Rumor Higher Speed Rail from MCO to Disney World

[Disone]

https://www.thenextmiami.com/brightline-carries-2m-passengers-in-2023-up-67/

I love Brightline but it's not all roses. They are putting butts on seats but definitely have done so by dropping prices. The Orlando extension now starts way below $79 minimum fare it started with. West Palm to/from Orlando has a 50 percent off sale and there is also a BOGO for the other destinations. More recently they reduced their ridership forecasts by 20%.

When the Orlando extension open the trains were also supposed to be lengthened. This did not happen and I'm not sure it's going to happen anytime soon.

Brightline, Florida’s High-Speed Railroad, Slashes 2024 Ridership Forecast

Brightline, the first US private passenger railroad built in more than a century, is on a slow track toward building ridership.

www.bloomberg.com

Whether these are all just teething issues for a new business or signs of a flawed business model remains to be seen

 

[JMcMahonEsq]

He has a lot of good train videos.

He really does. His videos on the Orient Express look like a great time.

But as far as domestic travel, my takeaways from them have always been, "I can really see why there is no logical commercial use for passenger trains."

Take the NYC to Sandord/Disney route as an example, given that you figure most people on this board would be familiar with this type of route, and it is one of Amtrack's busiest. Why in the world, other than to take a free ride and make a you-tube video, would you ever choose this as your method of Transporation?

If you are looking at speed, flying to Florida beats the rail hands down, and its not even close. Figure 2hr flight, give it 4 hour max figuring from door to check in to flight, to getting bags, ect., to at least 24 hours train ride, excluding time to get to station, delays, and then getting Transporation from train station to Disney.

Hell the last 2 times I have driven to Disney, including once solo, we have beat 24 hours handily, clocking in at 16.5 hours and 15.45 hour respectively. And that was door to door.

If you are looking at cost, the videos here generally show people using sleeper cars or sleepettes, both of which i was shocked to learn the price of.
Looking at a trip in April of this year, from NYC to Orlando a coach seat, which i can't imagine being in for 24 hours, is $154, the roomette is 774 and the bedroom is $1445 (all prices pre-tax and any upcharges) and that is ONE WAY.

In comparison flights out of NYC are $124 blue basic, $154 Blue, and $179 Blue extra
As to driving, if you wanted to use your own car, one way would be roughly $132 in gas (assuming 1100 miles, 25mpg, and $3.00 per gallon.) You will have another probably 30 bucks for tolls, depending on time your driving and if your using some of the express lanes through Virgina.

 

[Vegas Disney Fan]

But as far as domestic travel, my takeaways from them have always been, "I can really see why there is no logical commercial use for passenger trains."

Trains only make sense up to about 300 miles.

More than 300 miles and it’s faster/easier to fly. Less than 300 miles and the time saved checking bags, going through security, etc favors the train.

That’s our general rule in Europe anyway, we love taking the train but there’s a point where the ease and comfort of the train loses to the amount of time saved by flying.

 

[Lilofan]

He really does. His videos on the Orient Express look like a great time.

But as far as domestic travel, my takeaways from them have always been, "I can really see why there is no logical commercial use for passenger trains."

Take the NYC to Sandord/Disney route as an example, given that you figure most people on this board would be familiar with this type of route, and it is one of Amtrack's busiest. Why in the world, other than to take a free ride and make a you-tube video, would you ever choose this as your method of Transporation?

If you are looking at speed, flying to Florida beats the rail hands down, and its not even close. Figure 2hr flight, give it 4 hour max figuring from door to check in to flight, to getting bags, ect., to at least 24 hours train ride, excluding time to get to station, delays, and then getting Transporation from train station to Disney.

Hell the last 2 times I have driven to Disney, including once solo, we have beat 24 hours handily, clocking in at 16.5 hours and 15.45 hour respectively. And that was door to door.

If you are looking at cost, the videos here generally show people using sleeper cars or sleepettes, both of which i was shocked to learn the price of.
Looking at a trip in April of this year, from NYC to Orlando a coach seat, which i can't imagine being in for 24 hours, is $154, the roomette is 774 and the bedroom is $1445 (all prices pre-tax and any upcharges) and that is ONE WAY.

In comparison flights out of NYC are $124 blue basic, $154 Blue, and $179 Blue extra
As to driving, if you wanted to use your own car, one way would be roughly $132 in gas (assuming 1100 miles, 25mpg, and $3.00 per gallon.) You will have another probably 30 bucks for tolls, depending on time your driving and if your using some of the express lanes through Virgina.

One continuous rat line to visit the Mouse is EWR to MCO. 9-10 non stops 2 hr flight daily on UA .

 

[TrainsOfDisney]

Take the NYC to Sandord/Disney route as an example, given that you figure most people on this board would be familiar with this type of route, and it is one of Amtrack's busiest. Why in the world, other than to take a free ride and make a you-tube video, would you ever choose this as your method of Transporation?

Well for one, the train stops at both Orlando and Kissimmee, it doesn’t end in Sanford.

For me, the last time I took that route I was going from Disney to a work gig in DC. I was gonna have to get a hotel that night (either in DC or Disney area) so the cost was the same for a sleeper on Amtrak vs. a flight and hotel.

as a bonus, the train station in DC was walking distance to my hotel vs. a long Uber or subway ride from the airport.

 

[TrainsOfDisney]

Trains only make sense up to about 300 miles.

More than 300 miles and it’s faster/easier to fly. Less than 300 miles and the time saved checking bags, going through security, etc favors the train.

lots of variables in that.

Atlanta to Orlando for example is 440 miles. A 90 mph average speed on train would be almost 5 hours.

Flying from Atlanta to Orlando would be around 4 hours total with security, traveling to and from gates, etc. - does that extra 40-60 minutes make it “not make sense”?

I’d say 500-600 miles is the range and ideally you have multiple corridors connecting so if one wants to travel all by train it’s easy and convenient to do so.

At least on a train if you stop on a siding you can still stand up and go to the restroom or get a snack. I’ve had a couple of flights lately where we just sat waiting for our gate or ground crew for almost an hour.

 

[Aries1975]

Take the NYC to Sandord/Disney route as an example, given that you figure most people on this board would be familiar with this type of route, and it is one of Amtrack's busiest. Why in the world, other than to take a free ride and make a you-tube video, would you ever choose this as your method of Transporation?

In my particular case, it was a combination of factors. I was pregnant. I did not want to deal with TSA enhanced screening, being swished into an airplane seat or worse an airplane bathroom, seatbelt extenders, etc., so no plane. It was impractical to stop every 30-45 min for comfort station breaks and generally repositioning, so no car. Also, my husband really likes trains and our then 4 year old daughter was totally in the “Thomas” phase.

Fortunately, we were able to get a bedroom, so I had a private bathroom. The little one (who was free) and I were on the bottom bunk, and my husband was up top. Additionally, the fare included meals, we could move around on the train and there were very few luggage restrictions. When we got off in Kissimmee, we used a car service and made a grocery stop on the way to the Wilderness Lodge.

No, it was not the fastest way to get there, nor the least expensive, but at the time, it was the most practical.

 

[JoeCamel]

In my particular case, it was a combination of factors. I was pregnant. I did not want to deal with TSA enhanced screening, being swished into an airplane seat or worse an airplane bathroom, seatbelt extenders, etc., so no plane. It was impractical to stop every 30-45 min for comfort station breaks and generally repositioning, so no car. Also, my husband really likes trains and our then 4 year old daughter was totally in the “Thomas” phase.

Fortunately, we were able to get a bedroom, so I had a private bathroom. The little one (who was free) and I were on the bottom bunk, and my husband was up top. Additionally, the fare included meals, we could move around on the train and there were very few luggage restrictions. When we got off in Kissimmee, we used a car service and made a grocery stop on the way to the Wilderness Lodge.

No, it was not the fastest way to get there, nor the least expensive, but at the time, it was the most practical.

And comfortable, I can't imagine paying to commit myself to an 18 inch wide space for unknown hours. Flying used to be so effortless but now it is like strapping into a moon launch for hours

 

[JMcMahonEsq]

Well for one, the train stops at both Orlando and Kissimmee, it doesn’t end in Sanford.

For me, the last time I took that route I was going from Disney to a work gig in DC. I was gonna have to get a hotel that night (either in DC or Disney area) so the cost was the same for a sleeper on Amtrak vs. a flight and hotel.

as a bonus, the train station in DC was walking distance to my hotel vs. a long Uber or subway ride from the airport.

How does that math work?

The sleeper car is $1445

Not counting some of the motels along international drive, you can get a Marriot room at flamingo crossing for $117. And taking the median flight of $154, your at $275 vs $1445, that cost isn't even close. Or you could do the comparison to the roomette cost of $774 vs $275, and your still at about 3 times the cost.

And that's assuming you need a hotel. Depending on meeting schedule you could just fly up to DC in morning, have the meeting and then fly back. less time away from home and certainly less cost.

 

[TrainsOfDisney]

How does that math work?

The sleeper car is $1445

I paid like $450. I think flights that I looked at were like $260 plus a dc or Disney hotel was about the same.

And that's assuming you need a hotel. Depending on meeting schedule you could just fly up to DC in morning, have the meeting and then fly back. less time away from home and certainly less cost.

Well… in my case it wasn’t an assumption. I was going to either take the train or get a hotel that night. Nothing else made sense.

 

[lazyboy97o]

How does that math work?

The sleeper car is $1445

Not counting some of the motels along international drive, you can get a Marriot room at flamingo crossing for $117. And taking the median flight of $154, your at $275 vs $1445, that cost isn't even close. Or you could do the comparison to the roomette cost of $774 vs $275, and your still at about 3 times the cost.

And that's assuming you need a hotel. Depending on meeting schedule you could just fly up to DC in morning, have the meeting and then fly back. less time away from home and certainly less cost.

Why are you not including the cost of meals?

But more importantly, why does it matter if others consider it worthwhile?

 

[TrainsOfDisney]

I’d also point out that Amtrak sleeper prices are often around the same price as domestic first class on similar routes.

I go back and fort with a lavish or cheap lifestyle but I’m often comparing Amtrak sleeper to 1st class, not coach.

 

[October82]

How does that math work?

The sleeper car is $1445

Not counting some of the motels along international drive, you can get a Marriot room at flamingo crossing for $117. And taking the median flight of $154, your at $275 vs $1445, that cost isn't even close. Or you could do the comparison to the roomette cost of $774 vs $275, and your still at about 3 times the cost.

And that's assuming you need a hotel. Depending on meeting schedule you could just fly up to DC in morning, have the meeting and then fly back. less time away from home and certainly less cost.

The math you're showing doesn't really reflect the routes trains are meant to serve. Amtrak sleeper trains are marketed towards people who want the experience of a cross-country sleeper train, which makes them much more expensive than they would be if they were intended mainly as transportation. As @TrainsOfDisney mentioned, the right comparison is sleeper cars to domestic first class, where the pricing is comparable.

The prevalence of such routes in Amtrak's network is because Amtrak needs to cover as much geographic area as possible as a result of state and federal funding requirements. Sleeper train passengers (like domestic first class passengers on airlines) are subsidizing the costs of these 'coverage routes' to offer cheaper coach fares. Even with that, Amtrak still lacks the funding to run frequent services on these routes or at high enough speed to generate high ridership and earn a profit on these routes. Plenty of people do take them for shorter distances since they're often the only rural transportation links, which is the main reason they exist. I think low(er) cost sleeper trains that exist in Europe would be a better model for Amtrak in a world where they offer enough frequency for these trains to be useful for more people.

Too much of high(er) speed rail discussion is framed as trains, cars, OR airplanes rather than trains, cars, AND airplanes. In Europe and Asia, all three are used extensively depending on their relative strengths. For intercity transportation on very long routes (>600-800 miles), airplanes will win on cost and time. True high speed rail wins on cost and time for city center to city center routes between large population areas (there are around 60-70 such routes in the US, each of which would also serve smaller population areas en route) while lower speed (so called 'higher speed rail' like Brightline in Florida or Amtrak's Midwest routes) can efficiently serve more exurban areas that airlines usually don't serve directly. For an example of this in the US, see the split between Acela Express services and Northeast Regional ones. Both see high ridership and are the most profitable parts of Amtrak's network.

When people are talking about investing in rail, they're advocating for extending the Northeast corridor model to more places. A southeast corridor through Atlanta and Charlotte, the Texas triangle, the Great Lakes region, CAHSR/Brightline West have all been studied by the FRA and pencil out as viable in standard ridership models. The main economic barrier isn't really service costs, it's that North America hasn't invested in rail service at scale for about a century, and we lack the experience to build cost effectively. That problem is solvable if states or the federal government/Amtrak invest in retaining engineering talent and can build capacity through early projects. I'm optimistic about the Texas Triangle proposals since they've emphasized adopting international standards with that in mind. CAHSR also has some potential to see lower costs in subsequent phases.

 

[TrainsOfDisney]

The sleeper car is $1445

I Just double checked and the sleepers are $620 for Orlando to Washington DC. That’s still more than I paid and a little more than 1st class air but considerably cheaper than $1400! Ha.

The math you're showing doesn't really reflect the routes trains are meant to serve. Amtrak sleeper trains are marketed towards people who want the experience of a cross-country sleeper train, which makes them much more expensive than they would be if they were intended mainly as transportation.

The Silver Star and Silver Meteor don’t fall under that - they are mostly used to transport people up and down the east coast, they are not particularly scenic.

 

[October82]

I Just double checked and the sleepers are $620 for Orlando to Washington DC. That’s still more than I paid and a little more than 1st class air but considerably cheaper than $1400! Ha.


The Silver Star and Silver Meteor don’t fall under that - they are mostly used to transport people up and down the east coast, they are not particularly scenic.

Although I realize this conversation centered on the New York-Florida routes, I was mostly referring to Amtrak's western US routes - the Empire Builder, Southwest Chief, etc. since these are the ones that people are usually talking about when they argue that Amtrak isn't economically viable.

The Eastern US has a high enough population density that international standard intercity rail is more viable. Amtrak still lacks the ability to offer high enough speeds and frequency to really generate ridership. Because of that, a 'southeast' corridor is one of the HSR proposals that I'm most optimistic about.

 

[Vegas Disney Fan]

I’d love if Brightline west did both a passenger train and a car train, similar to how the Eurostar also has LeShuttle for those who want to take their car between France/England.

For those coming from LA to to Vegas it makes a ton of sense, you’ll be dropped off within a couple miles of the Strip hotels so 95% will be able to easily complete their trip with a short Uber ride, for those of us going south though we'll have less favorable transit options once we reach Rancho Cucamonga, I’d love to drive my car onto a train, relax for 2 hours, and then just drive off and complete my journey without having to worry about how I’m going to complete the last 50 miles of my trip, or having to worry about getting stuck in a 5 or 6 hour traffic jam.

 

[JoeCamel]

I’d love if Brightline west did both a passenger train and a car train, similar to how the Eurostar also has LeShuttle for those who want to take their car between France/England.

For those coming from LA to to Vegas it makes a ton of sense, you’ll be dropped off within a couple miles of the Strip hotels so 95% will be able to easily complete their trip with a short Uber ride, for those of us going south though we'll have less favorable transit options once we reach Rancho Cucamonga, I’d love to drive my car onto a train, relax for 2 hours, and then just drive off and complete my journey without having to worry about how I’m going to complete the last 50 miles of my trip, or having to worry about getting stuck in a 5 or 6 hour traffic jam.

How long would it take to load the cars vs passengers only?

 

[Vegas Disney Fan]

How long would it take to load the cars vs passengers only?

LeShuttle says to show up an hour before your scheduled departure to allow for check-in and to get your car on the train.

Not sure you’d save any time over a traffic free day but I’d pay $100 just to avoid the stress of potentially getting stuck in hours of bumper to bumper traffic, plus I’d save half that price in gas anyway.

 

[Disone]

How does that math work?

The sleeper car is $1445

Not counting some of the motels along international drive, you can get a Marriot room at flamingo crossing for $117. And taking the median flight of $154, your at $275 vs $1445, that cost isn't even close. Or you could do the comparison to the roomette cost of $774 vs $275, and your still at about 3 times the cost.

And that's assuming you need a hotel. Depending on meeting schedule you could just fly up to DC in morning, have the meeting and then fly back. less time away from home and certainly less cost.

Depends on the date. Silver star on Saturday April 20th is only $1,016 for two To go from Washington DC to Orlando in a sleeper car.

Amtrak fares do not get taxed

United has an morning flight for 99 per person and that's $266.20 for both with fees and taxes.

That same night at flamingo crossings is 280 with tax at Residence inn by Marriott.

Amtrak is going to include breakfast lunch and dinner. Of course the Resident Inn will include breakfast the next day so let's just include the value of a lunch and a dinner. $20 ahead for lunch (burger chips and soda) . And $40 ahead for dinner (flank steak, salad and wine). $120 in food.

$350 in favor of flying. But for some that is only $175 more person.... And depending on their personal circumstances it may be worth it to some. Someone already mentioned being pregnant and not wanting to be strapped into an airline seat. The freedom of being able to get up and move anytime you want on the train and have more space may have been worth the $175.

FYI if they flew first class it would be 283.10 pp or 566.20 for both. But even that way the money favors flying by about $100.

FWIW.... I have amtraked from Florida three times ( to DC twice and New York once). All three times it was not cheaper. I wanted the sleeper car experience. The nice thing about sleeper car is the travel to becomes part of the actual vacation and that is what I wanted and was willing to pay for.

It's definitely not for everyone though.

 

[Vegas Disney Fan]

The nice thing about sleeper car is the travel to becomes part of the actual vacation and that is what I wanted and was willing to pay for.

This is something we’ve worked on over the years, I’m still often guilty of ”trying to make good time” but we’ve found that the unplanned stops and seeing random things along the journey can be half the fun.