GAC to Become DAS

[Pinkerton]

This is my concern. Will the return time take into account the second line I and my family will have to stand in? (I use a wheelchair, parents are seniors who have used GAC, I have also used one at certain times) With only two exceptions we have to use the car that takes the wheelchair. If we are told to come back at say 1:30 because that is when I would only have to wait 20 minutes they will most likely be incorrect. We have to wait 20 minutes plus the extra time in the second line. Sometimes on a ramp which is hard in a wheelchair. My family has waited up to an hour in these lines.

The fact that those who are wheelchair bound can't transfer and must wait a lot longer than a non-disabled person for a wheelchair accessible ride vehicle will become apparent and that is another reason why I feel those who are permanently disabled (and their families) will be granted GAC access again. Otherwise, Disney will have to add more accessible ride vehicles and that would cost too much money. Hey, do you think this is why Disney allowed those with permanent physical disabilities GAC-type privileges when these type passes were first initiated many, many years ago?

 

[Goofyernmost]

The date was altered (might be hard to tell in the smaller resolution I uploaded it in). It was changed to a 28 from 26 or 23 or something. And the number of guests originally said "4 (four)." They wrote a "1" in front of the 4, and drew a line through the right parenthesis to change it into a 'T' and wrote "een" after that. The ten 18-20ish year old boys who tried to use it apparently didn't think to change the name of the person on the card, though, because I highly doubt any of them were named Angie. Lol.

I really don't want to sound bi****, but basically, you knew that the pass was blatantly bogus, all boys none named Angie and yet you, as a CM decided not to challenge it? Could this be part of the reason why there has been so much abuse, because no one is willing to get involved when it is obvious what is going on? Policy is in place that would eliminate the altering of any pass, yet there it was, alarmingly altered and you just let it go with a warning that someone else might not be so nice. I don't understand. Even if the manager were to override you, it still would have totally deleted whatever advantage that having it had for that group as they would be delayed while waiting for the manager. Now I'm really starting to feel sorry for those with real disabilities because it appears that no one is looking out for them. It also means that the new system has no better chance of working then the old one did, just as long as CM's are willing to just ignore it.

I don't really thing that those that still need it should worry, the only thing that is going to change is the name of the card.

 

[Nemo14]

I really don't want to sound bi****, but basically, you knew that the pass was blatantly bogus, all boys none named Angie and yet you, as a CM decided not to challenge it? Could this be part of the reason why there has been so much abuse, because no one is willing to get involved when it is obvious what is going on? Policy is in place that would eliminate the altering of any pass, yet there it was, alarmingly altered and you just let it go with a warning that someone else might not be so nice. I don't understand. Even if the manager were to override you, it still would have totally deleted whatever advantage that having it had for that group as they would be delayed while waiting for the manager. Now I'm really starting to feel sorry for those with real disabilities because it appears that no one is looking out for them. It also means that the new system has no better chance of working then the old one did, just as long as CM's are willing to just ignore it.

I don't really thing that those that still need it should worry, the only thing that is going to change is the name of the card.

I don't think he meant that he let that particular pass go.

 

[cmybliss]

Over the past dozen or so trips to WDW, my wife has been forced routinely to wait anywhere from 20 to 45 minutes at restrooms because many guests choose to use the accessible stalls that force guests with mobility issues to wait in very uncomfortable conditions. Ironically, this seems to be an issue in ladies rooms much more so than mens rooms as very rarely do I encounter the mens room accessible stall in-use and would never use it as I was brought up to respect that there is typically only one option for people with accessibilty issues while I have many.

Sorry for the ot post, but this is a pet peeve of mine.

Most of us ladies are forced to wait that long to use a restroom when lines are long. It's just the way things work in the ladies for some reason.
My mom has mobility issues 9she has a Dr. prescribed EMV), and she has never once jumped to the head of a long line to use the accessible stall. She waits her turn like everyone else.
I always use the accessible stall when traveling with my daughter, who is 12. I get dirty looks from people in chairs and scooters but I don't care. My daughter has an extreme anxiety of public restrooms (oh the joys of anxiety!), especially those with automatic toilets. In order for her to use them, I have to set it up properly (cover the sensor with a post-it note to trick the toilet into thinking someone is sitting on it, put on the seat protector) while she stands as far away from the toilet as humanly possible eyeing it like it's a venomous snake getting ready to strike. Then I have to constantly reassure her that the flushing she hears all around her is not our toilet. This is impossible to do in a regular sized stall, especially when burdened with bags. We will always wait for the accessible stall to open, even if it means a longer wait. This is an accommodation I have to make for her in order for us to leave the house for any length of time and I'll be damned if I let anyone's opinion to the contrary change my behavior.
I don't mean to sound callous, but I get tired of the nasty looks and comments.


* To be clear, when traveling without my daughter, I always use a normal stall.*

 

[BroganMc]

?? really??

Typo. That's what I get for having auto correct on. I tried to fix it in edit.

 

[luv]

I really don't want to sound bi****, but basically, you knew that the pass was blatantly bogus, all boys none named Angie and yet you, as a CM decided not to challenge it? Could this be part of the reason why there has been so much abuse, because no one is willing to get involved when it is obvious what is going on? Policy is in place that would eliminate the altering of any pass, yet there it was, alarmingly altered and you just let it go with a warning that someone else might not be so nice. I don't understand. Even if the manager were to override you, it still would have totally deleted whatever advantage that having it had for that group as they would be delayed while waiting for the manager. Now I'm really starting to feel sorry for those with real disabilities because it appears that no one is looking out for them. It also means that the new system has no better chance of working then the old one did, just as long as CM's are willing to just ignore it.

I don't really thing that those that still need it should worry, the only thing that is going to change is the name of the card.

The poster was just stating that someone else, not that poster, had pulled the thing. They didn't say that they let it go.

 

[englanddg]

I truly appreciate your post...but I'll counter anyway (with absolutely no offense meant, just friendly discussion).

I wouldn't call it pandering to admit to a new type of disability that needs to be recognized and protected from discrimination.

dis·crim·i·nate
disˈkriməˌnāt/
verb

1. recognize a distinction; differentiate.
2. make an unjust or prejudicial distinction in the treatment of different categories of people or things, esp. on the grounds of race, sex, or age.

You are using definition 2.

You cannot legislate or demand an end to discrimination. It will never happen. Discrimination is actually a survival instinct, and people discriminate all the time, every day, with most decisions they make. People discriminate their foods (I really don't like the way that looks even though I've never eaten it). People discriminate their entertainment (I just hate <insert type> music even though I've never listened to that song). People will discriminate their social interactions (I can't stand being around rabid WoW players even though I've never played the game). Discrimination is a word for individual choice. You may not agree with the choices others make, but this is also a function of individual liberty. Freedom is sometimes ugly.

So, the question becomes what exactly are you discriminating against? With ADA (I won't even get into civil rights legislation) we have decided that there are certain forms of discrimination which should not be tolerated. Largely discrimination against public access (not private mind you, boys only "clubs" are still legal for example) and discrimination against potential ability (he's disabled so there is no way he can be smart enough to be a lawyer, even though he has the certifications).

However, it is perfectly legal to discriminate when it comes to sex, age, religion, disability, etc., with employment practices in particular, if the case can be made that the person could not, due to their situation, fufill the role required by the work. So, this is why you don't see male waiters in hot pants at Hooters (to be silly about it). You will never see someone who has ALS playing in the NBA (or WNBA). Etc...and, guess what...it's perfectly legal (and it should be).

It is the evolution of social awareness.

Argumentum ad populum with trope. Metynymy. I doubt people weren't "aware" of conditions years before (as you go on to point out). They were quite aware. What it is, truly, is advancement in medical science which allows people who, 20 years ago, couldn't be treated, and therefore were treated to the best of the state of the art at the time (which required institutionalization in some cases), are now capable of living fuller lives.

20 years ago a prosthetic wouldn't allow a man to run (at least not fast or well). Drugs are now available to treat / control a variety of medical illnesses which 20 years ago would have rendered the patient largely incapable of daily interactions in any reliable sense. This is an advancement of medical science, not "social awareness".

Society has progressed to acknowledge the invisible disability as a "real" disability to be accomodated and not hidden and ostracized. That is why this "pandering" as you describe it occured. And I would remind you that before that the same process occured for the physically disabled as well. There was a time where physically and mentalally disabled individuals would be institutionalized and not accomodated as they are now. Is it pandering to those in wheelchairs to ensure ramp access to buildings? Because that didn't exist 50 years ago, but it does now.

Argumentum ad misericordiam and dicto simpliciter. You are setting up a straw man.

For example...however did our largely wheelchair bound PRESIDENT from 1932 until 1944 make it through life without ADA, I wonder? I'm quite sure FDR required "ramps" at some point.

Granted, FDR largely hid his infirmity from Polio from the general public, but if the point is "mobility"...well, he did just fine without ADA compliant ramps everywhere. Further, I grant he had means and stature to dictate things, but the man wasn't strolling onto stages on a regular basis, and he certainly did travel quite a bit.

My underlying point is, physical and mental disabilities are not "new"...and people were certainly well aware of it then as now. Medical treatment has advanced to allow them greater access than they had before. Your implication is that there was/is some massive popular discrimination against people with disabilities. This simply is not the case.

With respect to "accomodation"...There is a difference between "empowering" someone disabled and "excusing" someone who is disabled. A major difference.

You imply that one type of disability is more deserving of accomodations than another, which is flat out predjudice no matter how you spin it.

Yep...straw man. Everything you wrote built up to this point, which is really a fallacy.

Again, this is not a personal attack. Far from it. I found your post moving. I am extremely pleased that your son is able to interact with general society in a way that someone 20 years prior would not have been able to. I merely question the further implications and statements you made regarding the ultimate reasons WHY this is the case, and your conclusions.

Cheers!

 

[misterID]

Also, wheelchair bound guests, even with the card, have to wait until the accessible vehicles come around and a lot of attractions only use one. And there's usually a line of disabled guests, so you're waiting a long while. So asking someone to come back 20 or 30 minutes later to use the card only to have them keep waiting in line even longer makes absolutely no sense.

 

[rct247]

It all comes down to the fact that was the biggest reason why GAC was re-evaluated in the first place (even prior to all the publicity) which was that all GAC users legit or fake were getting a better guest experience than the average guest. In fact, in most cases, even better than the most prepared preplanned veteran guests who knew all the ins and outs of how to maximize their visit. It just wasn't fair or consistent no matter how you argue it.

The average guest could get X number of attractions in in a day for the time they spent in the park and the money they spent with all the other factors they had to deal with, while any GAC card user with the right stamp would get double,if not all of the park (or multiple parks') attractions done in a fraction of the time for the same amount of money (or in the case of park hoping, for less) even with the added factor of having a disability.

So rather than argue about what a disability is. It doesn't matter about the the disability or ability. It doesn't matter if it's apparent or not. It doesn't matter if they needed the GAC or faked the need. It wasn't fair and this new DAS helps address the consistency issue by putting it on better playing field: one that still benefits guests with disabilities with accommodation and more, but keeps things in check to avoid it from becoming the golden ticket it should have never become.

 

[englanddg]

Also, wheelchair bound guests, even with the card, have to wait until the accessible vehicles come around and a lot of attractions only use one. And there's usually a line of disabled guests, so you're waiting a long while. So asking someone to come back 20 or 30 minutes later to use the card only to have them keep waiting in line even longer makes absolutely no sense.

This is 100% true. I am so glad you brought this up. Last trip, the kiddo and I (ok me) made the mistake of getting into the wheelchair access for Kilimanjaro Safari (we had FPs, and the FP guy assumed we were with the ECV family in front of us and waved us through the Wheelchair gate)...

They only run one vehicle for GAC guests at the Safari...so, we had to wait a very long time. I watched the regular FP line cycle nearly twice before we boarded.

That being said...we were treated hostilely at first by the other GAC guests in line at first, until they realized it was an honest mistake on our part. I was confronted twice while in line, and even told "well, just pretend you are part of our family so you don't get in trouble." (along those lines)

Seriously? I went where the CM told me to go. I'm not trying to scam to get onto your "special bus" (and yes, I know that has a double meaning, and no, I don't use that term to have any meaning other than the words "special bus").

The hostility was a bit offputting, since really I had no idea at first and was frankly doing what everyone at Disney should be doing, having fun and spending time with the kid...I know Disney but they've been making a lot of changes and I thought at first it was odd, but that it was a change to the FP queue...

Anyhow, once they figured out it was an honest mistake (largely because when they told me where I was I was ready to walk back to the gate and get in the regular FP line), they softened. But, that hostility, I'm sorry, is just offputting.

I've seen it elsewhere as well. I don't care if they stack the bus full of ECVs and me and the kid have to wait a bit longer or even for another bus. It doesn't bother me at all. However, I've seen ECV guests scream and yell at Bus Drivers on multiple trips because the bus is at capacity (for guests or for ECVs)...

THIS general attitude doesn't make people sympathize for the plight...it makes them think...screw off.

 

[misterID]

This is 100% true. I am so glad you brought this up. Last trip, the kiddo and I (ok me) made the mistake of getting into the wheelchair access for Kilimanjaro Safari (we had FPs, and the FP guy assumed we were with the ECV family in front of us and waved us through the Wheelchair gate)...

They only run one vehicle for GAC guests at the Safari...so, we had to wait a very long time. I watched the regular FP line cycle nearly twice before we boarded.

That being said...we were treated hostilely at first by the other GAC guests in line at first, until they realized it was an honest mistake on our part. I was confronted twice while in line, and even told "well, just pretend you are part of our family so you don't get in trouble." (along those lines)

Seriously? I went where the CM told me to go. I'm not trying to scam to get onto your "special bus" (and yes, I know that has a double meaning, and no, I don't use that term to have any meaning other than the words "special bus").

The hostility was a bit offputting, since really I had no idea at first and was frankly doing what everyone at Disney should be doing, having fun and spending time with the kid...I know Disney but they've been making a lot of changes and I thought at first it was odd, but that it was a change to the FP queue...

Anyhow, once they figured out it was an honest mistake (largely because when they told me where I was I was ready to walk back to the gate and get in the regular FP line), they softened. But, that hostility, I'm sorry, is just offputting.

I've seen it elsewhere as well. I don't care if they stack the bus full of ECVs and me and the kid have to wait a bit longer or even for another bus. It doesn't bother me at all. However, I've seen ECV guests scream and yell at Bus Drivers on multiple trips because the bus is at capacity (for guests or for ECVs)...

THIS general attitude doesn't make people sympathize for the plight...it makes them think...screw off.

Two CM's put us in the standby line at Pooh and the other guests helped call over a CM to get us in the proper line, so we had some really good interaction with other guests. And it took a little while to get my dad on one of the vehicles for some reason and all the guests waiting in line joked with him for breaking the ride on purpose.

At the land there's a really small awkward elevator you have to ride from the bottom floor to get back to the second level and it's always clogged with ECV's. There was a woman who didn't know how to drive her scooter and kept ramming the wall and ended up missing the elevator, sending it up empty. There was a long line behind us of able bodied families who wanted to use the elevator and literaly started screaming at the woman, I mean swearing at her for being an idiot. Finally they said, "Fine, we'll just have to take the damn stairs then!"

Really, that elevator is a pain (long wait, narrow, smells like a sweaty armpit) and it's really intended for disabled guests. I have no idea why able bodied people would want to use it. It's not that long of a trip up those stairs. So it goes both ways.

And really, is the DAS really going to stop fraud? From whatI can tell, they'll still scam it, and just come back 20 minutes later to jump on the ride, while the disabled are going to get the raw end with getting an extra half hour thrown on their wait times. I hope it's corrected.

 

[Gomer]

Firstly, no offense taken. I enjoy a good intellectual debate as much as the next guy. I will try to take this point by point, but forgive me if I miss something. Its a bit late for me here.

I truly appreciate your post...but I'll counter anyway (with absolutely no offense meant, just friendly discussion).
dis·crim·i·nate
disˈkriməˌnāt/
verb

1. recognize a distinction; differentiate.
2. make an unjust or prejudicial distinction in the treatment of different categories of people or things, esp. on the grounds of race, sex, or age.

You are using definition 2.

Forgive me if I misinterpret, but I believe you are taking my remarks to mean that I believe that Disney owes all disabilities the same set of accommodations. That is not the case. Disney has the right, and I could even see situations where I would find it just. My argument was that the previous poster was making an unjust judgment on one group of people based on the actions of a small subset of those people. For lack of a better analogy, something similar to racial profiling. They used the fact that members of this group had committed abuses in the past, and used that to justify that the entire population of that group should be held accountable for the actions of those individuals. The claim was not that separating GAC from DAS would be unlawful discrimination, but that the claims of the poster were harmful and prejudicial. I do believe that if Disney acted on the poster's suggestions for the reasons stated, it would be unjust discrimination as a group of people would be held accountable for offenses they did not commit. Whether that would be legal or not, I am not qualified to answer. My objections were more moral than legal.

I truly appreciate your post...but I'll counter anyway (with absolutely no offense meant, just friendly discussion).
Argumentum ad populum with trope. Metynymy. I doubt people weren't "aware" of conditions years before (as you go on to point out). They were quite aware. What it is, truly, is advancement in medical science which allows people who, 20 years ago, couldn't be treated, and therefore were treated to the best of the state of the art at the time (which required institutionalization in some cases), are now capable of living fuller lives.
20 years ago a prosthetic wouldn't allow a man to run (at least not fast or well). Drugs are now available to treat / control a variety of medical illnesses which 20 years ago would have rendered the patient largely incapable of daily interactions in any reliable sense. This is an advancement of medical science, not "social awareness".

I agree with your comments regarding medical advances in many cases. But, in the case of these "invisible disabilities" I do believe that in many ways, social acceptance and the evolution of attitudes towards the disabled have had far more impact than any medical advances.
Speaking from my own personal experiences which are limited to autism. There have been nearly no biomedical breakthroughs in the last 20-30 years. There have been some advances in therapies for which the results are debatable. 20 years ago, people thought the cause of autism was something called "refrigerator mother syndrome". Doctors thought that cold mothers who didn't hug and nurture their children enough caused the behaviors now considered part of ASD. Children diagnosed with autism were thought to be hopelessly incapable of living a normal life and institutionalized with the mother taking the blame for her lack of caring. It was a sign of the times. Social stigmas against working mothers and a culture that leaned towards hiding their infirmed and elderly was not keen on delving into the true meanings of Autism. Relaxing of gender roles and a general push towards acceptance of differences that has been progressing for the last century played a part in changing attitudes towards those with Autism. But the most important factor was frequency of diagnosis. In my home state of New Jersey, 1 in 4 boys is diagnosed with ASD. Everyone knows someone with ASD. Its become a personal issue for many, and the idea of shipping off the afflicted became distasteful as more people had a fame of reference for the disease. And finally, social introduction of film and TV characters bearing ASD characteristics (Big Bang Theory, BBC's Sherlock, Community to name a few) continue increasing that acceptance which leads to more widely socially accepted accommodations made (such as classroom mainstreaming, employment programs)
I admit some of it is medical, but there is social evolution involved as well.

Argumentum ad misericordiam and dicto simpliciter. You are setting up a straw man.
For example...however did our largely wheelchair bound PRESIDENT from 1932 until 1944 make it through life without ADA, I wonder? I'm quite sure FDR required "ramps" at some point.
Granted, FDR largely hid his infirmity from Polio from the general public, but if the point is "mobility"...well, he did just fine without ADA compliant ramps everywhere. Further, I grant he had means and stature to dictate things, but the man wasn't strolling onto stages on a regular basis, and he certainly did travel quite a bit.
My underlying point is, physical and mental disabilities are not "new"...and people were certainly well aware of it then as now. Medical treatment has advanced to allow them greater access than they had before. Your implication is that there was/is some massive popular discrimination against people with disabilities. This simply is not the case.
With respect to "accomodation"...There is a difference between "empowering" someone disabled and "excusing" someone who is disabled. A major difference.
Yep...straw man. Everything you wrote built up to this point, which is really a fallacy.
Again, this is not a personal attack. Far from it. I found your post moving. I am extremely pleased that your son is able to interact with general society in a way that someone 20 years prior would not have been able to. I merely question the further implications and statements you made regarding the ultimate reasons WHY this is the case, and your conclusions.
Cheers!

My reference to the wheelchair ramps was again not intended to show any discrimination against those with disabilities, but in response to the previous poster's comments that adding accommodations for those with "invisible disabilities" was pandering to some new demographic. My intent was to show, that at some point all accommodations where new. I remember hearing people complain in my home town in the early 80's when they added a wheelchair ramp to our library that it was "caving to political correctness" and a "waste of money to appease only a few". All new accommodations will always be met with hesitancy from those who do not like change. My intent was to show that adding GAC/DAS availability for those with autism was merely the most recent instance in a long line of increases in accommodations for those in need.

Long post, and I'm half way through a glass of scotch at the end of a long day. So, if I missed anything I apologize.

 

[Goofyernmost]

I don't think he meant that he let that particular pass go.

Yes, I do remember that now, so I apologize for my jumping the gun. But they did admit that they knew a violation was happening and did nothing about it. I didn't make that part up, just that I did accidentally, relate it to the one posted. But still there is a problem. One allowed to "easily" abuse the system means that they will do it again and let all there friends know as well, and there it goes. So, sorry about that particular card, but I think that the basic problem still exists.

 

[Goofyernmost]

The poster was just stating that someone else, not that poster, had pulled the thing. They didn't say that they let it go.

Yes, I acknowledged that in another answer. I was wrong to be basing it on that particular card, however, it did point out the the problem did and probably will still exist. People that don't want to be confrontational even though they know something is wrong. I understand that particular feeling but it will not help make the system work for those it was intended to work for. Thanks...I guess we are exchanging helpful hints today.

 

[englanddg]

Two CM's put us in the standby line at Pooh and the other guests helped call over a CM to get us in the proper line, so we had some really good interaction with other guests. And it took a little while to get my dad on one of the vehicles for some reason and all the guests waiting in line joked with him for breaking the ride on purpose.

To me, this is part of the "magic" of Disney. We are all here to have fun as a group, so lets do so! That being said, many of the stories I've read (from both sides) on these sorts of threads don't have anything to do with mutual cooperation...and more importantly, many of the defenses I've read more like defense for abuse.

I know you read my "summery of the next 50 pages" post because you responded to it (though you didn't respond to my response to your response).

There was a reason I posted that. It's not to degrade any disability, it's that the general discussion has degraded to a point where it's almost ad hominim (among other logical fallacies) which accomplishes nothing to further the discussion. It merely inflames people.

"My kid threw a tantrum and without GAC we wouldn't be able to do the parks" just sounds snotty...seriously, think about it. What parent hasn't dealt with a moody kid? NONE! We all have. As I have stated before, my kid's behavior this past trip (and she's 8 for a few more days) caused me to pull her out of Hollywood Studios, and we didn't do squat that day.

That being said, you are right, it's not always a "golden ticket", especially for those with ECV / Wheelchair access.

My point is, we DO get it. We know what a whiny/tired/hot/angry/upset/gripy kid is like. We are parents.

The condition I note most in "defense of GAC" posts is autism. And, I've said this before, and I'll repeat myself. There is a major difference between someone who is severly autistic and someone who is merely on the spectrum. I have worked with autistic children. I bring that up not to say that I am a medical expert, or that I am a parent of one...I am not. However, I do understand the condition, I do understand the stresses it brings, and I also empathize with the parents of children who have been diagnosed.

And yet, this seems to be the first group to call it a "front of the line" pass (because they don't have to deal with physical issues) and the first group to be up in arms about the change (just peruse the web...it's not the Down's groups or the Cerebral Palsy groups tossing up much fight)

And really, is the DAS really going to stop fraud? From whatI can tell, they'll still scam it, and just come back 20 minutes later to jump on the ride, while the disabled are going to get the raw end with getting an extra half hour thrown on their wait times. I hope it's corrected.

They most likely will. My suspicion is that this is all going to be done away with later with FP+...and all that will be left is a "GAC" which merely gains you access to alternate mobility accessible queues / vehicles.

 

[Nemo14]

To me, this is part of the "magic" of Disney. We are all here to have fun as a group, so lets do so! That being said, many of the stories I've read (from both sides) on these sorts of threads don't have anything to do with mutual cooperation...and more importantly, many of the defenses I've read more like defense for abuse.

I know you read my "summery of the next 50 pages" post because you responded to it (though you didn't respond to my response to your response).

There was a reason I posted that. It's not to degrade any disability, it's that the general discussion has degraded to a point where it's almost ad hominim (among other logical fallacies) which accomplishes nothing to further the discussion. It merely inflames people.

"My kid threw a tantrum and without GAC we wouldn't be able to do the parks" just sounds snotty...seriously, think about it. What parent hasn't dealt with a moody kid? NONE! We all have. As I have stated before, my kid's behavior this past trip (and she's 8 for a few more days) caused me to pull her out of Hollywood Studios, and we didn't do squat that day.

That being said, you are right, it's not always a "golden ticket", especially for those with ECV / Wheelchair access.

My point is, we DO get it. We know what a whiny/tired/hot/angry/upset/gripy kid is like. We are parents.

The condition I note most in "defense of GAC" posts is autism. And, I've said this before, and I'll repeat myself. There is a major difference between someone who is severly autistic and someone who is merely on the spectrum. I have worked with autistic children. I bring that up not to say that I am a medical expert, or that I am a parent of one...I am not. However, I do understand the condition, I do understand the stresses it brings, and I also empathize with the parents of children who have been diagnosed.

And yet, this seems to be the first group to call it a "front of the line" pass (because they don't have to deal with physical issues) and the first group to be up in arms about the change (just peruse the web...it's not the Down's groups or the Cerebral Palsy groups tossing up much fight)



They most likely will. My suspicion is that this is all going to be done away with later with FP+...and all that will be left is a "GAC" which merely gains you access to alternate mobility accessible queues / vehicles.

Not to beat this topic to death, but I just want to say that yes, as a parent I've seen temper tantrums from "whiny/tired/hot/angry/upset/gripy" kids. But I can assure you that a meltdown from an Asperger's child is entirely different. I used to feel the same way that all they need is some strong discipline, but having dealt with some of these kids up close and personal, I can attest to the fact that this is like comparing an M-80 to an atomic bomb. It's a whole different ballgame, and it has to be handled much differently.
Just my 2 cents.

 

[jrlbc06]

This is my concern. Will the return time take into account the second line I and my family will have to stand in? (I use a wheelchair, parents are seniors who have used GAC, I have also used one at certain times) With only two exceptions we have to use the car that takes the wheelchair. If we are told to come back at say 1:30 because that is when I would only have to wait 20 minutes they will most likely be incorrect. We have to wait 20 minutes plus the extra time in the second line. Sometimes on a ramp which is hard in a wheelchair. My family has waited up to an hour in these lines.

I would expect that with the MM + DAS there will be far fewer people in the secondary wheelchair line at any one time. In addition, the parties composing the potential hour long wait that is typically in this line will be spaced out throughout the regular line rather than all bunched up at the wheelchair line.

You are worried that the secondary wheelchair line will remain the same and be added on top of the standby line you will now be waiting in. The same number of parties may be in the line, but they should in theory be spaced out throughout the standby line and not all bunched up at the end.

 

[jrlbc06]

I really don't want to sound bi****, but basically, you knew that the pass was blatantly bogus, all boys none named Angie and yet you, as a CM decided not to challenge it? Could this be part of the reason why there has been so much abuse, because no one is willing to get involved when it is obvious what is going on? Policy is in place that would eliminate the altering of any pass, yet there it was, alarmingly altered and you just let it go with a warning that someone else might not be so nice. I don't understand. Even if the manager were to override you, it still would have totally deleted whatever advantage that having it had for that group as they would be delayed while waiting for the manager. Now I'm really starting to feel sorry for those with real disabilities because it appears that no one is looking out for them. It also means that the new system has no better chance of working then the old one did, just as long as CM's are willing to just ignore it.

I don't really thing that those that still need it should worry, the only thing that is going to change is the name of the card.

Read more carefully that particular post! The pass was confiscated. Noone was allowed to ride.

 

[jrlbc06]

Also, wheelchair bound guests, even with the card, have to wait until the accessible vehicles come around and a lot of attractions only use one. And there's usually a line of disabled guests, so you're waiting a long while. So asking someone to come back 20 or 30 minutes later to use the card only to have them keep waiting in line even longer makes absolutely no sense.

Once again, wheelchair bound guests will NOT use the DAS and will NOT receive a return time card and will NOT be asked to come back later.

At accessible queue attractions they will wait in the standby line.

At non-accessible attractions they will be given priority access through the exit.

They will not utilize the DAS program at all and this focus on wheelchair bound guests is really off topic.

 

[flynnibus]

You cannot legislate or demand an end to discrimination. It will never happen

But you can force movement with legislation. Hence laws to outlaw discrimination going all the way back to the reconstruction period. Without those laws there never would be a framework to PUSH individuals off their rut. No a law is not going to change someone who has always thought of a black person as a 'colored person' but you will force change.

However, it is perfectly legal to discriminate when it comes to sex, age, religion, disability, etc., with employment practices in particular, if the case can be made that the person could not, due to their situation, fufill the role required by the work

Most reasonable people would actually look at it the otherway.. that its ILLEGAL to discriminate against protected classes WITH THE EXCEPTION of ability to do the job. Not go off saying 'its perfectly legal to discriminate against protected classes...'

Argumentum ad populum with trope. Metynymy. I doubt people weren't "aware" of conditions years before (as you go on to point out). They were quite aware. What it is, truly, is advancement in medical science which allows people who, 20 years ago, couldn't be treated, and therefore were treated to the best of the state of the art at the time (which required institutionalization in some cases), are now capable of living fuller lives.

20 years ago a prosthetic wouldn't allow a man to run (at least not fast or well). Drugs are now available to treat / control a variety of medical illnesses which 20 years ago would have rendered the patient largely incapable of daily interactions in any reliable sense. This is an advancement of medical science, not "social awareness".

It is social driven change. The laws were composed to combat the discrimination prevalent in the open market. The ADA was brought about because the laws passed in the 60s and 70s were proving to not be enough to ensure the disabled and handicapped were not being excluded from trying to live normal lives. These laws were not brought about because 'hey, now with these new prosthetic these people can actually live their lives...' - they were enacted to provide legal recourse for the disabled and to FORCE change through new building standards to raise the MINIMUM level of accessibility in public places while requiring organizations to accommodate an individual's disability.

I mean.. just read the freakin law. It's right there in the PURPOSE part of the law...

" unlike individuals who have experienced discrimination on the basis of race, color, sex, national origin, religion, or age, individuals who have experienced discrimination on the basis of disability have often had no legal recourse to redress such discrimination"

"the Nation's proper goals regarding individuals with disabilities are to assure equality of opportunity, full participation, independent living, and economic self-sufficiency for such individuals; and"

etc..

For example...however did our largely wheelchair bound PRESIDENT from 1932 until 1944 make it through life without ADA, I wonder? I'm quite sure FDR required "ramps" at some point.

Granted, FDR largely hid his infirmity from Polio from the general public, but if the point is "mobility"...well, he did just fine without ADA compliant ramps everywhere

*facepalm* 'he did just fine?' - The man had to LIVE A LIE and HIDE his disability from the public. How did other people do? Well they were treated like and had to live life as 3rd class people... confined in what they could do and where they could go. Can you imagine being a poor child with physical handicaps when you can't even find a bathroom to use or need to have someone carry you most of the time because your chair or walker is unusable pretty much everywhere? Or if you lived in the city you couldn't even ride public transit at all.

My underlying point is, physical and mental disabilities are not "new"...and people were certainly well aware of it then as now. Medical treatment has advanced to allow them greater access than they had before. Your implication is that there was/is some massive popular discrimination against people with disabilities. This simply is not the case.

Just remember how kids treated kids with mental disabilities when you were a kid.. and you called the kid a '' and picked on them.. and how special ed was looked down upon by every non-special ed kid in school.

People's needs were flat out IGNORED by businesses. They were considered 'a hassle' and excluded from participation or even access. It wasn't like in the 90s someone woke up and said 'oh man.. there are people with wheelchairs now? They can go outside?? Cool! lets embrace them'. These people were treated like crap.. tossed aside as burdens and something you were told you had to tolerate and then you could walk away and forget them.

The justification for these laws are WRITTEN RIGHT IN THEM. Is it really that hard for people to google and look at the text of a law?
Justification for the original version of the ADA Act - http://www.ada.gov/archive/adastat91.htm#Anchor-Sec-49575

I mean.. we're not talking the 1800s here... this is society that most adults in this forum would have actual lived through.