Hating new rides only because they replaced an older one?

General Grizz

New Member
Hank Scorpio said:
Some of you sound like the mother in law that comes round and complains because you moved a picture to another location last time you decorated, and she liked it how it was before even though the old decor looked out of date, was shabby and going yellow around the edges. :lookaroun

You know, Hank, there's one thing I really like about you - and that's your whole Dory spirit. "It'll be okay, it will be alright," and to be honest, that's very comforting to us "Marlins."

But, truth be told, since I've come here, I've been dubbed as a "change-hater," but where is my hate in PhilharMagic or Winnie the Pooh or Buzz Lightyear?

Like Clemson said, it's nothing about change itself, it's about how much progress is put into an attraction - whether symbolically or quality-wise - and when we see a favorite being replaced with black space and less-imaginative approaches (ala Journey into Your Imagination), it's natural to resist this type of change because it hasn't progressed.

And while the reality is that Disney is a Company that doesn't put its investment into creativity or special detail anymore, I still find the possibility to be there in the future. Take a look at Pixar. . . maybe it will be a lesson to all of us. :D
 

BeachClubVillas

Well-Known Member
I agree with Grizz on this one. I am most upset with Disney lately for two main reasons (althought there are others):

1. I feel that Disney management is removing attractions that the entire family could experience together and replacing them with thrill rides that only some members of a given family will ride. I am not saying this is true for every family, don't get me wrong. Horizons and WoM, for example, could be enjoyed by a family with both teenagers and younger children. Test Track and Mission Space, with their height requirements and thrills, are rides that small children and those who do not like thrill rides cannot go on. So, you end up with part of a family sitting on a bench waiting for the rest of the family to ride. Or, worse, a family splits up. Which is exactly what Walt didn't want. He wanted a place where "a Daddy and his daughters could have fun together," remember? It seems to me at least that Disney management has forgotten this.

2. Also, going on to what Grizz and others have said in this thread, I agree that Disney has replaced the classics with thrill rides that lack theming and quality. The queue lines at Test Track and Mission:Space are gaudy and cheap looking compared to the queue line from Horizons. Even the rides themselves have less theming than the older rides had, at least in my opinion. This has all been said before, so I'm not going to repeat it all.
 

General Grizz

New Member
BeachClubVillas said:
Or, worse, a family splits up.

While 40 year old Daddy and 10 year old daughter *can* experience M:S and TT together and have fun, you do have a valid point. For example, everytime I pass by M:S the non-thrill groups sit outside (usually women, daughters, and children). While M:S and TT add a new balance to Epcot, they don't necessarily add more to the Disney/family experience. . . but that being SAID. . .

There's such an easy solution! With the space available, add another family-style attraction to Test Track and Mission: Space, possibly being post-shows, with all of the details and gags of a Disney attraction. This really can't go wrong. And maybe "change-haters" can once again embrace Disney alterations, if the company/park management can focus on the values which make Walt Disney World separate and special from any other place in the world.

But this ultimately goes to the recent bottom-line focus: bring in a thrill ride, and spend as little as possible. I mean, isn't it sick when Imagineers have such a small budget that they can't realize up their wildest dreams anymore?

Just my two cents. :)
 

Shaman

Well-Known Member
KevinPage said:
Since when did Walt Disney design rides for Teens and Adults? The whole slant of Disney was attractions everyone could ride, especially at The Magic Kingdom. AE was out of place for the demograhpics of the park.

People can't have it both ways. They complain that Disney is making too many thrill rides, yet when the attempt to remove one to make it more "family friendly" they get complaints :brick:

:D :D
Very true, but....

Since when did Disney design a ride just for kids...or a park for that matter just for kids (seems like Tomorrowland its becoming an extension of Fantasyland)....MK has become a park for little kids...as Epcot has become a park for adults...there should be a balance in each park...this is one of the problems the parks face today...the lack of balance...

While I was VERY dissapointed to see AE replaced...I think there is enough left from the old attraction in SGE, plus they've added effects to improve the experience of the previous attraction, SGE may be the first replacement in a long time to do that...if M:S wouldn't be the shadow of a bigger concept, that it is...perhaps it would've been better than Horizons...I still love M:S...but is it better than the overall experience of Horizons...I think thats a tougher question to answer....anyways just my opinion.
 

General Grizz

New Member
objr said:
MK has become a park for little kids...as Epcot has become a park for adults...there should be a balance in each park...this is one of the problems the parks face today...the lack of balance...

To be honest, that is kinda scary. Wonders of Life and Imagination and Kabaret/Food Rocks, while more child-friendly than Test Track and Mission Space, and Soarin, are all now left in the dust.

I think Disney needs to step back and look at the success of the Magic Kingdom. One one level, it's nostalgia. On the next, it's the classics. The thrills do not overtake the classics, but they are there to complement a great balance and add new methods of story. But all throughout, there is quality and originality. But you're right, instead of classic showmanship (i.e. CBJ or Cranium Command that adults and kids BOTH can pick up on), these successes are slowly being replaced in the face of kid-or-adult-targeted attractions - i.e. kids show in Goofy's Jamboree. (And would this bring the concept of a "Disney" theme park full circle into the eventual need for a place where the "parents and the children can have - genuine - fun together?")

But we need to realize that the Magic Kingdom is the most popular tourist destination in the WORLD because of its balance and variety of attractions for the whole family. . . and now that I think of it, objr, you are very accurate in what you're saying. Just like the films are adult and the 2-D films for kids, and ABC and Disney Channel are for adults and kids, respectively.

So this is a company-wide problem (that doesn't seem to have lead to any great success). This is kinda freaky.
 

mrtoad

Well-Known Member
BeachClubVillas said:
I agree with Grizz on this one. I am most upset with Disney lately for two main reasons (althought there are others):

1. I feel that Disney management is removing attractions that the entire family could experience together and replacing them with thrill rides that only some members of a given family will ride. I am not saying this is true for every family, don't get me wrong. Horizons and WoM, for example, could be enjoyed by a family with both teenagers and younger children. Test Track and Mission Space, with their height requirements and thrills, are rides that small children and those who do not like thrill rides cannot go on. So, you end up with part of a family sitting on a bench waiting for the rest of the family to ride. Or, worse, a family splits up. Which is exactly what Walt didn't want. He wanted a place where "a Daddy and his daughters could have fun together," remember? It seems to me at least that Disney management has forgotten this.

2. Also, going on to what Grizz and others have said in this thread, I agree that Disney has replaced the classics with thrill rides that lack theming and quality. The queue lines at Test Track and Mission:Space are gaudy and cheap looking compared to the queue line from Horizons. Even the rides themselves have less theming than the older rides had, at least in my opinion. This has all been said before, so I'm not going to repeat it all.

Althought I agree about the adversion to change stuff as I have noted above in this thread, the point about having to have families split up on the newer rides has held true for a long time though it is not new. Space Mountain has been around since mid70s and it has been that was since then. Many families need to split for that one. Also non-thrill rides cause the same thing, like the tea-cups. Until my daughter's first trip I have been unable to get a taker to join me on them.
 

General Grizz

New Member
mrtoad said:
Althought I agree about the adversion to change stuff as I have noted above in this thread, the point about having to have families split up on the newer rides has held true for a long time though it is not new. Space Mountain has been around since mid70s and it has been that was since then. Many families need to split for that one. Also non-thrill rides cause the same thing, like the tea-cups. Until my daughter's first trip I have been unable to get a taker to join me on them.
And this is true, but when family attractions are REPLACED by thrills, that's when we get less and less of "balanced" rides. (i.e. 2/3 of Future World East has a height requirement needed to ride!)
 

ClemsonTigger

Naturally Grumpy
Birdbrains?

General Grizz said:
And did anyone just realize that nearly everyone on the first page of this thread had a bird for his avatar? :lookaroun

So does that make this a flippin' the bird kind of topic? :lookaroun :eek:
 

DarkMeasures

New Member
Original Poster
General Grizz said:
While 40 year old Daddy and 10 year old daughter *can* experience M:S and TT together and have fun, you do have a valid point. For example, everytime I pass by M:S the non-thrill groups sit outside (usually women, daughters, and children). While M:S and TT add a new balance to Epcot, they don't necessarily add more to the Disney/family experience. . . but that being SAID. . .

There's such an easy solution! With the space available, add another family-style attraction to Test Track and Mission: Space, possibly being post-shows, with all of the details and gags of a Disney attraction. This really can't go wrong. And maybe "change-haters" can once again embrace Disney alterations, if the company/park management can focus on the values which make Walt Disney World separate and special from any other place in the world.

But this ultimately goes to the recent bottom-line focus: bring in a thrill ride, and spend as little as possible. I mean, isn't it sick when Imagineers have such a small budget that they can't realize up their wildest dreams anymore?

Just my two cents. :)

Well, I was backstage behind Mission Space and there was about 50 or less to the service road, but I would like to see the post-show be fixed in the near future. Hopefully it will be done on Mission Space's tenth. Now Grizz, I do agree with you mostly on what you have said in this topic, but I don't agree with you on the lines for MS, and TT. I think they are incrediably detailed but I can't compare them to Horizons because I never been on it. I do know though that TT's line is much better than WoM because of WoM's generic que rooms.

And to note, someone mentioned why AA's aren't used on Mission Space's line. What the ride is trying to capture is reality, you may not be going into space but you are in a real training center. This is the reason the control room is visible.

And finally,
General Grizz said:
And did anyone just realize that nearly everyone on the first page of this thread had a bird for his avatar?
Except for me.... but my guy has been running since shortly after I joined WDW. I refuse to change my Avatar.
 

dxwwf3

Well-Known Member
KevinPage said:
Since when did Walt Disney design rides for Teens and Adults?

I believe they were called the Matterhorn and Space Mountain :lol:

They great thing about Disney is there is something for everyone. Do you think that adults without kids run to Dumbo first thing in the morning? I think there has to be balance. I have never complained about the addition of thrill rides in the Magic Kingdom or any other park. I'm not saying that there needs to be a huge upside down roller coaster in the MK (because there doesn't need to be one), but attractions like Space Mountain and Alien Encounter are needed in the MK. Epcot needs more things for kids and the MK needs more things for adults. I'm all about BALANCE. Remember there was a very successful PG-13 rated "Walt Disney Pictures" movie released last year. And there was a very successful G rated "Walt Disney/Pixar" movie released last year. You can have it both ways.
 

ClemsonTigger

Naturally Grumpy
Opportunities

I like the idea of multi-theme approaches that Grizz is suggesting.

There's such an easy solution! With the space available, add another family-style attraction to Test Track and Mission: Space, possibly being post-shows, with all of the details and gags of a Disney attraction. This really can't go wrong. And maybe "change-haters" can once again embrace Disney alterations, if the company/park management can focus on the values which make Walt Disney World separate and special from any other place in the world. General Grizz

So what you are saying is that we could add a family component on to Test Track, say, I don't know....maybe call it "World of Motion", and after MS add on a dark ride about space exploration and living in space...I don't know, what should we call it....maybe Horizons?

(I know Grizz has suggested this before)

Epcot had almost taken this kind of approach with Imagination, The Land and Wonders of Life. Imagination had three distinct areas - movie, dark ride and interactive play area, The land has the water ride, Kitchen Kabaret and I forget what else...now it will have Soarin', the water ride and possibly something else creative (possible right direction), Wonders of Life has (d) many different areas, Body Wars classifying as thrill, Cranium Command (loosely dark ride) and others. But the "others" were pretty shallow, wasted a lot of space and as Body Wars (Star Tours in a second park) got old, there wasn't the diverse draw.

If Disney could rethink within the same theme, they could present some sort of dark ride or thrill ride to complement the theme and bring back the audience. A dark tongue and cheek ride (pun intended) through the body could be much more entertaining than "Fantastic Voyage"...and what the heck, throw in a DNA coaster. Reintroduce the rest of Imagination, and use that format (multipurpose entertainment facility)

Oh, while we're on this subject, do add a new weather pavilion replacing the very large Odessy bathroom facility.
 

Brer Rabbit

New Member
I would have to say that change is good but also bad. when they got rid of Mr. Toad's Wild Ride to make it a ride with Pooh that was a dumb mistake to me. i love Mr. Toad's Wild Ride and it was a fav for all ages. Now Pooh only gets little kids to come. Same thing they r doin to AE. AE is a ride for the teens and up. with is something they need in MK cuz they need to try to get all ages happy. Now that they r makin it into SGE it will be more for a smaller age group. It may be the same as AE but i will tell u one thing it will probly be les scary cuz of it dealin with a smaller age group. BUt we still should try the ride out it may be good but nit the same as AE.
 

Expo_Seeker40

Well-Known Member
I welcome change. I don't welcome change that really had no need to replace a former attraction entirely.

Test Track has nothing to do with our future. It doesn't give us hope, it teaches us very little, and hardly inspires. Why is test track there? I would think something atleast along the lines of Test Track would be at MGM. A more trilling Motor Stunt Show based attraction, if you will.

World of Motion had a purpous. I saw that ride with my family, and I saw the transcenter. It was like Spaceship Earth, with a far more toned down, and comical look as to how far we have come, where we are, and where we literally might go with mobility. The transcenter was also a great interactive and fun place for the whole family with multiple exhibits. Many have felt, including myself that World of Motion could have been saved, and reworked entirely on the second level, if the pavilion could hold that weight.

The current Transcenter, if it's even called that, hardly has anything futuristic to it.

I actually do think of Mission:Space as a new spin off to Mission to Mars. I like Mission: Space, I don't think it has the best themeing, I think they should have done a new what was his name? Mr. Johnson or Tom Morrow state of the art AA with a futuristic control pannel would have been nice.

Horizons was "dah bomb" at EPCOT Center, it was every thing in FUuture World combined, let alone with a sequal to the Carousel of Progress. The only thing that ws really dated was some of the sets, and technology used t present that ride. That all could have been updated. I truly think the "ohhh the buildings got to come down" is a bunch of bull. Disney didn't want that attraction any more. General Motors decided to keep the World of Motion pavilion and Transcenter room, atleast we still have that, but since General Electric left Horizons in 1994, is was far game, cause the ride was all in Disney's hands. So they chuck out the insides, and slowly demolish the outside, really if they were so concerned about the building wouldn;'t they have saved the ride? Nope, just an excuse to shut people up and get the ride out of there, building and all.

You see though I like Test Track and Mission: Space, Test Track doesn't belong at Epcot, let alone it's hardly thrilling as they promote it, and Mission: Space does belong, but was not worthy enough to replace Horizons.

As far as tomorrowland goes Rocket to the Moon, Flight to the Moon, and Mission to Mars were all family attractions. You still had circle vision across the way, the carousel of progress, incarnations of if you had wings, the skyway, WEDway peoplemover, restaurants, gift shops, and speed way. Only Space Mountain and AE were/are thrill rides. Disneyland tomorrowland's is deplorable. That was a place of concerts, and teen fun, now a baren area for kids. We are fortunate enough to have our tomorrowland intact enough as it is. So we will have to see how stitch goes. Remember there will now be 5 versions of an attraction that took place at the rocket theater. Now 4 of those 5 will once again be family style, only one, AE, was not. It is still the same two theaters, and pre show outlines, just different presentation, and sets, and updated technology.

There is already a variety in MK. You still have space mountain, and that was always the onyl thrill in tomorrowland for many years, and with AE gone, it's like back to mission to mars family style with stitch in its place.

Epcot was not and should not be a place of thrills. MGM and Animal Kingdom all have potentional for that, and there is still room for atleast another park.
 

General Grizz

New Member
Brer Rabbit said:
I would have to say that change is good but also bad. when they got rid of Mr. Toad's Wild Ride to make it a ride with Pooh that was a dumb mistake to me. i love Mr. Toad's Wild Ride and it was a fav for all ages. Now Pooh only gets little kids to come. Same thing they r doin to AE. AE is a ride for the teens and up. with is something they need in MK cuz they need to try to get all ages happy. Now that they r makin it into SGE it will be more for a smaller age group. It may be the same as AE but i will tell u one thing it will probly be les scary cuz of it dealin with a smaller age group. BUt we still should try the ride out it may be good but nit the same as AE.
I wouldn't say Pooh is a failure; it has a HUGE attendance rate. It would have been cool to see some of the statues be animatronics, but unlike the other dark rides, it has some pretty cool special effects. Even better to have Pooh's Hunny Hunt, but hey, we can't ask for everything. :D

Perhaps they should make Pooh in Disneyland have two tracks.

P.S. I love your avatar, although it is a little flipped :p
 

mrtoad

Well-Known Member
General Grizz said:
And this is true, but when family attractions are REPLACED by thrills, that's when we get less and less of "balanced" rides. (i.e. 2/3 of Future World East has a height requirement needed to ride!)
I agree 100%, I was just stating that those types of attractions are not new to WDW. Especially now being a parent of a young child, the all inclusive attractions are more important to me. Not sure why that is considering my daughter had me just meet and greet the characters or watch Cinderella's Surpise Celebration 90% of the time anyway. :)
 

mrtoad

Well-Known Member
Brer Rabbit said:
I would have to say that change is good but also bad. when they got rid of Mr. Toad's Wild Ride to make it a ride with Pooh that was a dumb mistake to me. i love Mr. Toad's Wild Ride and it was a fav for all ages. Now Pooh only gets little kids to come. Same thing they r doin to AE. AE is a ride for the teens and up. with is something they need in MK cuz they need to try to get all ages happy. Now that they r makin it into SGE it will be more for a smaller age group. It may be the same as AE but i will tell u one thing it will probly be les scary cuz of it dealin with a smaller age group. BUt we still should try the ride out it may be good but nit the same as AE.


Let me start this by saying I loved Toad, it was one of my favorites, hence my user name. When talk of it going away started, I was heart broken. I went to the save Mr. Toad website (I think it still exists), I wrote Disney a letter about it. I posted the flyers you could print out from the save him site. And what I learned in the process was, as much as I loved it, not everyone did. I loved it from childhood, and it was still a classic in my mind. But anyone I spoke to who had been to WDW for the first time as an adult did not like it and neither did their children. I think it did not transcend well to modern day park visitors. I can't comprehend that because it was still a classic in my mind, but this is what I gathered from those I spoke to about it.

In the end Pooh is a good ride, I agree with Grizz that it could have been spiced up a bit but as a whole it is good and it is very successful. I would have liked it put somewhere else and keep Toad for me and all the Toad lovers, but I understand why they did it.

Now if they ever tear down the Haunted Mansion, I will need therapy. :p
 

Brewski

New Member
I look back on pic's of Horizons and WoM, and they look very dated, it was just a matter of time before crowds began to dwindle at Epcot. So they had to get those rides out. Sponsers may have also been complaining, that profits were going down in the area because of the boring rides.
 

garyhoov

Trophy Husband
This is really interesting, because I like seeing fresh new attractions. I like Alien Encounter but don't love it, and Lilo & Stitch is one of my favorite Disney animated films (I'm not inluding Pixar).

I wouldn't mind if they gutted the building and created a completely new attraction involving Stitch, but if (as I'm assuming ) they're keeping a very similar ride and just changing the characters that doesn't seem right to me.

The characters in Alien Encounter were very uniquely "Disney World" created specifically for the ride. I can understand that people who are less fanatical than some of us would rather see characters they know from a film, but the fact that I could only see the AE characters at Disney World gave it a special feeling - like being home.

For one of the first times that I can remember, I think I'm going to find this change not sitting well with me.





Good Lord! Am I turning into Griz in my old age?!:lookaroun :lol:
 

General Grizz

New Member
garyhoov said:
This is really interesting, because I like seeing fresh new attractions. I like Alien Encounter but don't love it, and Lilo & Stitch is one of my favorite Disney animated films (I'm not inluding Pixar).

I wouldn't mind if they gutted the building and created a completely new attraction involving Stitch, but if (as I'm assuming ) they're keeping a very similar ride and just changing the characters that doesn't seem right to me.

The characters in Alien Encounter were very uniquely "Disney World" created specifically for the ride. I can understand that people who are less fanatical than some of us would rather see characters they know from a film, but the fact that I could only see the AE characters at Disney World gave it a special feeling - like being home.

For one of the first times that I can remember, I think I'm going to find this change not sitting well with me.





Good Lord! Am I turning into Griz in my old age?!:lookaroun :lol:
And you just showed the importance of balance: original vs. film characters. Tricky, ain't it?

(I think Gary got a Grizzly-tick bite. Looks like the symptoms are showing. Let me know when you grow fur. :lookaroun )
 

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