Travel Junkie
Well-Known Member
Theater productions have been playing with the idea of gender and ethnicity for thousands of years. This is a common practice and one of the reason why I love it. I'm surprised this is even an issue.
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GiveMeTheMusic
Well-Known Member
I hope these people never find out about Hamilton, they'd lose their galdarned minds.
Stevek
Well-Known Member
Disneyland fans, upset about something, I mean everything? That's news to me ; )
Curious Constance
Well-Known Member
Exactly. Why not?
Is a black person, or any person who isn't white, physically not able to honor a Norwegian culture?
FerretAfros
Well-Known Member
If it's not a copy of the movie, then why did they copy so many elements of it, without interpreting them in a new way? Everything from scenic design, to background characters' costumes, to plot holes all came directly from the film. Sure, they made a couple cuts for runtime, but by all accounts, it's pretty much a by-the-numbers retelling of the film. Except that suddenly the cast is more diverse for no apparent reason
They can honor it, but I'm not sure they can accurately represent it. I can respect and honor Tibetan monks, but I sure wouldn't feel comfortable portraying one myself. Considering how few changes were made to adapt the production to a theater venue, this one seems like a big departure to me. If they had truly started the production from scratch and made changes to the visual style and story of the film, like the did with Aladdin, I don't think I would have a problem with it. But it seems like they're speaking out of both sides of their mouth here
D
Deleted member 107043
Original Poster
First, as you stated, it isn't an exact copy of the movie and the color blind casing IS interpreting it in a new way. Second, even though many familiar elements have been lifted from the screen to the stage, for all intents and purposes this is a scaled down modern Broadway production. By its very nature it is meant to be a completely different kind of experience than a movie.
Well that's the thing, isn't it? As far as I can tell there are a bunch of non-Norwegians here offering their opinions. I'd be curious to know the viewpoint from a native of that country. To me Frozen is about as authentically Norwegian as Panda Express is authentically Chinese, which is to say not very.
Curious Constance
Well-Known Member
I think the person who could portray a Tibetan monk the best would be the best person to portray a Tibetan monk, don't you? Regardless of what race they were, whoever does the job the best should do it. Don't you think? Would you prefer a white person to play Elsa if they couldn't sing or act as good as someone else who wasn't white?
flynnibus
Premium Member
So you are of the camp these are the best performers available for the role, others are not avilabke and there isn't social activism in casting? Just want to be clear where you fall...
why does costume and appearance suddenly have these "invisible parts". Why do we bother putting wigs on Anna.... Her hair isn't essential to the story elements.
yookeroo
Well-Known Member
Is there a point where they copy so many elements of the movie, they're required to copy all the elements? Is it 50%? 75%? Just curious.
Old Mouseketeer
Well-Known Member
Straw man much? Who said anything about someone's personal feelings?
This guy is white... That doesn't make a suitable TRON casting
It's not about race.... As much as the advocates wish to paint protagonists as racists for not going along.
It depends. Is he supposed to be the character Tron, or Crom, the accounting program played by Peter Jurasik?
D
Deleted member 107043
Original Poster
FWIW, J.K. Rowling is defending the casting of a black woman to play Hemoine in the stage play Harry Potter and The Cursed Child. Given the European locale and the iconic nature of the Harry Potter film series, plus the small but vocal outcry from fans, it's not a stretch to draw comparisons between the color blind casting of this show and Frozen Live at DCA.
http://moviepilot.com/posts/3953945...-about-hermione-being-black-author-speaks-out
There's no question that Disney is doing the right thing here.
http://moviepilot.com/posts/3953945...-about-hermione-being-black-author-speaks-out
There's no question that Disney is doing the right thing here.
flynnibus
Premium Member
Dodge, spin, humor.... Yet fail to address the point
GiveMeTheMusic
Well-Known Member
Nontraditional casting is a common device in theatre. It's not political activism, it's a standard practice that happens constantly. David Merrick made headlines when he instituted an all-black cast in Hello, Dolly! back in the 60s, with Pearl Bailey taking the lead and Cab Calloway playing opposite her. Their ethnicities did not suit the story at all, as the script is clear that Dolly Levi is an Irish woman living in turn of the century NYC. The first black Phantom of the Opera performed in 1990 (Robert Guillaume, who later voiced Rafiki). ABC aired a Disney produced TV movie of Cinderella starring Brandy as the titular princess in 1997. It also featured Victor Garber as the King, Whoopi Goldberg as the Queen and their Filipino son, Paolo Montalban. Viewers were also expected to believe that Bernadette Peters, the most Caucasian woman on earth, had a biological daughter who was black. Toni Braxton played Belle in Beauty and the Beast on Broadway in 1998. People who resembled their characters in no way shape, or form portrayed them in Aladdin at the Hyperion (again, while an Asian American playing Aladdin may not be unbelievable, it's fundamentally wrong to the character's original design).
Are you implying that Disney was working under some affirmative action mandate when they produced Cinderella for ABC, or cast Braxton as Belle, or when they cast Aladdin at the Hyperion? It's just the choice those creative teams took at that time for their projects. Frozen is no different. There's no liberal conspiracy afoot in TDA to infect children with the noxious notion of a racially incorrect representation of Elsa.
flynnibus
Premium Member
Jkr has long been demonstrated as an activist and super progressive. Her position on the move is not really surprising to anyone.and she has also been part of the production, so it was no news to her.
It's her creation, she can rewrite it how she pleases and people can be onboard with it or not. It's no different than Lucas reworking his stuff... You don't have to like it if you don't want to nor do you need to ignore it. But you aren't likely to change the author's own mind.
Just because it's her choice, doesn't make the decision disappear or be ambivilant... It's just the choice she has made.
The situation isn't really the same as Dca frozen tho. Jkr is writing it as the character could have been black... Not that it's a black person playing a white hermoine and you are supposed to ignore her skin color. You aren't going to see her wearing a brown wig to look the role as cast in the film. Contrast that with frozen casting which is not saying Ella is a black character but that you are supposed to close your eyes to The skin color of the performer.
Very different justifications
flynnibus
Premium Member
While what you say about nontraditional takes on existing stories/productions is obviously true, but your cites are not really the same topic here.
First, we already addressed alladin.
Second, Most of those examples you cited were examples of twists on the adaptation to make the production intentionally different, or like the brandy example attempts to implicitly make the production about the cast itself.
This is not "color blind" casting - they didn't end up with an all black cast by accident in your hello dolly example.
These are examples of adaptations - not color blind casting.
Casting the black Elsa is not an adaptation - the character and role have not been changed from the source material, you are just supposed to ignore the mismatch to the source, the mismatch in hair, etc. the character has not been changed to a black woman, you are supposed to be blind to the change.
Note: brandi didn't wear a blonde wig... Elsa does wear a wig to stay to the movie's design.
The only real comparative in your list is the poto example.
You had a pretty good post right up till the end where you couldn't help yourself.
Disneys choices in the past have certainly been intentional. For instance the wheelChair bound casting was Disney jumping through extensive hoops to make that happen... For a role that could have been filled by nearly anyone. Yet Disney redesigns the costumes/sets, accepts limits on the roles abilities, to cast an actress whose impact is background and ensemble singing?? She could not fit the casting needs of the role, yet Disney redeisgns the show just to fit her limits. That's not casting, that's a statement.
Instead of talking about all the kinds of possible adaptions that have been done in theater, why can't we stick to the Scenario at hand...
Old Mouseketeer
Well-Known Member
Actually, no. Your comment lacked specificity. If your point was this guy didn't look like Tron or Flynn, OK. But he would make an OK Crom. I addressed the point of your TRON comment. If someone calls you out for the ambiguity of your comment (we all fail at that sooner or later in real-time blogging), don't get y--it just makes you look like a jerk. Or a troll. Your choice.
FerretAfros
Well-Known Member
If we must present credentials prior to having an opinion, I have Norwegian ancestry and grew up in a region of the US that has a heavy Scandinavian influence. I agree that Frozen isn't authentic in any meaningful way, but there's no denying that the aesthetic choices like location, architecture, (some of the) costumes, and art of the film were inspired by Norwegian traditions
I guess this gets to my bigger beef with Frozen: so many of the visuals were lifted directly from Norwegian tradition, yet the whole thing is set in some fictional kingdom that never existed. How would we feel if they had done that with a Chinese or Indian aesthetic, both of which have a distinct iconic style, but a storyline that doesn't have anything to do with the location? It kind of seems like cultural appropriation, which is apparently only acceptable because it's a "white" culture that they're stealing
As I mentioned with regards to Aladdin, both the film and show designers made efforts to have a stylized production that didn't simply copy Middle Eastern designs. Mulan similarly took liberties with a stylized design, even though the film was set in a real place. The Frozen stuff appears to be lifted straight out of traditional designs with very little modification, lending some superficial credence to the claims of authenticity; they simply copied without attempting to interpret it and make it their own.
With that as my framework, is it really that unreasonable for me to hope that the actors portraying these characters look passably-Nordic? Or should I just abandon all hope because the damage has already been done with other elements of the film/production?
D
Deleted member 107043
Original Poster
flynnibus
Premium Member
Oh please... You were just looking for a way out. We've been talking about CHARACTERS the entire time. I said TRON, the name of a specific character. So, now, you have your specificity, shall we try again?
Old Mouseketeer
Well-Known Member
I was under the impression that TRON was the title of a movie and Tron was the name of the character. I was making a joke because I don't respect your reactionary arguments. I think you've dug yourself into a hole. But that's your problem.