Yeah, that one is pretty bad, too. Even worse when you think about what used to occupy that space.
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Great watch: The Senseless Death of EPCOT
- Thread starter Beacon Joe
- Start date
Yeah, that one is pretty bad, too. Even worse when you think about what used to occupy that space.
Goofy Ninja
Well-Known Member
Does every park have to be the same? I think you can still maintain a balance with IP's and theming. It doesn't have to be just shoehorn here, shoehorn there.
bhg469
Well-Known Member
It doesn't have to be but the current, and past regime has clearly stated that they will continue to use the pre-existing IPs.. They have zero faith in their creative department to do something original.
It's part of the "de-risk" strategy Iger implemented. Go with the familiar and avoid the new. For movies, it was implemented with more live action remakes and sequels instead of more original stories. Not that they avoided new stories altogether, but the focus was placed where it was for a reason. You would have thought that D+ would have forced them into more original content, but sadly it's been a steady stream of familiar.
Anyway... SSE's ride system needs an overhaul. Period. And the ride needs a new script, one with intelligence like in the past, not lowering itself to be understood by the lowest common denominator like the current one. And this is the one that's been around the longest.
Mickeynerd17
Well-Known Member
Any updates to the script will simplify it further, especially in this day and age. The misnomer that education in a theme park is boring is very strong.
Just when you thought things couldn't get any dumber... Bob & Josh say, "Hold our craft beers that we
I was fortunate enough to visit 90s EPCOT Center often as a kid. Twice per year every year of the decade. That place is etched onto my soul. EPCOT Center was by far my favorite park at WDW, and my favorite place on Earth.
I am excited about the direction of the park. I support the “Neighborhood” initiative and renaming those sections of the park. The version of the park we will have for its 40th is vastly more inspiring than the version we had for its 30th.
EPCOT is still my favorite park, still my favorite place.
I am excited about the direction of the park. I support the “Neighborhood” initiative and renaming those sections of the park. The version of the park we will have for its 40th is vastly more inspiring than the version we had for its 30th.
EPCOT is still my favorite park, still my favorite place.
Mickeynerd17
Well-Known Member
I understand your point, but I have to strongly disagree.
Science and technology, the Future World of EPCOT, is rooted at the core of the park's existence. Simply renaming it to neighborhoods just masks what it truly is and is more covers over the rotting corpse of the 90's EPCOT.
I have trouble with the new direction simply on the grounds of a lack of overarching themes and story. The original park was clearly a World's Fair concept with each ride, shop, building, planter, water feature, preshow, and postshow playing into the overarching theme of human achievement, intercultural cooperation, and optimism that our knowledge and skills, if used wisely, could create a better world for future generations, even with all the human problems that come with. When every attraction tied into the theme, even in the 2000s through the early 2010s, you could feel the power of the place as you walked past Spaceship Earth towards the Fountain of Nations. The music and experiences combined to make a truly unique experience one couldn't get anywhere else.
Nowadays, that feeling is gone like dust in the wind. EPCOT is a different, strange world without the sense of optimism it once had, except the entrance. The entrance alludes to something magnificent, but once past SSE the truth becomes apparent: It's just another theme park. The overarching theme is minimal at most, and the park will still suffer the same issues from the 90's: hodge-podge structures and rides except with three decades worth of layers instead of two.
I still love EPCOT to pieces and will to the day I die, which is why I care and am concerned about the park so much. We need visually stunning, powerful, soul-wrenching experiences that touch at our inner existence.
Ultimately, if you want to completely remove the science and technology from EPCOT, you have to raze what's left of Future World, Spaceship Earth included, erase Figment's existence, and start from scratch. Oh, and change the name because it won't be EPCOT anymore.
I don't mean to be blunt, but I don't know how else to communicate the gravity of the situation. It's why the entire Evolving EPCOT sub-forum is filled with posts upon posts of sad, disappointed people. It's because we know what's been lost, and is being lost, and what's coming just simply isn't the same.
Sorry for the long thread, but this topic matters a lot to me.
scheat
Active Member
Have always had a bit of a hard time explaining what has been lost from EPCOT Center, but your post just absolutely nails it. Disappointed and sad for what was lost rings true.
I still remember the awe I felt the first time I visited and how I couldn’t believe there was a place like this that existed.
When I go now I find myself staring at some of the original infrastructure that’s still there(walls, benches,etc) and it always brings me back. Thanks for posting.
Well said. That gets at something that totally dumbfounds me about what the company is doing to that park.
Trying to not dwell on all the negative developments in the overall company or in the parks and resorts, I stayed away from here and all WDW "news" outlets for months prior to our most recent trip so I wouldn't be negative going in. Having not kept up on what's been going on there, I didn't even realize until after we left EPCOT that Future World was officially gone and the sections renamed. OK, the "World _____" theme is workable, and I can see the possibility of successful implementation. As a fresh start, not shoehorned somewhere.
"World Nature" makes sense and and everything there jives with that theme except for Figment and "Soaring." Though Soaring could be reworked to bring it in line with an exploration of nature.
"World Celebration" - again not a bad theme, though conceptually how that differs from something like, say, "World Showcase" I couldn't tell you. I'm sure Disney had somebody write up a whitepaper about it that makes as much sense as the Disney Springs backstory. But along with shops and fast food, "World Celebration" is just Spaceship Earth, which is a celebration of history, discovery, science, applied science, and engineering. Would that not be more appropriate for someplace called "World Discovery?" The planned Moana waterpark which will be in "World Celebration" - wouldn't that thematically make more sense in "World Nature?"
"World Discovery" - "Mission: Space" seems to fit appropriately. "Test Track?" It's a stretch. And what got my jimmies rustled was when I realized that they not only inserted a comic book ride into EPCOT, but apparently as part of some bizarre attempt to retheme that section as "World Discovery." What in the actual heck? What the heck does that ride or its absurd preshow story have to do with discovery? Human discovery, to be specific, which is what EPCOT was all about. As stupid as the backstory was, that comic book and ride appear to be about things that happen to a single human after aliens somehow discover Earth. Humans are passive and along for the ride, as these benevolent aliens share stuff with us. Humans in receipt mode, not discovery mode. What does that ride which has no business being in EPCOT to begin with have to do with "World Discovery?"
"World Showcase" - classic, I still love it. Elements of it, anyway. It's still gorgeous to look at. Or would be gorgeous to look at if the company hadn't blocked it from sight with that giant ugly stargate and hulking black taco barges. And that's been dumbed down. The celebration of Mexican history and culture has been dead for a long time. Ditto to Norway. At least Ratatouille was additive as far as I know. I still don't know why they chopped down all the treecover in the Japanese gardens and paths leading up to the Yakitori House. That area was an absolute oasis. Despite all the changes in the country pavilions, they are all still great places to simply poke around, relax, and enjoy the atmosphere --- unless you happen to be there during one of the now seemingly neverending music & alcohol festivals. Totally ruined the atmosphere everywhere.
I just don't get any of it. I think I've said it here, but given how culturally (and not just in the US) there has been a positive shift in perspectives in which we celebrate and promote science, technology, engineering, and math - along with applications and the art of discovery - Disney corporate which seems to now be a regular American corporate culture eternally chasing after what's popular and "now," had EPCOT sitting on its platter, ready to go not just to exploit that cultural shift and interest, but also to step up and help drive and inspire future generations along those paths.
But we get this muddled mess. And in the near future, I see nothing surviving of EPCOT's past mission. Even though that mission is still viable, popular (how'd you miss that, Chapek, you big dummy?), and necessary. And was a proven formula for them. Oh well.
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And that would make more sense than what they appear to be doing.
Epcot82Guy
Well-Known Member
That was my thought. If we could back this whole thing up... Redo World Discovery into World Exploration, focused on how space travel inspires us - fantasy and reality (like you suggest). This then has M:S and Cosmic Rewind. Rework Play! to be Planet Play! or something - retooling the theme to have famous looks at space throughout history hosted by Disney characters. This would give a nod to Horizon's intro with a huge (but still potentially appropriate) IP nod.
This would then let you put Test Track into the Spine area, where it more naturally fits and balances out IMAG (i.e. both are about innovation and creativity - one imaginative, and one tangible).
You would still want to divide the areas a bit more, and I would argue JoW's placement goes into World Nature. But, it would start to make much more sense.
I feel all of this too. But really EPCOT Center hasn’t been what it used to be for longer than it ever was. If that makes sense? Like this Epcot hasn’t been the EPCOT we glorify with nostalgic posts on here for like,…20 years?? Maybe longer depending on where that cut off line is for you.
So knowing that it hasn’t been its true self for so long, and recalling how bad we’ve had it, and how bad it could have ended up, I’m excited about the new. It’s not totally idealistic but it’s an improvement.
I truly appreciate this personal analysis and thank you for recognizing the elements of EPCOT 3.0 that you can get behind. One little thing; iirc, Figment actually part of World Celebration, not Nature.
Mickeynerd17
Well-Known Member
Let me rephrase that statement for you.
Take this:
Demolish everything except the four centrifuges and Space 220, then build this structure around the centrifuges (yes I looked it up the footprint will definitely fit them):
Add some launch towers and exterior decor while connecting Space 220 with some new paint. Make it look like a massive launchpad.
Then, make an excellent queue, pre-show, add two PPF ride systems at the exit of the centrifuges (one on each side) that would create an experience kinda like this:
And make an excellent postshow. This alone would make an insanely better space pavilion without taking up an entire section of the park. Leave the other structures to other themes.
Mickeynerd17
Well-Known Member
Not really. I'd argue that Epcot stopped being epcot around 2019. Some would say 2017, but energy is one ride, not the whole picture IMHO. Sure, the "quality" of experiences went down since the 80s, but epcot in spirit didn't die.
As long as the general theme of inspiring guests through education and wonder was conveyed through all the attractions, the park's spirit was still fully alive.
I really should say the park's spirit is in cardiac arrest, because we still have rides like Test Track, SSE, LWTL, and to a lesser extent figment and seas, trying to educate guests about something, but it's not the official goal anymore, and that's what's bothering people so much.
It really grinds my gears when people trash the epcot of the 2000's and 2010's as a whole for "not embodying the original park" or for being "lesser". Complete hogwash. Sure, the rides may not have been as visually or technically stunning (especially imagination), but they still supported the park's mission of education through entertainment and were still fun to ride. WDO sadly didn't have the financial means of replicating the immense quality of the rides they were replacing, with the notable exception of Test Track.
The 1990's concept art samples point to this. The horizons replacement would've been a similar, probably value-engineered version of what I posted above. Imagination (the rare pieces we've found) would've had a more in-depth look into the institute and probably not as many cheap gags. The Land had quality of life updates but overall kept the same focus. The only other exceptions would be Seas and WoL, both of which were on the tail end of changes with one getting a decently quick redo with IP (which wasn't a bad redo) while the other died in silence.
Ultimately, just accepting what we have now and believing that epcot died 20+ years ago is a defeatist attitude IMHO. Quality should never be sacrificed for anything. We'll get more and more of the same content unless there's a push for something better. There must be a constant redefining of what kind of experience an attraction can produce.
That's what Walt would do, I think.
EPCOT Center died January 9, 1999.
Generic Disney Theme Park themed with random movie IP and whatever random things current management wants is what's there now. I go to enjoy SSE and LwtL, primarily, along with a show or two in WS. But it's just Epcot in name only at this point.
Generic Disney Theme Park themed with random movie IP and whatever random things current management wants is what's there now. I go to enjoy SSE and LwtL, primarily, along with a show or two in WS. But it's just Epcot in name only at this point.
Change “2000’s” to “1990’s” and you have the same argument we used to use ten years ago.
Mickeynerd17
Well-Known Member
True.
People tend to not realize what they had until it's gone and what's replaced it isn't as good (at least in their opinion), hence why people dissed (at the time current) EPCOT compared to the old but now at least want it back or better. I know that's not true for all attractions but there are always people resistant to change.