Rumor Higher Speed Rail from MCO to Disney World

[the.dreamfinder]

Would you care to elaborate?

I know for the highest speeds, it needs to run as straight A's possible, but the same can be said for other high speed transport.

Based on Elon’s white paper, it was estimated Hyperloop would have a 40 mile turning radius.

 

[trainplane3]

I actually take the train from Pittsburgh to Philly whenever I visit friends out there. A round trip flight is $300+ regardless of departure time compared to the $150ish for business class on Amtrak. $300+ is nuts when compared to the cost of flying to Orlando.

Sure the train is 7 hours but the fact I can walk around easily, have stupid huge seats, and really relax is great. No security and seeing things from a different point of view is nice too. They could shave 2 hours off if they built dedicated rail from Pitt to Harrisburg for passenger traffic instead of sharing freight rail. Harrisburg onwards, you're averaging 80mph with stretches of 110. Cruising through Amish country is great (and passing Strasburg RR is neat too).

Point is, if you can deal with the longer travel time then do it. You save some money and will arrive completely rested.

I'd still like to do Amtrak to Orlando one day, just 'cause.

Horseshoe curve...just because!

 

[NobodyElse]

Based on Elon’s white paper, it was estimated Hyperloop would have a 40 mile turning radius.

The link quotes "Jim Powell, co-inventor of the bullet train and current director of Maglev 2000", who is a great authority.

So for more context, in reference to the originally proposed California segment:
"Powell has tried out the same route for a possible "bullet train"-style maglev track, and says the the increased speed makes turns extremely difficult. At high speeds, even a gentle turn pulls passengers to the side. If the loop turns too sharply, the force will make passengers sick. Powell's research finds that passengers can withstand about a tenth of a G in lateral force before causing problems. At 600 mph, that gives the Hyperloop a turning radius of 40 miles. That’s an extremely straight line, and it means the project will likely have to travel through some populated areas."

What he's talking about is a (valid and relevant) comfort issue, at the top speed. Yes, for the longest segment at the highest speed, you would want the straightest route. But near end-points, at slower speeds tighter turn radii are possible.

Hyperloops can turn. Saying they can't is like saying Amtrak trains can't turn. For tighter turns, they slow down. Because of their slower speeds, and physical limitations their routes will generally allow for more and tighter turns than a hyperloop should have, but much wider turns than that of a Smartcar. It's all relative. Different modes of transportation are often more appropriate for different situations and applications than others. It's situational (as others have mentioned above).

(And sorry for my typo. A's = as. I wasn't smart enough to proof-read what my smart phone produced.)

 

[TrainsOfDisney]

We are talking Miami, Tampa, Orlando here. Flying is never going to be “twice as fast.”

All forms of transit have pros and cons. Flying actually takes a long time on either end (not just the tsa stuff. Boarding is a long process on planes compared to trains, and then the shuttle to and from the gate to the runway and the wait for take-off or the wait to get into a gate.... obviously this time varies but all of that time adds up.) On a long cross country trip the fast speeds in the air make up for the time on the ground and in the terminal, but on a short trip other modes of transit can easily beat out air travel.

I’m not sure why anyone would be against more options for getting to Disney! Ha.

 

[raymusiccity]

The link quotes "Jim Powell, co-inventor of the bullet train and current director of Maglev 2000", who is a great authority.

So for more context, in reference to the originally proposed California segment:
"Powell has tried out the same route for a possible "bullet train"-style maglev track, and says the the increased speed makes turns extremely difficult. At high speeds, even a gentle turn pulls passengers to the side. If the loop turns too sharply, the force will make passengers sick. Powell's research finds that passengers can withstand about a tenth of a G in lateral force before causing problems. At 600 mph, that gives the Hyperloop a turning radius of 40 miles. That’s an extremely straight line, and it means the project will likely have to travel through some populated areas."

What he's talking about is a (valid and relevant) comfort issue, at the top speed. Yes, for the longest segment at the highest speed, you would want the straightest route. But near end-points, at slower speeds tighter turn radii are possible.

Hyperloops can turn. Saying they can't is like saying Amtrak trains can't turn. For tighter turns, they slow down. Because of their slower speeds, and physical limitations their routes will generally allow for more and tighter turns than a hyperloop should have, but much wider turns than that of a Smartcar. It's all relative. Different modes of transportation are often more appropriate for different situations and applications than others. It's situational (as others have mentioned above).

(And sorry for my typo. A's = as. I wasn't smart enough to proof-read what my smart phone produced.)

California is the absolute worst example to cite. Their segment turned into such a boondoggle that they've already pulled the plug!!

 

[NobodyElse]

California is the absolute worst example to cite. Their segment turned into such a boondoggle that they've already pulled the plug!!

Sorry. The California example I was referring to was the initial Musk hypothetical hyperloop between Los Angeles and San Francisco used for comparison to other modes of transportation. Not the existing public HSR project.

 

[homerdance]

That won't be true for longer routes. And we will have TSA level security for trains eventually.

Why would they need TSA level for train security?

 

[JUFL2019]

Why would they need TSA level for train security?

Because it is 2019 and the world sucks.

 

[Trackmaster]

While the tickets for a family will cost way more than driving I could see it being successful.

Especially if the build the Disney stop.

I've done day trips of 4 to 5 hours and it makes a SUPER long and stressful day for the driver.

Especially on FL roads as heading to Tampa you have the boring dangerous stretch of Allegator Ally. And heading to Orlando you have long boring stretches on the Turnpike.

I took the Amtrak to Orlando once since was meeting friends so could use there car for local travel and it was actually pretty nice. Arrived rested and relaxed.

4 hour away day trips mean leaving at like 5am and not getting home till like 2am.
Not exactly the ideal for families.

Yeah, but its going to cost billions of dollars. I know that its supposedly a private venture from Virgin, but transportation is never really completely private. Its a great public amenity, but rail is never really profitable from a private sector standpoint. Its going to end up being heavily subsidized by public money, and I'd rather not spend billions to subsidize trips to Disney. I'd rather subsidize commuter traffic to stimulate the economy and take the edge off of rush hour traffic. Its not really my problem, since I live in Tampa, and not Miami anymore, but Miami-Dade really needs some relief with its rush hour. But Tampa does too. Heck, any major city in the country needs some help with its rush hour.

 

[Trackmaster]

We are talking Miami, Tampa, Orlando here. Flying is never going to be “twice as fast.”

All forms of transit have pros and cons. Flying actually takes a long time on either end (not just the tsa stuff. Boarding is a long process on planes compared to trains, and then the shuttle to and from the gate to the runway and the wait for take-off or the wait to get into a gate.... obviously this time varies but all of that time adds up.) On a long cross country trip the fast speeds in the air make up for the time on the ground and in the terminal, but on a short trip other modes of transit can easily beat out air travel.

I’m not sure why anyone would be against more options for getting to Disney! Ha.

Honestly, I don't know why you wouldn't just drive from Miami to Disney. Leave Miami at 5:00 AM or earlier, your local roads, I-95, and the turnpike will be dead, and you'll still get to Disney by rope drop. A lot quicker than any train or plane could get you from a door to door standpoint. And if you're carting a family around, gas and tolls would be nothing compared to ticketing all the people in the car for a train or plane.

 

[Thebolt]

The idea of getting a train direct to the Magic Kingdom, like in Paris or Hong Kong, appeals.
Unfortunately, that isn't what this is offering. This is a train station near the ESPN World of Sports.

The idea is not likely to take a significant segment of traffic onto property unless Disney pushes traffic that way.
If it comes with a new Monorail line to HS and Epcot.... it would be transformative. A new bus station and replacing Magical Express, again would push some traffic to the train station.
If (as seems likely) it remains a taxi/Uber connection from the station to the parks and hotels, then its going to be a small volume of customers who find that more convenient, mostly from the cities to the south on the train line.

 

[TrainsOfDisney]

Honestly, I don't know why you wouldn't just drive from Miami to Disney. Leave Miami at 5:00 AM or earlier, your local roads, I-95, and the turnpike will be dead, and you'll still get to Disney by rope drop. A lot quicker than any train or plane could get you from a door to door standpoint. And if you're carting a family around, gas and tolls would be nothing compared to ticketing all the people in the car for a train or plane.

Well I wouldn’t because I’m typically coming from a cruise to Disney and don’t have a car with me. I don’t want to rent a car, so I choose to take the train. I’ve taken Amtrak from Miami and I’ve also taken brightline as far north as I could and transferred to Amtrak just for fun.

I also regularly take Amtrak to Anaheim when visiting Disneyland.

It seems strange to me how someone can’t understand that people might not want to use their chosen form of transit. I can understand why some people would prefer to fly, drive, or take red coach from Miami to Disney. They all provide good transit options and each have their pros and cons.

You are correct that any form of transportation is subsidized. Interstates, airports, etc. it’s part of living in a civilized country... our taxes help with infrastructure.

 

[mm121]

Honestly, I don't know why you wouldn't just drive from Miami to Disney. Leave Miami at 5:00 AM or earlier, your local roads, I-95, and the turnpike will be dead, and you'll still get to Disney by rope drop. A lot quicker than any train or plane could get you from a door to door standpoint. And if you're carting a family around, gas and tolls would be nothing compared to ticketing all the people in the car for a train or plane.

You must be driving way over the speed limit, from where I am in north Broward Google says 3 hours and 5 minutes, but we all know it always takes longer than what Google says.

The times I've done it it probably takes 4 hours or so as there's usually at least one or two quick stops involved. And that's still not allowing for any traffic jams or accidents.

 

[TP2000]

People also take into account the Enviromental effects when comparing the different modes of transport. An Electrified train will be more environmentally friendly than airplanes and driving (until electric cars take over) so people would use it over flying.

People actually don't do that. There might be a few, but they are a tiny, tiny minority of people living in this country.

I live in SoCal and am politically right of center, but I have dear friends up in Seattle who are left of center. Actually far left of center, as they are a lovely Lesbian couple who do all the right things politically and socially that a lovely Lesbian couple living in leftist Seattle are supposed to do. (We went to college together, and back in those ancient days a gay man like myself and a Lesbian like her had to stick together for safety) And twice a year they fly Alaska Airlines in First Class down to SoCal; either to Palm Springs Airport or to Orange County John Wayne Airport. For the sole reason to get out of the Seattle rain for a bit, to go out to dinner with me, go to Disneyland for a day or two, and just generally sit in the sun and dry out their Seattle rust. They use a huge amount of carbon to do this, but they don't care. It's worth it to get out of the Seattle rain for an upper-middle class Lesbian couple. They'd be ostracized for voting for Donald Trump like I did, but no one in their social circle bats an eye over them pumping tons of carbon into the atmosphere as they shoot themselves 1,500 miles through the stratosphere in a kerosene powered commercial jet twice a year for purely selfish reasons. Their leftist Seattle friends also jet off to Palm Springs, or Maui, or Cabo San Lucas every winter too. I can't blame them; I've lived in Seattle and February there is incredibly dreary.

The funny thing is that when I go up to visit them about once a year, I take the Amtrak Coast Starlight in the Sleeper Car, a 36 hour trip from LA to Seattle that has some of the most stunning views of any train journey in America. I can also get a decent steak in the Dining Car, and a passable and properly made Manhattan in the Lounge Car.

My visits up to Seattle as a Trump voter on the Coast Starlight are a fraction of the carbon use, even with my steak dinner and ham and eggs for breakfast, compared to what they rack up as Hillary voters on a 737 streaking thru the stratosphere to SoCal getting the vegetarian meal in First Class, but we don't mention that at dinner.

In short, not even my friends the Lesbian Hillary voters from Seattle care about the "environmental effects" of different modes of transport. It's just not a thing.

 

[biggy H]

People actually don't do that. There might be a few, but they are a tiny, tiny minority of people living in this country.
…….

….In short, not even my friends the Lesbian Hillary voters from Seattle care about the "environmental effects" of different modes of transport. It's just not a thing.

I sort of realise that at this moment in time but the US is way behind Europe for example in being environmental aware and will eventually catch on bigger numbers.

 

[Trackmaster]

I think that some people just don't realize how hard it is to build rail, how expensive it is, how long it takes to build it, and how expensive it is for users.

Its phenomenal for commuting purposes, and around cities. I'm a huge supporter. If you drive around a major city in short chunks, you're an idiot -- don't get me wrong. I've lived in cities where I've gotten around by subway/Uber/biking/etc. and its awesome compared to driving. But I just don't see high speed rail that covers hundreds of miles for traveling purposes and vacations as a solution that solves anything. I've always thought that. There's just no convincing argument that there's a reason to pay 3x the price to take a train 500 miles when you could fly.

What kills me is that people cite having to get to the airport early as a concern. The ONLY thing that slows me down at the airport is getting there early due to the transpiration to get there (the Uber, the tram, etc.). Once I'm physically in the airport, I just need 10 minutes at most. 5 minutes if I already know the airport well. With my Pre-Check its always a walk-on (don't you just love the Disney terms?), and even without Pre-Check it wouldn't be more than 10 minutes. If they're not doing pre-check it'll be dead anyway. And the reality is that rail has the same paradox of having to get there early due to unforeseen transportation issues are an airport. So to me, you still have to get to a flight or a train departure 45 minutes early. I don't consider the TSA to add any time to my plans at all.

No, taking your car and going has the benefit of you being able to be on your own schedule. My Ubers and subways are on demand, so its the same thing. Again, people are thinking backwards. Cars and planes are great longer distances, and trains are for shorter, local distances.

 

[Trackmaster]

People also take into account the Enviromental effects when comparing the different modes of transport. An Electrified train will be more environmentally friendly than airplanes and driving (until electric cars take over) so people would use it over flying.

Well, remember, when you choose an environmentally friendly option, 7 billion people benefit an infinitesimally small amount... which adds up to a lot, but you yourself making that decision is negligible. When you choose a cheaper, more efficient option, you and your family benefit a lot, but the other 7 billion people pay the cost. So unless you have a lot of altruism, it would be economically irrational to base environmental affects in your decision.

What would be rational would be supporting legislation that heavily taxed dirty fuels and subsidized clean energy to provide a rational incentive to be environmentally conscious.

Even if somebody isn't an expert on economics, people inherently are selfish when it comes to short-term decision making. You can't rely on their altruism to solve any problems.

 

[jt04]

Well, remember, when you choose an environmentally friendly option, 7 billion people benefit an infinitesimally small amount... which adds up to a lot, but you yourself making that decision is negligible. When you choose a cheaper, more efficient option, you and your family benefit a lot, but the other 7 billion people pay the cost. So unless you have a lot of altruism, it would be economically irrational to base environmental affects in your decision.

What would be rational would be supporting legislation that heavily taxed dirty fuels and subsidized clean energy to provide a rational incentive to be environmentally conscious.

Even if somebody isn't an expert on economics, people inherently are selfish when it comes to short-term decision making. You can't rely on their altruism to solve any problems.

I think you just described the path to the slippery slope.

Fortunately Elon Musk is working on market based solutions. Pragmatism works.

 

[TrainsOfDisney]

I think that some people just don't realize how hard it is to build rail, how expensive it is, how long it takes to build it, and how expensive it is for users.

The same could be said for air travel? Orlando internationals current terminal expansion has a 2.8 Billion dollar price tag.

In comparison brightline has spent 2 billion so far, and it is expected to spend another 2 billion to get to Orlando. When you compare a new airport terminal with the total cost of 5 or more stations, track and bridge construction, train sets, etc. I don’t see how it’s so crazy expensive.

Cars and planes are great longer distances, and trains are for shorter, local distances.

I take both trains and planes for long distances depending on different factors. Trains are usually less of a hassle getting to and from my destination since they serve city centers and downtown locations. But obviously they take longer, some will prefer different modes for different reasons, but usually planes will win out for long distances.

For medium distances, trains make a lot of sense. Chicago to Detroit for example, and yes Miami to Orlando!

 

[raymusiccity]

The same could be said for air travel? Orlando internationals current terminal expansion has a 2.8 Billion dollar price tag.

In comparison brightline has spent 2 billion so far, and it is expected to spend another 2 billion to get to Orlando. When you compare a new airport terminal with the total cost of 5 or more stations, track and bridge construction, train sets, etc. I don’t see how it’s so crazy expensive.



I take both trains and planes for long distances depending on different factors. Trains are usually less of a hassle getting to and from my destination since they serve city centers and downtown locations. But obviously they take longer, some will prefer different modes for different reasons, but usually planes will win out for long distances.

For medium distances, trains make a lot of sense. Chicago to Detroit for example, and yes Miami to Orlando!

I think another hassle factor is the inconveniences of loading and trying to maneuver luggage on and off a passenger train. Not much in the way of overhead or underseat room to stow things, too.