News Gotta Pay2Play: Paid FP on the way!

[Sirwalterraleigh]

As in - Youre a local, can go whenever you want, get FP last minute, go on slow days, evenings, mornings, every day. I cant see buying another round of anything.

Scratch that - forgot the lifestyler contingent.

They were messing with you...

Disnephiles go again and again and again and ride the same stuff over and over again. It's like a job or something...

It's one of reasons they get away with adding very little for long stretches.

At local parks...rides are labeled old. You put Mickey on it...and the fans promote it to others as "classic"

Just one of those things

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

Which parks are closing earlier? Epcot has closed at 9 except in peak seasons as long as I can remember.... Animal Kingdom has *expanded* into nighttime hours. DHS has, but thats because it's pretty much a shell of it's former self at this point and demand just isn't there. I suspect when SWGE opens next year that DHS will be expanding it's hours once again. That leaves MK. And I remember a time when MK regularly closed at 7 in off-peak times, not even having fireworks (granted that was 25-30 years ago, but still). I have zero problem with the parties. The dates for them are known well in advance, if you don't like it just don't go to the park that day. Simple.

Park hours are a reflection of crowds...larger crowds, larger hours. There was big variation in times when seasonal travel was in effect. That's basically over...the magic kingdom could stay open and be busy till 11 pm every night of the year...but they don't do that. They maintain shorter hours often to save on operational costs...which make the experience more uncomfortable for everyone.

 

[kong1802]

Which parks are closing earlier? Epcot has closed at 9 except in peak seasons as long as I can remember.... Animal Kingdom has *expanded* into nighttime hours. DHS has, but thats because it's pretty much a shell of it's former self at this point and demand just isn't there. I suspect when SWGE opens next year that DHS will be expanding it's hours once again. That leaves MK. And I remember a time when MK regularly closed at 7 in off-peak times, not even having fireworks (granted that was 25-30 years ago, but still). I have zero problem with the parties. The dates for them are known well in advance, if you don't like it just don't go to the park that day. Simple.

Here's a quick sampling of just June over the years. Definitely a decrease in hours at MK:

June 1-30th 2011 - 439 Included Hours + 36 EMH = 475 (Wow, EMH)
June 1-30th 2012 - 426 Included hours + 35 EMH= 461 (Wow, EMH)
June 1-30th 2013 - 431 Included hours + 13 EMH = 444
June 1-30th 2014 - 461 Included hours + 11 EMH = 472
June 1-30th 2015 - 469 Included hours + 12 EMH = 481
June 1-30th 2016 - 425 Included hours + 14 EMH = 439
June 1-30th 2017 - 396 Included hours + 13 EMH = 409

 

[mikejs78]

Here's a quick sampling of just June over the years. Definitely a decrease in hours at MK:

June 1-30th 2011 - 439 Included Hours + 36 EMH = 475 (Wow, EMH)
June 1-30th 2012 - 426 Included hours + 35 EMH= 461 (Wow, EMH)
June 1-30th 2013 - 431 Included hours + 13 EMH = 444
June 1-30th 2014 - 461 Included hours + 11 EMH = 472
June 1-30th 2015 - 469 Included hours + 12 EMH = 481
June 1-30th 2016 - 425 Included hours + 14 EMH = 439
June 1-30th 2017 - 396 Included hours + 13 EMH = 409

I agreed about MK. I questioned the assertion that hours had decreased in 'all the parks'.

They definitely have reduced EMHs.

 

[Brad Bishop]

If everyone's in the FP+ line, does the FP+ line become the standby line?

Also, if everyone finds that they have to pay to ride this basically loops back around to something close to the old ticketing system.

You can pay $50 to ride 2 rides whenever you like in the park today which you paid $125 to enter or you can go wait in a 3hr line... Also, all normal FP+s are gone because we sold them.

 

[bhg469]

Which parks are closing earlier? Epcot has closed at 9 except in peak seasons as long as I can remember.... Animal Kingdom has *expanded* into nighttime hours. DHS has, but thats because it's pretty much a shell of it's former self at this point and demand just isn't there. I suspect when SWGE opens next year that DHS will be expanding it's hours once again. That leaves MK. And I remember a time when MK regularly closed at 7 in off-peak times, not even having fireworks (granted that was 25-30 years ago, but still). I have zero problem with the parties. The dates for them are known well in advance, if you don't like it just don't go to the park that day. Simple.

Epcot definitely was open later years ago. What kind of attitude is that? Don't like our hours, dont even come? Some people, like myself have to plan around work. And sometimes I am just down there by myself and can only go to the parks one day.

You're defending trends that are bad for the typical guest.

 

[Tom P.]

I have read this entire thread -- yes, all 18 pages -- and I can see reasonable arguments on both sides. But here's what I keep coming back to in my mind:

My family and I are able to afford to go to Walt Disney World. We did ten days there in September, in fact. Having the financial ability to do that is something that many, many people do not have. Many others do. Does that mean that Disney is "catering to the rich" because only a certain percentage of the populace can afford a Walt Disney World vacation? Is it unfair that my family and I can go while others cannot?

On the other hand, when we did our trip, we stayed at Art of Animation. Staying Club Level at the Contemporary or the Grand Floridian would be a nice experience, but it is something that our family can't afford. There are many people who are able to do that, though. Is Disney "catering to the rich" because we can't afford to do that? Is it unfair that my family and I can't go stay there while others can?

Bottom line is that the entirety of a Disney vacation is a luxury item. Some people can afford it, some can't. Within those who can, some can afford one level of amenities and some can afford another. I don't see how allowing people to buy more FastPasses is any different than allowing someone to buy tickets to a party when others can't get into the park or charging more money to eat at a signature restaurant or charging more for a deluxe resort than a value.

 

[asianway]

Here's a quick sampling of just June over the years. Definitely a decrease in hours at MK:

June 1-30th 2011 - 439 Included Hours + 36 EMH = 475 (Wow, EMH)
June 1-30th 2012 - 426 Included hours + 35 EMH= 461 (Wow, EMH)
June 1-30th 2013 - 431 Included hours + 13 EMH = 444
June 1-30th 2014 - 461 Included hours + 11 EMH = 472
June 1-30th 2015 - 469 Included hours + 12 EMH = 481
June 1-30th 2016 - 425 Included hours + 14 EMH = 439
June 1-30th 2017 - 396 Included hours + 13 EMH = 409

Wow - did you pull that off a TDO powerpoint?

 

[njDizFan]

I have read this entire thread -- yes, all 18 pages -- and I can see reasonable arguments on both sides. But here's what I keep coming back to in my mind:

My family and I are able to afford to go to Walt Disney World. We did ten days there in September, in fact. Having the financial ability to do that is something that many, many people do not have. Many others do. Does that mean that Disney is "catering to the rich" because only a certain percentage of the populace can afford a Walt Disney World vacation? Is it unfair that my family and I can go while others cannot?

On the other hand, when we did our trip, we stayed at Art of Animation. Staying Club Level at the Contemporary or the Grand Floridian would be a nice experience, but it is something that our family can't afford. There are many people who are able to do that, though. Is Disney "catering to the rich" because we can't afford to do that? Is it unfair that my family and I can't go stay there while others can?

Bottom line is that the entirety of a Disney vacation is a luxury item. Some people can afford it, some can't. Within those who can, some can afford one level of amenities and some can afford another. I don't see how allowing people to buy more FastPasses is any different than allowing someone to buy tickets to a party when others can't get into the park or charging more money to eat at a signature restaurant or charging more for a deluxe resort than a value.

Apples to Donuts comparison...

Dining and accommodations have for the history of the planet have always fluxuated based upon many variables. Paying more/less for your hotel or food can and should be expected. Disneyworld for it's 50 year history has always had a much more equitable foundation. And if this trend continues it will just increase the division of people who can happily navigate the parks and the rest who will endure crowds and long waits.

Theme parks are not a right and should not be treated as an entitlement but there should be growing concerns that the fundamentals of what made Disney special for the last several generations is dissolving and may eventually get to the point of disillusionment for the working class. Stated simply, the product was better, cheaper and more profitable 20 years ago and as Disney fans we have come to expect more from our parks.

 

[412]

I have read this entire thread -- yes, all 18 pages -- and I can see reasonable arguments on both sides. But here's what I keep coming back to in my mind:

My family and I are able to afford to go to Walt Disney World. We did ten days there in September, in fact. Having the financial ability to do that is something that many, many people do not have. Many others do. Does that mean that Disney is "catering to the rich" because only a certain percentage of the populace can afford a Walt Disney World vacation? Is it unfair that my family and I can go while others cannot?

On the other hand, when we did our trip, we stayed at Art of Animation. Staying Club Level at the Contemporary or the Grand Floridian would be a nice experience, but it is something that our family can't afford. There are many people who are able to do that, though. Is Disney "catering to the rich" because we can't afford to do that? Is it unfair that my family and I can't go stay there while others can?

Bottom line is that the entirety of a Disney vacation is a luxury item. Some people can afford it, some can't. Within those who can, some can afford one level of amenities and some can afford another. I don't see how allowing people to buy more FastPasses is any different than allowing someone to buy tickets to a party when others can't get into the park or charging more money to eat at a signature restaurant or charging more for a deluxe resort than a value.

To chime in, I think people are most concerned with "zero-sum" upgrades: upgrades where one guest's benefit directly results in another guest's detriment. Reducing park hours for a paid event is this kind of upgrade. Paid FastPasses also seem to be this kind of upgrade. Every time someone uses a paid FastPass, it means that someone who didn't pay is waiting longer. If there are enough paid FastPasses out there, this could really start to add up.

On the other hand, upgrades like new Minnie Van service are less controversial because, unless Disney is diverting general transportation funding to pay for them, they provide a benefit to some guests without harming others.

 

[Lets Respect]

They're taking the 4th FPs and selling them.
They're taking the 30 day FPs and selling them (they are REALLY doing this because they just added all of those offsite hotels at 60 days)
Heck they're taking the 60-day FPs and selling them.

So whatever ticket you buy is now worth less.

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

To chime in, I think people are most concerned with "zero-sum" upgrades: upgrades where one guest's benefit directly results in another guest's detriment. Reducing park hours for a paid event is this kind of upgrade. Paid FastPasses also seem to be this kind of upgrade. Every time someone uses a paid FastPass, it means that someone who didn't pay is waiting longer. If there are enough paid FastPasses out there, this could really start to add up.

On the other hand, upgrades like new Minnie Van service are less controversial because, unless Disney is diverting general transportation funding to pay for them, they provide a benefit to some guests without harming others.

Hey, 412, do you want hear a 724 perspective?

 

[Nubs70]

I see FP+ Pay2Play morphing WDW into a Admission + Pay/Ride with surge pricing.

You pay base ride charge at queue entry + surge premium. This would be a great crowd manipulation mechanism to help load level the rides.

 

[smile]

brick by brick...
be wary this is merely the servant's quarters

 

[JoeCamel]

I see FP+ Pay2Play morphing WDW into a Admission + Pay/Ride with surge pricing.

You pay base ride charge at queue entry + surge premium. This would be a great crowd manipulation mechanism to help load level the rides.

So isn't this where they started? You buy a book (real or virtual) and in that book is an entry and transportation pass then you use portions of the book to get on rides? if you want to take more rides books are available in the park - for a fee?
I see them coming full circle on this. Pay more to stay and you get a book, pay less then you have to buy a book. Want more? buy another book retail.

 

[Brad Bishop]

So isn't this where they started? You buy a book (real or virtual) and in that book is an entry and transportation pass then you use portions of the book to get on rides? if you want to take more rides books are available in the park - for a fee?
I see them coming full circle on this. Pay more to stay and you get a book, pay less then you have to buy a book. Want more? buy another book retail.

Is it?

It started with: pay some nominal fee ($5) to enter and then buy a book for $20 or so. Then it morphed into: Pay one price at $25-30/day... If we circle back to pay to ride then they aren't circling back to the nominal fee to enter.

What you land on is: pay one higher price to ride?? $125 and then $50 or so more to "ride".

The $125 used to include the "ride". Now it includes the "ride??" and you can pay more to "ride."

They have people lining up outside the gate to do this so they can pull this off. I really think, long term, that this will bite them and WDW will be thought of as: That super expensive place where they overcharge for everything and then charge you more and they don't even do the proper (keeping things clean, basically, to the average customer) maintenance!!!

That's not a good position to be in 2 generations out. Right now they can just cycle through the nostalgia folks but eventually that gravy train will end. Also, when you allow your name to become mud it's WAY harder to pull out of it rather than just giving people a fair product/service for a fair price and letting the experience sell the future generations - which was their tradition.

 

[Alice a]

locals are not the only ones purchasing annual passes.

We did for years, and I live almost 7 hours away. I worked as a consultant to a company in St Augustine and was there every 5 weeks, so it was fun to add in a day or two at Disney a few times a year.

When I moved to a consultancy in Las Vegas, we kept the annual passes as they had killed the non-expiring tickets that year, and I like going for 3-4 days max, 2-3 times a year (diabetic pet at home)- we finally decided not to renew in 2017 as it just felt like WDW vacations had changed from a destination vacation, to 'for a day or two if we're already in Florida' trip.

I stay deluxe and don't watch my spending on trips, but the experience wasn't improving, and the price is going up.

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

To be clear...I agree with @21stamps about this...fastpass isn't gonna become a "premium" service. But from a different angle.

They do not have enough ride capacity now...let alone if attendance rises...to survive without it. Fastpass was a way to free up people for the gift shops...fastpass+ is simply a ride rationing system - born out of necessity.

Remember when they said That the bands would "revolutionize the experience and be interactive"? They dropped that pretense the next day...it's about you keeping your reservations. So while you don't have to wait 75 minutes for soarin...I bet statistically a lot use those useless ones you have to book for figment and nemo...

And then a lot of people move on to the showcase or out of the park after.

It's all about distribution...if people don't pay for it...now Then the park reputation will get blown out of the water like the French navy...

It has to be available for all tickets...lest they see how bad the situation really is. They have no more ride capacity now than they did in 2000...and If they get a push from what they're planning...it will be chaos without the computer balancing people.

 

[lazyboy97o]

So isn't this where they started? You buy a book (real or virtual) and in that book is an entry and transportation pass then you use portions of the book to get on rides? if you want to take more rides books are available in the park - for a fee?
I see them coming full circle on this. Pay more to stay and you get a book, pay less then you have to buy a book. Want more? buy another book retail.

The difference being that a 1972 Disneyland 15 ride ticket book cost $5.95, or $35.03 adjusted for inflation. That’s roughly two rides today for the price of fifteen then.

 

[smile]

The difference being that a 1972 Disneyland 15 ride ticket book cost $5.95, or $35.03 adjusted for inflation. That’s roughly two rides today for the price of fifteen then.

and to think...
if they had been charging anywhere near comparatively, we could have had a sponsor-less epcot center