yes, you are the voice of reason, when i get very emotional over very callous people making comments that i take as "hostile" and have been referred to as a troll for expressing how i feel, and others have referred to parenting, etc. just sick of it, there is no empathy at all, and yet you say... "what are you teaching your kids?" paraphrasing.. but what are you teaching your kids??? when i say "you" referring to others, not you
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GAC to Become DAS
- Thread starter Animaniac93-98
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unkadug
Follower of "Saget"The Cult
pais
Member
Well said, Tom Morrow. Also the old GAC cards even clearly say across the front that they are not meant for FOTL access.
NowInc
Well-Known Member
Honestly for the most part, I have seen valid arguments on every angle on the new process...and I think most of the rationality shines when people have acknowledged a few thing:
1.) A change had to be done. It wasn't implemented to PUNISH anyone who had valid reasons (I get irritated when its implied this change was done as an "anti-disabled" move. Lets be real here)
2.) The new system is in fact NEW (for Disney). They themselves said it will require a period of adjustment. Anyone who has seen GR in person (or in the videos) will notice that there are management CMs all over the place, taking notes. This is not only to help the CMs help guests, but also to observe what is and what isn't working..and list the complaints people have.
3.) The TRUE test of how well (or not) it works will be the upcoming holiday season.
4.) Its hard for anyone on either side to clearly see the others point of view. Those without a disabled party member can never know exactly what its like to go to WDW, but on the inverse, those who have disabled party members can't seem to understand why the rest of the world seems happy about this. As I've said numerous times here, no one has ever said the disabled don't deserve special access to any aspect of WDW. The problem is to what extent, and the touchy area about that is..there are different types of disabilities. Some more apparent than others. Just because you can't SEE it, doesn't mean its not there..that kind of thing. Hostility from one side comes from the fact that a lot of the "invisible" disabilities have sadly blended in with the masses who were clearly faking it, so a general attitude of "If its not obvious, its fake". I personally feel the new system, tho a bit more work for the valid users, is going to cut down on those who are exploiting the system. A signed "contract" and a picture of you on the paper really makes people a lot more worried about getting caught. At least for now. Disney is on a fine line here, if too many exceptions get made (and yes...there HAVE to be exceptions on a person by person basis...no denying that either), and if its "gets out" how to "work" the system...then we are back to square one.
Now this is where I may lose a few of you..but here it goes.
I think that instead of chastising the new system, the Autistic community should actually EMBRACE it, and give feedback..and aggressively help think of ways to make sure those who are getting the passes are those who truly need them, as opposed to complaining and flat out saying it doesn't work..and then putting it on a public forum on how to get what you want. Because the problem is...EVERYONE can see those things...and then the fakers will start following the same guidelines.
1.) A change had to be done. It wasn't implemented to PUNISH anyone who had valid reasons (I get irritated when its implied this change was done as an "anti-disabled" move. Lets be real here)
2.) The new system is in fact NEW (for Disney). They themselves said it will require a period of adjustment. Anyone who has seen GR in person (or in the videos) will notice that there are management CMs all over the place, taking notes. This is not only to help the CMs help guests, but also to observe what is and what isn't working..and list the complaints people have.
3.) The TRUE test of how well (or not) it works will be the upcoming holiday season.
4.) Its hard for anyone on either side to clearly see the others point of view. Those without a disabled party member can never know exactly what its like to go to WDW, but on the inverse, those who have disabled party members can't seem to understand why the rest of the world seems happy about this. As I've said numerous times here, no one has ever said the disabled don't deserve special access to any aspect of WDW. The problem is to what extent, and the touchy area about that is..there are different types of disabilities. Some more apparent than others. Just because you can't SEE it, doesn't mean its not there..that kind of thing. Hostility from one side comes from the fact that a lot of the "invisible" disabilities have sadly blended in with the masses who were clearly faking it, so a general attitude of "If its not obvious, its fake". I personally feel the new system, tho a bit more work for the valid users, is going to cut down on those who are exploiting the system. A signed "contract" and a picture of you on the paper really makes people a lot more worried about getting caught. At least for now. Disney is on a fine line here, if too many exceptions get made (and yes...there HAVE to be exceptions on a person by person basis...no denying that either), and if its "gets out" how to "work" the system...then we are back to square one.
Now this is where I may lose a few of you..but here it goes.
I think that instead of chastising the new system, the Autistic community should actually EMBRACE it, and give feedback..and aggressively help think of ways to make sure those who are getting the passes are those who truly need them, as opposed to complaining and flat out saying it doesn't work..and then putting it on a public forum on how to get what you want. Because the problem is...EVERYONE can see those things...and then the fakers will start following the same guidelines.
RSoxNo1
Well-Known Member
I would argue that it's because of Fastpass+ making up the difference. Perhaps the switch from GAC to DAS will help offset longer lines due to Fastpass+. The other explanation... you're looking at a single point of time on one day and not a trend.
Holiday weekend + incredibly beautiful weather (after a lousy weekend last week) + F&W Festival + MNSSHP = larger than average crowds.
OswaldTheRabbit
Well-Known Member
I just want to say this is EXACTLY DEAD ON..... and I am one of those with an autistic son. Both sides need to be rational about the change.
I am not judging it till I try in in a few weeks for our son and YES Disney will have to work out some kinks.
But this is coming from a parent that appreciates the fact that Disney is willing to help make our time go smoother and that uses fast passes and touring plans to help OUR issues.
Gabe1
Ivory Tower Squabble EST 2011. WINDMILL SURVIVOR
Today seems to be a good day to share this story. My DD attends the University of Illinois Champaign Urbana which has for decades championed equal access. UoI has always been the leading University in access. There is one young lady Tatyana who attended school with my DD who was born in Russia with Spinal Bifida. She had surgery 21 days after birth instead of immediately and was abandoned and sent to an orphanage paralyzed from the waist down, so poor it couldn't buy crayons let alone a wheelchair for Tatyana, she remained in bed, malnourished basically left to die.
Her adoptive, American Mom visited the orphanage on a business trip bonded with her and adopted her. She almost died in the USA because she had been so malnourished and was only expected to live a few months. She pushed forward with a will. Her Mom built strength in her and enrolled her in every sport imaginable including swimming but ultimately her love was wheelchair racing.
At the University of IL she is known as the Beast. She is so strong and students are in awe at how much she can lift and goes up hills in her wheelchair that bring others to a crawl.
Today she won the Chicago Marathon in a sprint to the end in the time of 1:42:37 and put her in another elite classification, the first to win 3 marathons in a row, including Boston and the first to win 4 marathons in her wheelchair in a single year.
My DD and I both followed the marathon, separated by 4 hours from each other, cheering her on. She has accomplished everything she can do with the support of her Mom who believed she could do anything she set her mind to do. This young lady sets the bar with grace and dignity for all she has decided to accomplish.
I am so proud of her and everything she represents in life.
Her adoptive, American Mom visited the orphanage on a business trip bonded with her and adopted her. She almost died in the USA because she had been so malnourished and was only expected to live a few months. She pushed forward with a will. Her Mom built strength in her and enrolled her in every sport imaginable including swimming but ultimately her love was wheelchair racing.
At the University of IL she is known as the Beast. She is so strong and students are in awe at how much she can lift and goes up hills in her wheelchair that bring others to a crawl.
Today she won the Chicago Marathon in a sprint to the end in the time of 1:42:37 and put her in another elite classification, the first to win 3 marathons in a row, including Boston and the first to win 4 marathons in her wheelchair in a single year.
My DD and I both followed the marathon, separated by 4 hours from each other, cheering her on. She has accomplished everything she can do with the support of her Mom who believed she could do anything she set her mind to do. This young lady sets the bar with grace and dignity for all she has decided to accomplish.
I am so proud of her and everything she represents in life.
misterID
Well-Known Member
My post was about making it easier for people who really need the card and this is obviously a trial and error period. The whole point is to make it easier for people who need the card not harder on everyone because you're obsessed about people getting ahead of you in line. I think a lot of people have lost sight about people actually needing the card/DAS, which is priority #1, not the people who think someone is getting a better vacation than them (fair and equal). And also, this is abut how hard some of the new rules are going to be on some who GENUINELY NEED IT, which has been pointed out very thoughtfully and respectfully here. "Fair and equal" is all about you, masked with "making it better for people who need it." We're talking about how to make it better for people who need it, yet you don't want to go that route because they will get ahead of you in line on some attractions, or else you wouldn't be throwing out the misused word "entitelment" which is filled with spite for too many people. I'm talking about making it easier on people that need it, that's not what you're talking about. Just like a handicap sticker that gets you perks, it's NEVER going to be fair and equal on your terms.
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unkadug
Follower of "Saget"The Cult
I bet that when Tatyana goes to WDW she waits in line with everyone else.
Again, 1% of guests (those woth GACs) were making up 10-12% of the ridership of the most popular attractions due to having unlimited access. That IS unfair. Unless you are a terminally ill child with very little time left on this earth, no one *needs* that level of access.
Also, remember guests can rent VIP tour guides for $300+ an hour which has the exact same access that a GAC got for free (and with no proof required). Not saying some people don't need help or a certain level of accommodation - no one is saying that- but there was no need for the previous system to be as overly generous as it was. Again, the DAS system is basically the exact same system that almost every other park in America uses, and it works just fine.
misterID
Well-Known Member
DID YOU EVEN READ MY POSTS????
Man, I'm not trying to be a jerk here but people are having imaginary arguments with themsleves. Like I said, it's like an obsession people are getting ahead of them in line.
I said nothing about returning things to the old system. I'm glad they changed it to try and weed out the fraud, but let's make it easier on people who need it and make sure we're not subjecting NEEDLESS hardships on people who don't need anymore hardships. Let's make it better for THEM. There was a good point made about making it 30 minutes or less, which is what we're discussing.
Come on guys, if you're going to chime in, please do me the respect of reading what I actually said before trying to argue with me.
Tom Morrow
Well-Known Member
I still don't understand why "having to wait the same amount as everyone else" is a hardship.
30 minutes is too much. It gives incentive to scam the system. You have to draw the line somewhere, 10-15 seems totally fair.
30 minutes is too much. It gives incentive to scam the system. You have to draw the line somewhere, 10-15 seems totally fair.
unkadug
Follower of "Saget"The Cult
If people actually read what people wrote then this whole thread would be two pages long.
What good is a lively conversation without misunderstandings and total disregard for what people post?
duchess1
Active Member
The problem is that some are arguing using emotions and others are arguing with logic. The two will never come to an agreement. There is no "obsession" with having someone else in front of them in line, the issue is equal access. Equal access does not mean equal outcome.
There is a lot of talk about "their lives are so hard the rest of the time, what is the big deal?" - the problem with that is you don't know everyone's story, so while you get on some for judging the disabled, you (the general "you", not anyone in particular) are judging the rest of us as "not worthy" of having equal treatment, as though those with a disability and their needs rise above the rest of us.
There is a lot of talk about "their lives are so hard the rest of the time, what is the big deal?" - the problem with that is you don't know everyone's story, so while you get on some for judging the disabled, you (the general "you", not anyone in particular) are judging the rest of us as "not worthy" of having equal treatment, as though those with a disability and their needs rise above the rest of us.
misterID
Well-Known Member
Because some can't wait around like everyone else? That seems to be the thing that everyone's missing here and is THE big failure in understanding. Like I said, you're concerned about yourself, and the people who agree with you. That's fine. But this whole thing, whether GAC or DAS, is meant to help the people who aren't like you. 30 minutes is too much for you. I don't want to sound badly, but it doesn't matter what you think. It's about what's best to help the people who need it, not what you think. Getting around with a disabled family member isn't easy.
It will never be fair and equal on your terms, because the whole point of giving the perk, like the handicap sticker, is making it easier on people who have a more difficult time getting around. Sorry. And people are going to scam the system no matter what, you can't stop it.
There is nothing emotional here from my end. I have a different perspective than some from having to use that system, whether I like it or not. And from MY perspective it's not as wonderful as you guys seem to think, because you're only looking at it from the aspect of waiting in line, not the entire day at the park, which is way more limited than you guys must know for all the talk about making it "fair and equal" for all the healthy guests compared to the disabled, which I'm sorry, I don't understand... The benefits are not as good as you seem to think, unless you scam the system, and I hope we all can agree that none of us want that.
It's not that I'm "judging you" as not being worthy, whatever that means, about having equal treatment. You are getting a better vacation than I am because you can do much more than a lot of us can, not to mention the added hassle of just getting through the park. "Fair and equal" is just a moot argument, imo, because it simply doesn't make sense. The whole point of making disabled assistance perks is to make it fair and equal for everyone who have a much more limited guest experience than the "average" guest. Getting a shorter wait in line is a very narrow view of what a family with a disabled person's day at the park is like. There does seem to be an obsession about waiting in line, because that's the only thing a lot of you guys think about in this topic and there's a lot more to it than that.
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Disvillain63
Well-Known Member
I understand that being disabled may not afford a person the same type of trip as someone who is considered an 'average' guests, but is it really up to Disney to accommodate EVERY families disability. For instance, we just returned from a nice trip with my son and his family. His wife couldn't spend the entire day at every park and couldn't ride all the rides, since she's pregnant. She didn't ask for special assistance, etc... When she was done, she returned to the resort to rest and rejoined the family later. Locally, some of our stores consider pregnancy a disability and since she wasn't getting the full 'value' of her paid admission maybe she should have complained...she didn't...she accepted her condition and went on with the trip. We couldn't move through the park as quickly with her, but that was part of being there as a family. Yes, there will be the possibility of other trips in the future...it will be at least 3 years before they will return due to the baby...and that's if no other babies come before then.
I've known many others who have made trips through Make-a-Wish and just with their families. There are rides/attractions that they couldn't go on due to their health-concerns and/or disabilities. Special treatment was not something they looked for/asked for. If they had to call it quits at half-a-day, they did.
Try the new system before giving up on it. Many people were experiencing the new system while we were there and had no problems. CMs were eager to show them how the queue lines worked for their wheelchairs/scooters. It was running quite smoothly. The only tears and screaming were from tired children/infants...which is pretty normal at Disney.
I've known many others who have made trips through Make-a-Wish and just with their families. There are rides/attractions that they couldn't go on due to their health-concerns and/or disabilities. Special treatment was not something they looked for/asked for. If they had to call it quits at half-a-day, they did.
Try the new system before giving up on it. Many people were experiencing the new system while we were there and had no problems. CMs were eager to show them how the queue lines worked for their wheelchairs/scooters. It was running quite smoothly. The only tears and screaming were from tired children/infants...which is pretty normal at Disney.
Tom Morrow
Well-Known Member
I'm sorry, but its absolutely ridiculous for anyone to expect to be able to enter the world's most popular theme parks and be able to ride all the major rides in a short time without having to wait at all "because we need to do it this way!" Granting instant, unlimited Fastpass queue entrance, which seems to be what you feel the disabled are entitled to, is a premium perk (that Disney themselves charge $300 an hour for).
I'm pregnant right now, and didn't even think of this! We went to Disneyland Paris back in June when I was 14 weeks or so (the plan was to get pregnant AFTER the trip, but...whoops!), and let me tell you - in their Studios, literally the ONLY ride I could do was the Backlot Tour. I could see the shows too, but well, I think I'm a little on the old side for Disney Junior, and I've got LMA here in my own back yard. This was more than likely our one and only trip we'll ever take to Paris in our lifetime, so while my "condition" of pregnancy is temporary, it doesn't matter much as I'll never get to experience those parks again. But I went there knowing I was going to do FAR less than an average guest, because that's what my limitations were. It's not Disney's fault I was pregnant, and it would be unreasonable for me to expect or demand them to make every single attraction accessible to pregnant women.
Edited to mention this:
Over the four days we were there, we only saw TWO wheelchairs and ONE ECV the entire visit. Obviously they have fewer guests, but c'mon. That's a pretty significant difference.
Also, I never got a super close up look of their GACs, but they were different than the ones here in the US. From what I could tell, there was a photo of the person on it, AND when they used it (at most of the attractions, but not all), the CM would write down their name, the number of people using it, and the time of use. I don't know if it was simply for data purposes or if that limited the amount of times the party could use the card at each attractions. Anyone know specifically how it works there?
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misterID
Well-Known Member
Again, you're making up arguments again, Tom. I never said anything about being given an unlimited fast pass (again, this is really sounding like an obsession) but I don't see a problem with giving someone a shorter wait who can't even ride all the rides you can, and your argument just sounds callous and purposely uninformed.
We're talking about extending the wait time from fifteen to thirty minutes, which you oppose because that would mean the disabled are getting a better vacation than you are. These people who haven't done anything wrong, who are being affected specifically because of others abusing the system-- that was created for them. I guarantee you that even with the old GAC pass, you spent more time on the attractions and rode more attractions than I did, just because of my disabled family member, not to mention waiting around so other family members and kids can ride the "major rides", we're not even counting that. It takes a lot of time to get around and now that time is going to be extended even more because of a flawed system. That's not fair and equal.
You've already gotten your way. GAC is dead. I want to make it easier for folks who need help to get it to have an easier time. I know you're not purposely doing this, but if your only contribution is to continue to make it harder on themso they don't have this imaginary advantage over you, then its hard to take you seriously.
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