Rumor Higher Speed Rail from MCO to Disney World

[DisneyCane]

I think all high-speed rail runs off of overhead electric catenaries. Amtrak's Acela Express does as well.

Shinkansen, TGV, ICE (Germany), CRH (China), KTX (Korea using TGV tech), Spain, THSR (Taiwan using Shinkansen tech), and Turkish (using CRH tech) high speed rail are all electric.

The UK's higher speed HST is diesel-electric, though HS1 and the upcoming HS2 are electric.

Maglev, of course, is all-electric, with the track providing levitation, propulsion, and onboard power via induction.

Diesel electric trains are very efficient, transferring between 30-35% of the energy of combustion to the wheels, but electric trains can be even more "efficient" in the sense that the electricity for their traction motors can be provided directly through the overhead catenary, so:
1. You can generate that electricity more efficiently in a large power plant, though you will have transmission losses. Combined cycle gas can run at 62% efficiency for base loads, plus you're running off of cheap natural gas. It's not worth getting into the operational efficiency of other power generation sources, but they could arguably have even lower operational/fuel cost.
2. The transmission from the catenary and through the transformers runs at 95% efficiency.
3. You don't have to haul around the diesel engine, electric generator, or the diesel fuel.

These efficiencies add up to a lot for high speed rail, where weight matters. I think the weight is less of a factor for freight trains pulling heavy loads, so we'll likely not see significant conversion of freight trains to electric for a long time.

Thanks for all of the info! Very good "cliff's notes" for somebody that has never done much research or put much thought into the technology behind trains.

 

[Robbiem]

Lol with you @TrainChasers!

To add further (what @TrainChasers probably knows even better than me), you don't really need to have separate rails in direction to run express and local. In different sections of the Northeast Corridor, Amtrak runs both their Acela Express high speed rail and their Northeast Regional service on the same tracks. In other sections the Acela has dedicated high speed trackage while the Northeast Regional shares track with NJ Transit or Metro North trains.

A lot of of this is down to timetables you dont need dedicated track all the way just enough places where a fast train can pass a slow train so it doesn’t have to slow down. In japan the Shinkansen bullet trains do this when the slower trains stop in one platform at a station while the faster ones run through a different platform non stop only stopping at main stations

 

[Lensman]

A lot of of this is down to timetables you dont need dedicated track all the way just enough places where a fast train can pass a slow train so it doesn’t have to slow down. In japan the Shinkansen bullet trains do this when the slower trains stop in one platform at a station while the faster ones run through a different platform non stop only stopping at main stations

Yup! "Train approaching, please remain behind yellow line."


Off topic but speaking of videos of trains blowing past you, I found the following video interesting for a couple of reasons.


If you don't have the time to watch more than a few seconds of it, around 4:45 is the closest approach. At any rate, what I found most interesting is the frequency of service. You can read timetables but seeing it realtime gives it more reality.

 

[bpiper]

Virgin Trains announced today that they have started site work for the airport maintenance facility and the 3.5 miles of track on the airport's property.
Also the first shipment of rail was loaded and shipped from Steel Dynamics' Ft. Wayne, Ind. mill on May 16, 2019 for eventual installation at the airport.

https://press.gobrightline.com/showPressRelease/100061720

From the Orlando Sentinal:

https://www.orlandosentinel.com/new...0190521-gxapxfgkzzgahoc6phnccwhtu4-story.html

Virgin Trains USA announced that its team of builders started construction today on the long-awaited tracks between West Palm Beach and Orlando International Airport.

Formerly known as Brightline, the privately owned passenger-rail company is beginning the expansion at the airport with installation of 3 miles of track, signals and related infrastructure and development of 70 acres for a maintenance shop.

The start of additional rail construction from the airport to West Palm Beach “is imminent” the company said in its announcement. Virgin Trains expects project completion and the start of service to be in 2022.

“This monumental infrastructure project will include the laying of 490,000 ties and transporting 2.35 million tons of granite and limestone by 20,000 railcars,” the company said in its statement. “Additionally, approximately two million spikes and bolts will be hammered and put in place over the next 36 months.”

Construction of railway will include about 35 miles of new track from the airport to near Cocoa along the State Road 528 corridor. Another 129 miles of rail along the east coast will require upgrades to 56 miles of existing track and construction of 100 miles of new track.

Virgin Trains began operating last year between Miami and West Palm Beach, a 67-mile trip that takes 74 minutes.

The company also has announced plans to develop service between Orlando’s airport and Tampa with a station at Walt Disney World.

That service from Miami to Tampa has the potential to serve 10 million passengers annually, according to financial reporting last year by Virgin Trains.

The company has said it will spend $4 billion on developing passenger service between South Florida and Orlando, a private investment that will eclipse the nearly $3 billion in public funding of Orlando International Airport’s construction of a new terminal.

According to Virgin Trains, Hubbard Construction Company, Wharton-Smith Inc., The Middlesex Corporation, Granite and HSR Constructors – a joint venture of the transit contractors Herzog, Stacy and Witbeck and Railworks – are the major contractors in the expansion between West Palm Beach and Orlando.

 

[Aries1975]

Virgin Trains announced today that they have started site work for the airport maintenance facility and the 3.5 miles of track on the airport's property.
Also the first shipment of rail was loaded and shipped from Steel Dynamics' Ft. Wayne, Ind. mill on May 16, 2019 for eventual installation at the airport.

https://press.gobrightline.com/showPressRelease/100061720

From the Orlando Sentinal:

https://www.orlandosentinel.com/new...0190521-gxapxfgkzzgahoc6phnccwhtu4-story.html

Virgin Trains USA announced that its team of builders started construction today on the long-awaited tracks between West Palm Beach and Orlando International Airport.

Formerly known as Brightline, the privately owned passenger-rail company is beginning the expansion at the airport with installation of 3 miles of track, signals and related infrastructure and development of 70 acres for a maintenance shop.

The start of additional rail construction from the airport to West Palm Beach “is imminent” the company said in its announcement. Virgin Trains expects project completion and the start of service to be in 2022.

“This monumental infrastructure project will include the laying of 490,000 ties and transporting 2.35 million tons of granite and limestone by 20,000 railcars,” the company said in its statement. “Additionally, approximately two million spikes and bolts will be hammered and put in place over the next 36 months.”

Construction of railway will include about 35 miles of new track from the airport to near Cocoa along the State Road 528 corridor. Another 129 miles of rail along the east coast will require upgrades to 56 miles of existing track and construction of 100 miles of new track.

Virgin Trains began operating last year between Miami and West Palm Beach, a 67-mile trip that takes 74 minutes.

The company also has announced plans to develop service between Orlando’s airport and Tampa with a station at Walt Disney World.

That service from Miami to Tampa has the potential to serve 10 million passengers annually, according to financial reporting last year by Virgin Trains.

The company has said it will spend $4 billion on developing passenger service between South Florida and Orlando, a private investment that will eclipse the nearly $3 billion in public funding of Orlando International Airport’s construction of a new terminal.

According to Virgin Trains, Hubbard Construction Company, Wharton-Smith Inc., The Middlesex Corporation, Granite and HSR Constructors – a joint venture of the transit contractors Herzog, Stacy and Witbeck and Railworks – are the major contractors in the expansion between West Palm Beach and Orlando.

I am not a Floridian, so if my sense of geography is way off, please excuse me. But Cocoa Beach seems very close to Cape Canaveral and Port Canaveral. It makes perfect sense why Virgin would want to lay tracks to support their space division at the Cape. Since this is advertised as passenger service, would we be able to use this train to get to Port Canaveral or close enough to uber to a Disney Cruise?

 

[lazyboy97o]

I am not a Floridian, so if my sense of geography is way off, please excuse me. But Cocoa Beach seems very close to Cape Canaveral and Port Canaveral. It makes perfect sense why Virgin would want to lay tracks to support their space division at the Cape. Since this is advertised as passenger service, would we be able to use this train to get to Port Canaveral or close enough to uber to a Disney Cruise?

There are currently no plans to have a station in Brevard County.

 

[Aries1975]

There are currently no plans to have a station in Brevard County.

Who would build 35 miles of passenger rail without a station at the terminus? Is there another town called Cocoa nearby of which, not being a local, I am unaware?

Source:

VIRGIN TRAINS USA ANNOUNCES CONTRACTORS FOR ORLANDO SERVICE EXPANSION

First rail train for Phase 2 was loaded and shipped from Steel Dynamics' Ft. Wayne, Ind. mill on May 16, 2019

press.gobrightline.com

"Zone Three is approximately 35 miles of rail alignment following the Highway 528 corridor between OIA and Cocoa. Virgin Trains USA has contracted with Granite Construction Company for approximately 300,000 cubic yards of excavation, 5.4 million cubic yards of embankment fill, 865,000 square feet of mechanically stabilized earth retaining wall, 100,000 lineal feet of piling, 18 new bridges, three underpasses, drainage installations, track and signalization installation, and 60 track miles of class VII rail construction."

 

[lazyboy97o]

Who would build 35 miles of passenger rail without a station at the terminus? Is there another town called Cocoa nearby of which, not being a local, I am unaware?

Source:

VIRGIN TRAINS USA ANNOUNCES CONTRACTORS FOR ORLANDO SERVICE EXPANSION

First rail train for Phase 2 was loaded and shipped from Steel Dynamics' Ft. Wayne, Ind. mill on May 16, 2019

press.gobrightline.com

"Zone Three is approximately 35 miles of rail alignment following the Highway 528 corridor between OIA and Cocoa. Virgin Trains USA has contracted with Granite Construction Company for approximately 300,000 cubic yards of excavation, 5.4 million cubic yards of embankment fill, 865,000 square feet of mechanically stabilized earth retaining wall, 100,000 lineal feet of piling, 18 new bridges, three underpasses, drainage installations, track and signalization installation, and 60 track miles of class VII rail construction."

Cocoa and Cocoa Beach are separate nearby towns and neither is the terminus for the line. Orlando International Airport is the terminus (until service is expanded to Tampa).

 

[Lensman]

I am not a Floridian, so if my sense of geography is way off, please excuse me.

Who would build 35 miles of passenger rail without a station at the terminus? Is there another town called Cocoa nearby of which, not being a local, I am unaware?

Source:

VIRGIN TRAINS USA ANNOUNCES CONTRACTORS FOR ORLANDO SERVICE EXPANSION

First rail train for Phase 2 was loaded and shipped from Steel Dynamics' Ft. Wayne, Ind. mill on May 16, 2019

press.gobrightline.com

"Zone Three is approximately 35 miles of rail alignment following the Highway 528 corridor between OIA and Cocoa. Virgin Trains USA has contracted with Granite Construction Company for approximately 300,000 cubic yards of excavation, 5.4 million cubic yards of embankment fill, 865,000 square feet of mechanically stabilized earth retaining wall, 100,000 lineal feet of piling, 18 new bridges, three underpasses, drainage installations, track and signalization installation, and 60 track miles of class VII rail construction."

As the article says, Brightline/Virgin is building new track along the 528 corridor to Cocoa, where it will tie in to the existing Atlantic Coast line that runs along Route 1. They'll be upgrading that line and/or be building some new track in parts for the run down to West Palm Beach. They are taking proposals for an additional station along the Treasure Coast, possibly in Ft. Pierce or Stuart.

Cocoa Beach · Florida 32931

Florida 32931

www.google.com

Cocoa Beach · Florida 32931

Florida 32931

www.google.com

Brightline/Virgin doesn't plan to have a station on the Space Coast, but the SCTPO has proposed a station in Cocoa. Brightline/Virgin has not responded.

Cocoa eyed for possible All Aboard Florida train station

This morning, the Space Coast Transportation Planning Organization chose Clearlake Road over eight proposed Brevard sites.

www.floridatoday.com

As discussed earlier in the thread, their business model depends on developing real estate at their station sites so approval of a station is dependent on the financial viability of developing on land granted/sold/leased to them at the station sites.

 

[Aries1975]

As the article says, Brightline/Virgin is building new track along the 528 corridor to Cocoa, where it will tie in to the existing Atlantic Coast line that runs along Route 1. They'll be upgrading that line and/or be building some new track in parts for the run down to West Palm Beach. They are taking proposals for an additional station along the Treasure Coast, possibly in Ft. Pierce or Stuart.

Cocoa Beach · Florida 32931

Florida 32931

www.google.com

Cocoa Beach · Florida 32931

Florida 32931

www.google.com

View attachment 374474

Brightline/Virgin doesn't plan to have a station on the Space Coast, but the SCTPO has proposed a station in Cocoa. Brightline/Virgin has not responded.

Cocoa eyed for possible All Aboard Florida train station

This morning, the Space Coast Transportation Planning Organization chose Clearlake Road over eight proposed Brevard sites.

www.floridatoday.com

As discussed earlier in the thread, their business model depends on developing real estate at their station sites so approval of a station is dependent on the financial viability of developing on land granted/sold/leased to them at the station sites.

Thank you

 

[mm121]

I am not a Floridian, so if my sense of geography is way off, please excuse me. But Cocoa Beach seems very close to Cape Canaveral and Port Canaveral. It makes perfect sense why Virgin would want to lay tracks to support their space division at the Cape. Since this is advertised as passenger service, would we be able to use this train to get to Port Canaveral or close enough to uber to a Disney Cruise?

A station in cocoa would be nice, but current isn't planned.

There are many areas along the route that could benefit from a station.

While I know the goal is speed and each station slowing down speeding up boarding takes time. Definitely seems like they could offer one or two trains per day to lesser population areas. But unfortunately that's not Virgins current business model.

 

[lazyboy97o]

Replying to these in the appropriate thread.

This is the first time (that I know of) that a non-Disney-operated transportation system (not counting vehicles on roads) will actually cut through Disney property (not just stop at the edge, e.g., Paris, Hong Kong). Hopefully the train will not intrude upon beautiful views from parks/resorts/waterfront areas.

Not the first at all.

Paris would be the example of rail going right into the middle. The station may feel like the edge in relation to the parks when walking, but is very centrally located to the property. If Virgin builds a station at or near Walt Disney World then it will likely be around the area where I-4 goes “through” the property, so very much on the edge.

The Disney Resort Line at Tokyo Disney Resort is also technically considered public transportation and even shows up on Tokyo rail maps.

The subway station at Shanghai Disneyland is also in the middle of the property.

I thought I read light rail in the article, but High Speed Rail is the terminology they used.

http://www.fox13news.com/news/flori...eed-train-route-from-orlando-to-south-florida .

It’s actually higher speed rail, which is slower than high speed rail.

Yeah, but they go under that walkway, don’t they? That would be difficult to accomplish in FL due to the high water table.

The height of the water table is not a constant and it is possible to build below it. Building underground is expensive everywhere so it needs good justification that is hard to do in areas without much density.

 

[Lensman]

It may be too late for high-speed rail in the U.S., but the Federal Railroad Administration finally updated its rail safety regulations to allow European-style high speed rail engines and cars:

FRA Issues Final Rule to Promote Safe and Efficient High-Speed Passenger Rail Operations | FRA

The U.S. Department of Transportation’s (DOT) Federal Railroad Administration (FRA) issued a final rule establishing modern, performance-based safety standards for railroad passenger equipment.

railroads.dot.gov

U.S. Finally Legalizes Modern, European-Style Train Cars — Streetsblog USA

Finally, U.S. trains will no longer have be be designed like “high-velocity bank vaults" thanks to long-awaited changes in federal regulations.

usa.streetsblog.org

Federal Regulators Will Let U.S. Railroads Run Faster, More Efficient Trains — Streetsblog USA

Why are American trains so expensive and yet so slow? One factor that rail advocates often point to is the Federal Railroad Administration and its rail safety regulations -- rules that are finally on the verge of changing.

usa.streetsblog.org

Long Barred from American Tracks, European Train Designs Could Get Rolling by 2015

For decades, transit advocates have complained that the Federal Railroad Administration has burdened rail with outdated safety requirements. Now the FRA is doing something about it.

nextcity.org

But FRA rules had required significant design changes. Most important, American train cars had to be built to withstand 800,000 pounds of frontal impact. Former Amtrak CEO David Gunn complained U.S. trains had to be designed like “high-velocity bank vaults.” Rather than just bulk up, European and Asian trains instead are designed to absorb impacts and avoid collisions in the first place. And they have better safety records.

I used to take the Acela every week for work, so I knew about this problem, but I only recently learned that the FRA regulations had finally been changed. Frankly, I had given up and thought they'd never change.

Acela, Built to Be Rail's Savior, Bedevils Amtrak at Every Turn (Published 2005)

It was called the American Flyer, and its goals were ambitious: to speed train travel between Northeastern cities, steal customers from air shuttles, provide the model for a nationwide fast rail system and help its deficit-prone parent, Amtrak, earn a profit. ''These trains will enable...

www.nytimes.com

 

[MonorailCoral]

Brightline name returns, replacing short-lived Virgin brand as the passenger rail aims for Disney station

The Brightline name is coming back, replacing the name Virgin Trains, according to a financial report issued Friday that also suggests a station at Walt Disney World may open soon after service arrives at Orlando International Airport.

[...]

The bond report also provides details on the proposed extension from Orlando to Tampa, with a stop at Walt Disney World, which has been in engineering and design work since early this year.

“The extension of our system from the Orlando airport to the Disney station would also serve as the first phase of a potential future connection to Tampa,” the bond report states. Subject to permitting and Disney negotiations, “we anticipate opening the Disney station shortly after opening the Orlando airport station.”

[Insert mandatory skepticism due to Coronavirus]

 

[Nubs70]

Brightline name returns, replacing short-lived Virgin brand as the passenger rail aims for Disney station



[Insert mandatory skepticism due to Coronavirus]

Branson is in Big financial trouble.

 

[Rider]

Virgin was probably the most hated train line in the UK so this is probably for the best. Even though Virgin had only a small stake in it the branding was questionable.

 

[the.dreamfinder]

There’s a lot of interest in extending Higher Speed Rail service from DC to Atlanta; passing through Richmond, Raleigh-Durham, and Charlotte. Would be a much better use of limited funds and new, near zero interest debt to pass on Orlando-Tampa and do Orlando-Atlanta.

 

[Thelazer]

There is a lot of folks who commute out to Tampa for work.
Quite a few would do a Miami weekend if they didn't have to drive.

 

[MonorailCoral]

There is a lot of folks who commute out to Tampa for work.
Quite a few would do a Miami weekend if they didn't have to drive.

I'm now in the Tampa area and most of my closer family is in Broward, and while I'd love to be able to casually hop on a higher-speed (than Amtrak) train to see them for the weekend, my previous line of work has given me enough knowledge to know that far more people down the southeastern seaboard of Florida hop in front of trains than ever usually get reported in the media...and I don't want to chance having to deal with a several-hour delay and/or being bussed around the scene.

 

[the.dreamfinder]

There is a lot of folks who commute out to Tampa for work.
Quite a few would do a Miami weekend if they didn't have to drive.

Except Tampa is just one city and Tampa-Orlando wouldn’t be any faster than driving. Whereas Orlando-Atlanta will connect a much larger mass of potential customers and you could go 150+ MPH if you’re building new rails with dedicated right of way.