard similar to other forms of travel.

 

[Notes from Neverland]

Ah. You’re up.

I’ve been trying to arrange a meeting for years. I’m open to meeting anyone from here (and frequently have) including yourself. Even @Goofyernmost and I have mussed it over.

This one would knock your socks off:

View attachment 549698

Rumor has it Martin won't work for Disney until the Disney Look includes sleeveless options.

 

[LAKid53]

No, I don't need to research because I don't have a dog in this race. I just am looking at it as a non-fantasy. I understand that car traffic is high between Orlando and Tampa. Just logically thinking that Tampa is a specific location with a specific reason to go there. If it goes direct from Orlando who is going to be riding it. There are many miles and many population centers between Orlando and Tampa. Do they drive to Orlando just to go back the direction they came from in order to catch the train. There is a train in Paris that runs to Disneyland Paris but Paris is a huge city and a tourist destination in itself. Would there be enough traffic coming from Tampa to warrant the need? Even in Paris there are many stops along the way because of population centers. Miami to Orlando another tourist destination to tourist destination. Also with a realistic viewpoint, we suck at passenger rail service and being on time is usually just a dream. European Rail is a finely tuned machine and taken very seriously not just as a novelty but a necessity. High speed rail requires a lot more infrastructure then a regular train which is more designed for stop and go. Other than Orlando's obvious theme park draw, what would be the purpose of a train that only served 2 or three stops? Is there enough Tampa residents needing to go to Orlando and/or enough Orlando residents needing to go to Tampa. They aren't really close enough to be considered daily mutual commuting traffic just between those two places.

I have traveled between Orlando and Tampa many times on business. Orlando isn't the only tourist spot in Florida.

The planning for rail between Tampa and Orlando has already been done - was part of the 2000 and 2009 proposals. And that included the necessary survey of land, along with legislative authorization to purchase the Central Florida Rail Corridor from CSX.

It's a little over an hour's drive on I-4 between the 2 cities. There are people who live in Georgia and work in Florida. I know because I've worked with them. And most have a good 45 to 50 minute commute each way - and not on an interstate.

And Miami isn't just a tourist destination. It is a major artery to South America via plane and ship. And an international banking center.

And there is more to Orlando than just tourists. Try visiting downtown. Observe the names on those buildings.

There is more to Florida than Walt Disney World. Why else would it be one of the fastest growing states in the country?

 

[TrainsOfDisney]

And there is more to Orlando than just tourists.

There is more to Florida than Walt Disney World.

You will have a hard time convincing some people of this. Good luck.

 

[MichRX7]

I-4 from WDW to Tampa is 65 mi. The TGV, a HSR technology common in Europe, accelerates to 199 mph in 5.3 minutes within 11.2 mi. That leaves 53.8 mi. to run at top speed, minus distance for deceleration.

The Japanese bullet train accelerates to 170 mph in 3 minutes. It's has a lower top speed, but stronger acceleration.

And just a bit longer if it hits a sinkhole.

Seriously though, the Japanese train would take an estimate of what, 20 minutes? I doubt they would run it at full acceleration for that distance. And thinking of acceleration and deceleration times, that is about my guesstimate. I think it would be great, but by the time you get off the train, catch some other form of transportation to the park or resort hotel you want to be at, the drive in your family car plus parking is probably the same time and cost from Tampa.

Wait, do they serve drinks on this train? That might be a deciding factor.

 

[homerdance]

Not really. Most rail corridors in the us provide “unsucky” service and run with an on time performance standard similar to other forms of travel.

This. With the exception of long haul routes ran by AMTRACK that shares tracks with freight trains, passenger rail isn’t that unfavorable compared to other forms of transportation.

 

[TrainsOfDisney]

This. With the exception of long haul routes ran by AMTRACK that shares tracks with freight trains, passenger rail isn’t that unfavorable compared to other forms of transportation.

Even then it’s fine. I’ve been on Amtrak trains that have been delayed. I’ve had flights re-routed while in air because of weather and flights cancelled because of mechanical issues.

Things happen.