Great Movie Ride and the apparent lack of Kubrick

Matt_Black

Well-Known Member
If you're going to add Kubrick, the Monolith scene from 2001 would be the way to go, I'd think. Every thing else seems too far outside of Disney's comfort zone, even when you consider that DHS is PG or PG-13 to the Magic Kingdom's G.
 

lebeau

Well-Known Member
Stoller directed that one, but he's also been the man who's co-written the last two Muppets films, including the recent Muppets Most Wanted. The latter hasn't enjoyed such box office success sadly, with the film taking a disappointing $70m worldwide. Hurt by competition from the likes of Rio 2 and Mr Peabody And Sherman, the film's take is a long way shy of the $165m grossed by The Muppets two years earlier.

http://www.denofgeek.com/movies/the...er-on-the-possibility-of-another-muppets-film

Facts are a female dog, ain't they? :D

What facts are you referring to? Everything you quoted describes a box office disappointment. Not a flop. Not a bomb. Not a disaster. Just a sequel that failed to live up to the success of the original. Heck, your quote even uses the word "disappointing".

Thank you for proving my point. ;)

Are studios in the business to break even??

Absoultely not. The movie was unquestionably a disappointment. But Muppets is going to turn a profit eventually. Not nearly as big as Disney was hoping for. But a movie that turns a disappointing profit is not a flop. It's a disappointment.

The word "flop" is overused. It should be reserved for the likes of John Carter. Using it every time a movie comes up short at the box office robs the term of its meaning.
 

rael ramone

Well-Known Member
My thoughts:

Most of the 'animatronic' scenes belong, in the order they appear in the ride. Mary Poppins is appropriately placed among the musicals. The only thing that could be replaced is the Tarzan section, takes up a large section of the rides footprint, and just isn't as iconic as everything else there...

What could use a refresh is the easiest part to refresh: the movie montage. I think it has *too much* Disney (or to be more exact, Touchstone) stuff. While it can never be a full montage of all of what film has to offer (due to Universal stuff being off limits), theres so much missing. An EON Bond film for one. No Peter Sellars. IIRC correctly no Jack Lemmon or Jack Nicholson. No Caddyshack. No Monty Python. No Hard Days Night. And the Christopher Reeve Superman needs to be reinserted.
 

Magenta Panther

Well-Known Member
What facts are you referring to? Everything you quoted describes a box office disappointment. Not a flop. Not a bomb. Not a disaster. Just a sequel that failed to live up to the success of the original. Heck, your quote even uses the word "disappointing".

Thank you for proving my point. ;)



Absoultely not. The movie was unquestionably a disappointment. But Muppets is going to turn a profit eventually. Not nearly as big as Disney was hoping for. But a movie that turns a disappointing profit is not a flop. It's a disappointment.

The word "flop" is overused. It should be reserved for the likes of John Carter. Using it every time a movie comes up short at the box office robs the term of its meaning.

Welp, TV Guide and other websites have had no trouble terming the film a "flop". Quibble about semantics if you like. But the film has NOT turned a profit, not even a "disappointing" profit. A film, roughly speaking, needs to make twice its investment just to break even. The Muppet film's budget was 55 million. It's made 70 million worldwide. Do the math. IT'S A FLOP.
 

lebeau

Well-Known Member
John Carter was a good movie, and it did well on home video. "Flop" should be reserved for The Lone Ranger.

Heads rolled over JC. Whether it was good or not is irrelevant. It was a flop.

Welp, TV Guide and other websites have had no trouble terming the film a "flop". Quibble about semantics if you like. But the film has NOT turned a profit, not even a "disappointing" profit. A film, roughly speaking, needs to make twice its investment just to break even. The Muppet film's budget was 55 million. It's made 70 million worldwide. Do the math. IT'S A FLOP.

Not a flop.

There's still income to be made. It's not semantics. The movie disappointed at the box office. It certainly wasn't a hit. But it wasn't a flop or a bomb either.

I looked up the TV Guide article. You keep referencing headlines from the opening weekend. The movie had relatively small drops in the weeks that followed. Find me an article where Muppets Most Wanted is called a flopped after it completed its theatrical run.

And those headlines are meaningless. They are supposed to grab your attention. They are misusing the term almost as badly as you are.
 
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Matt_Black

Well-Known Member
There's still income to be made. It's not semantics. The movie disappointed at the box office. It certainly wasn't a hit. But it wasn't a flop or a bomb either.

Indeed. Again, MP is conveniently and perhaps deliberately ignoring that many films like this do much better on home entertainment than they do in theaters.
 

lebeau

Well-Known Member
Indeed. Again, MP is conveniently and perhaps deliberately ignoring that many films like this do much better on home entertainment than they do in theaters.

It has to be deliberate. He keeps pointing to headlines from the movie's disappointing opening weekend no matter how many times I discredit that as not telling the whole story.

MP can be a very good poster. But we all know he is completely irrational on the subject of Muppets and certain other properties.
 

Matt_Black

Well-Known Member
MP can be a very good poster. But we all know he is completely irrational on the subject of Muppets and certain other properties.

He's SO irrational, in fact, that maybe he's a Muppet himself using reverse psychology on us to boost DVD sales. Ingenious!
 

Magenta Panther

Well-Known Member
I looked up the TV Guide article. You keep referencing headlines from the opening weekend. The movie had relatively small drops in the weeks that followed. Find me an article where Muppets Most Wanted is called a flopped after it completed its theatrical run.What facts are you referring to? Everything you quoted describes a box office disappointment. Not a flop. Not a bomb. Not a disaster. Just a sequel that failed to live up to the success of the original. Heck, your quote even uses the word "disappointing".

Thank you for proving my point. ;)

Well, at least you used the word "failed". That's a step in the right direction. There may be hope for you yet. :D

What I proved is what a deep state of denial you Muppet apologists are trapped in. It's kinda pitiful. You stick your fingers in your ears and hum, oh, I don't know, The Muppet Show theme in order to shut out the sad news of the demise of your little felt and foam rubber gods. :D

The Den of Geek article chose to use the word "disappointment". But THIS article chose to call the puppet movie what it is: A FLOP:

At the press day for Neighbors, Steve spoke with director Nicholas Stoller, and their conversation turned to The Muppets and Muppets Most Wanted, both of which Stoller co-wrote. During the interview, Stoller talked about not knowing why Muppets Most Wanted flopped, but more importantly, he talked about the possibility of bring the Muppets back to television.

http://collider.com/new-muppets-tv-show-news/

"More importantly", LOL. That's what ya call "spin". ;)
 
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lebeau

Well-Known Member
Well, at least you used the word "failed". That's a step in the right direction. There may be hope for you yet. :D

What I proved is what a deep state of denial you Muppet apologists are trapped in. It's kinda pitiful. You stick your fingers in your ears and hum, oh, I don't know, The Muppet Show theme in order to shut out the sad news of the demise of your little felt and foam rubber gods. :D

The Den of Geek article chose to use the word "disappointment". But THIS article chose to call the puppet movie what it is: A FLOP:

At the press day for Neighbors, Steve spoke with director Nicholas Stoller, and their conversation turned to The Muppets and Muppets Most Wanted, both of which Stoller co-wrote. During the interview, Stoller talked about not knowing why Muppets Most Wanted flopped, but more importantly, he talked about the possibility of bring the Muppets back to television.

http://collider.com/new-muppets-tv-show-news/

"More importantly", LOL. That's what ya call "spin". ;)

I didn't want to do this. But you have left me no choice. Let's look at the numbers of the entire series.

The least successful Muppet movie of all times was Muppets in Space in 1999. With a production budget of 24 million, it grossed less than 17 million domestic. Even with the foreign grosses, it failed to recoup its production costs. That's what you call a flop. Muppets in Space opened at #10 at the box office. Everything you have said about Muppets Most Wanted was true of Muppets in Space. Still, it did not kill the franchise. It merely put the movies on ice for a while.

The next lowest grossing Muppet movie was Muppets Take Manhattan in 1984. The production budget isn't listed. But it opened at #5 and grossed over $25 million domestic. That's more than Muppets in Space made and that was in 1984 dollars. This is what you would call a disappointment just like Muppets Most Wanted. The result was that there would not be another Muppet Movie for 8 years. Also the franchise went off in a different direction including a return to TV. History will most likely repeat itself.

Next on the list is Muppet Christmas Carol. After Muppets Take Manhattan, the movie series went dormant for 8 years. When the Muppets returned to the big screen, it was to tell a classic story with a Muppets spin. The budget was a mere 12 million dollars. It opened at #6 which isn't great. But it went on to gross a respectable $27 million and has been a moneymaker on video ever since.

Coming in at #5 on the list is The Great Muppet Caper which was the follow up to the original Muppet Movie. It opened at #5 and grossed less than half of what the first movie made. Hey wow. That sounds a lot like the similarly themed caper sequel, Muppets Most Wanted. It's almost like Disney was trying to repeat history. The Great Muppet Caper was a box office disappointment that has done well on video.

The fourth most successful Muppet movie was Muppets Treasure Island in 1996. It followed in the footsteps of Muppet Christmas Carol by retelling a family classic with a Muppet spin. It opened at #3 which is great by the standards of the series and grossed almost $35 million. That's basically a base hit. Enough to get Muppets in Space greenlit. We all saw how that turned out.

That brings us to the third highest-grossing movie in the series which is Muppets Most Wanted. It opened up at #2. Anyone who expected it to open in the top spot must not have known the series history or what else was opening that week. The production budget was $50million which is more than is wise to spend on a Muppet sequel. Domestically, it grossed just over $50 million. That's not good. No doubt about it. But it's not a disaster either. Most movies are neither hits nor flops. Muppets Most Wanted fits in that category. It also grossed around $20 million overseas. That is not pure profit. Counting heavy marketing, the movie probably still hasn't turned a profit. But it most likely will on video. Obviously, Disney is not going to be happy with the performance of the movie. But to a very large degree, they have themselves to blame. They opened the movie in a death slot. Frozen was still drawing audiences, Mr. Peabody and Sherman was about to open and most importantly it got steamrolled by Divergent. That's too much competition for a Muppet sequel. Especially when the marketing didn't distinguish it from any of the previous movies. Frankly, it looked like The Great Muppet Caper remake.

Next we have The Muppet Movie which grosses over $65 million in 1979. That makes the first movie in the series one of only two unqualified hits. Which is completely understandable. At that time, the Muppets were at the peak of their popularity. They had been building an audience on TV for years. A Muppet movie was an event at the time.

Finally, we have 2011's The Muppets. Although it is the highest-grossing Muppet movie with over $88 million domestic and over $165 million world wide, I suspect Disney was hoping for more when they relaunched the series. I think they were aiming for $100 million domestic. It had been over a decade since the last Muppet movie and that made The Muppets an event again. But as we saw with The Great Muppet Caper in 1981, a Muppet sequel won't draw the same kind of numbers.

Frankly, the Muppets are not movie stars. They were designed to be on TV. They were made with the specific intent of satirizing what was on TV at the time. The Muppet Show was the perfect vehicle for the Muppets during the era of variety shows. But the characters weren't designed for a movie franchise. They don't have their own story to tell. They can be used to satirize just about any genre, but that works better on TV than it does in movies.

I don't think you are going to find anyone who is going to claim that Muppets Most Wanted was a box office success. It wasn't. But it wasn't a flop either. In fact, it's right in line with what any reasonable person would have expected.
 
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acishere

Well-Known Member
Well, at least you used the word "failed". That's a step in the right direction. There may be hope for you yet. :D

What I proved is what a deep state of denial you Muppet apologists are trapped in. It's kinda pitiful. You stick your fingers in your ears and hum, oh, I don't know, The Muppet Show theme in order to shut out the sad news of the demise of your little felt and foam rubber gods. :D

The Den of Geek article chose to use the word "disappointment". But THIS article chose to call the puppet movie what it is: A FLOP:

At the press day for Neighbors, Steve spoke with director Nicholas Stoller, and their conversation turned to The Muppets and Muppets Most Wanted, both of which Stoller co-wrote. During the interview, Stoller talked about not knowing why Muppets Most Wanted flopped, but more importantly, he talked about the possibility of bring the Muppets back to television.

http://collider.com/new-muppets-tv-show-news/

"More importantly", LOL. That's what ya call "spin". ;)
Most entertainment sites are going to use that term because things being hits or flops are more interesting to read than "it did meh." It isn't always the most honest and ethical section of journalism. They embellish a lot. I looked up the budget and it is about $50 million before marketing. It grossed $50 million in the US and $20 million worldwide. Adding marketing, it either broke even or is at a minor loss. How it does on home entertainment is going to really decide things, but I can't call something a flop that has a chance of breaking even. It's not a success story, but you are exaggerating it's loss because you don't like the franchise.
 

lebeau

Well-Known Member
By the way, the definition of a "flop" is a total failure. A lot of people use the term incorrectly. You will won't have to look hard to find people misapplying it. Don't be one of those people.
 

lebeau

Well-Known Member
Most entertainment sites are going to use that term because things being hits or flops are more interesting to read than "it did meh." It isn't always the most honest and ethical section of journalism. They embellish a lot. I looked up the budget and it is about $50 million before marketing. It grossed $50 million in the US and $20 million worldwide. Adding marketing, it either broke even or is at a minor loss. How it does on home entertainment is going to really decide things, but I can't call something a flop that has a chance of breaking even. It's not a success story, but you are exaggerating it's loss because you don't like the franchise.

We have a winner.
 

Magenta Panther

Well-Known Member
Most entertainment sites are going to use that term because things being hits or flops are more interesting to read than "it did meh." It isn't always the most honest and ethical section of journalism. They embellish a lot. I looked up the budget and it is about $50 million before marketing. It grossed $50 million in the US and $20 million worldwide. Adding marketing, it either broke even or is at a minor loss. How it does on home entertainment is going to really decide things, but I can't call something a flop that has a chance of breaking even. It's not a success story, but you are exaggerating it's loss because you don't like the franchise.

No, you're in denial because you like the franchise. It has not broken even. It won't break even. Not a chance.
 

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