Frozen - Live at The Hyperion

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Sped2424

Well-Known Member
Millions of Asian people in the Middle East maybe? Go away and learn some geography.
Aladdin wasn't white yet 99 percent of the time he was played by a white guy in the show and no one had trouble suspending their disbelief please explain that? Same with Jasmine and not a single parent had to have a talk with their kid then about any of it. But make Elsa dark and suddenly we got an issue lol people are funny in their hypocrisy.
 

mickeyfan5534

Well-Known Member
In 'issues' like this black Elsa thing, I always joke about how people like these who scream racism at the fact a character who was white is played by a person of color want to be oppressed. I think that's the best case here. Get over yourselves and if you don't like it, don't go to the show, because heaven forbid an actress make her living by doing her job that she auditioned for and was cast in fair and square.
 

flynnibus

Premium Member
Tiana's race is central to her storyline; it's an actual story element.
What part of tiaras story is tied to being black and not something else?

How many Asian people do you find in the middle east? None. The middle east is an area with almost zero cultural diversity. I'm not doing this anymore. Have fun

Ever heard of the spice road? Might want to reconsider your view about the Middle East and who hangs out where.
 

flynnibus

Premium Member
In 'issues' like this black Elsa thing, I always joke about how people like these who scream racism at the fact a character who was white is played by a person of color want to be oppressed. I think that's the best case here. Get over yourselves and if you don't like it, don't go to the show, because heaven forbid an actress make her living by doing her job that she auditioned for and was cast in fair and square.

It's about a misalignment of what people expect the character to be... Not so much a bout race. Same way people would be miffed about gender swaps in characters.

Smaller changes people can get over quickly (a characters complexion differing to a degree... But still passable..

"Look the part" still has meaning. When people do "color blind casting" you are going to create gaps people will notice. How much do want to push it will of course be subjective and may cause negative attention because you are disrupting the pre notions people have about the subject matter.

Like if you have a part where two people are supposed to be brother and sister of a certain age... You shouldn't cast blindly to the point their relation becomes a point of distraction.
 

GiveMeTheMusic

Well-Known Member
What part of tiaras story is tied to being black and not something else?



Ever heard of the spice road? Might want to reconsider your view about the Middle East and who hangs out where.

Tiana's story centers around her socioeconomic status as a poor black woman in New Orleans in a segregated society

Of course there are Far East Asians in the Middle East, but not on a huge scale at that time. Not that it matters, because according to the people on the other side of this argument, the guy I posted above looks just like this:

image_3ed34004.jpeg


:|

It's fine if you don't like the colorblind casting, but don't pretend that Michael K. Lee looked anything like Aladdin, who was clearly Arabian in the film and not Asian.

Colorblind casting has been going on at the Hyperion since 2003, but only now, when originally white characters are affected, is a stink being raised.
 

flynnibus

Premium Member
Tiana's story centers around her socioeconomic status as a poor black woman in New Orleans in a segregated society

More that she's simply poor and struggling... And the locale the film is set in.

Sound familiar? Like what race would be royalty in Scandinavia in the 19thncentury?

Of course there are Far East Asians in the Middle East, but not on a huge scale at that time. Not that it matters, because according to the people on the other side of this argument, the guy I posted above looks just like this:

image_3ed34004.jpeg


:|

It's fine if you don't like the colorblind casting, but don't pretend that Michael K. Lee looked anything like Aladdin, who was clearly Arabian in the film and not Asian.

Colorblind casting has been going on at the Hyperion since 2003, but only now, when originally white characters are affected, is a stink being raised.

One... Being Asian on stage in a huge theatre isn't that far off depending on his stature and vocals. It's not like casting spicoli as Aladdin.

Two... This isn't a new debate... Including the Aladdin show. That's some serious revisionist thinking. Hech , let's not forget the wheelchair bound actress debate too. Disney has been very progressive with the cast in that theatre in the past and this is nota new debate by any means.
 

GiveMeTheMusic

Well-Known Member
More that she's simply poor and struggling... And the locale the film is set in.

Sound familiar? Like what race would be royalty in Scandinavia in the 19thncentury?



One... Being Asian on stage in a huge theatre isn't that far off depending on his stature and vocals. It's not like casting spicoli as Aladdin.

Two... This isn't a new debate... Including the Aladdin show. That's some serious revisionist thinking. Hech , let's not forget the wheelchair bound actress debate too. Disney has been very progressive with the cast in that theatre in the past and this is nota new debate by any means.

C'mon. It's intellectually dishonest to say that Michael K. Lee is fine casting for Aladdin but black Elsa is not. Even from the balcony Lee did not look brown, which Aladdin is in the film. Lee would never make it past one cut at a face character audition for Aladdin. White guys were also cast as Aladdin in the show, as well as Latino guys. If there were any real Arabic actors cast in the role, I never saw or heard of them.

Jafar, who is paler skinned in the film than Aladdin and not black in the slightest, was played by several black men on a regular basis. They didn't resemble the character in the slightest.

You can't tell me that doesn't violate the same "character integrity" principles that a black Elsa does. Incorrect racial casting is incorrect racial casting, no matter how you slice it.

So the poster above was fine with colorblind casting Aladdin, but not Frozen, and couldn't give a legit answer as to why. If you feel it violates character integrity, then Aladdin did the same. You can't have it both ways.

I do remember the wheelchair uproar. Again, much ado about nothing.
 

Old Mouseketeer

Well-Known Member
The article is ridiculous. It doesn't make sense of its own positions. And I'm going to scream if one more person says "well what if they cast a white Tiana?!?!?"

Tiana's race is central to her storyline; it's an actual story element. Elsa's race is not a story element. She lives in a fictional kingdom in a fictional time, and there is room for theatrical interpretation. This is not rocket science folks

So every Pocahontas on-stage is at least part Native American? And every Mulan is Asian (much less Chinese)? Hint: they're not. How can one actress play Jasmine, Poca, and Anna? Or Poca and Mulan? Or Poca and Rapunzel? This is a real thing. But there's an African-American actor who plays Sebastian and a Red Car News Boy, but can't play Flynn, even though almost all the other Flynn's also do Sebastian.

This is an evolving thing in theater, and relatively new to Disney Parks.

One more thing--How many Captain Hooks are actual amputees? There hasn't even been one audition call for amputee performers (which is an actual thing in Hollywood). And you have guys playing Mrs. Incredible and Queen of Hearts. And most Mickeys are girls. But how many Princesses are drag queens? That's a Magical Map I'd PAY to see!
 

wdrive

Well-Known Member
Aladdin wasn't white yet 99 percent of the time he was played by a white guy in the show and no one had trouble suspending their disbelief please explain that? Same with Jasmine and not a single parent had to have a talk with their kid then about any of it. But make Elsa dark and suddenly we got an issue lol people are funny in their hypocrisy.

There have been plenty of white performers cast as a meet and greet Aladdin. I was originally talking about character integrity and having a white meet and greet Aladdin and white Hyperion Aladdin matches up and keeps character integrity.
 

GiveMeTheMusic

Well-Known Member
So every Pocahontas on-stage is at least part Native American? And every Mulan is Asian (much less Chinese)? Hint: they're not. How can one actress play Jasmine, Poca, and Anna? Or Poca and Mulan? Or Poca and Rapunzel? This is a real thing. But there's an African-American actor who plays Sebastian and a Red Car News Boy, but can't play Flynn, even though almost all the other Flynn's also do Sebastian.

This is an evolving thing in theater, and relatively new to Disney Parks.

One more thing--How many Captain Hooks are actual amputees? There hasn't even been one audition call for amputee performers (which is an actual thing in Hollywood). And you have guys playing Mrs. Incredible and Queen of Hearts. And most Mickeys are girls. But how many Princesses are drag queens? That's a Magical Map I'd PAY to see!

What does any of this have to do with having a white Tiana (which will never happen)? That's the straw man so many MiceChat commenters are throwing out. Disney has fudged the face casting of characters like Poca for years, but that doesn't mean a white Tiana should or could fly.
 

flynnibus

Premium Member
C'mon. It's intellectually dishonest to say that Michael K. Lee is fine casting for Aladdin but black Elsa is not. Even from the balcony Lee did not look brown, which Aladdin is in the film. Lee would never make it past one cut at a face character audition for Aladdin. White guys were also cast as Aladdin in the show, as well as Latino guys. If there were any real Arabic actors cast in the role, I never saw or heard of them.

Jafar, who is paler skinned in the film than Aladdin and not black in the slightest, was played by several black men on a regular basis. They didn't resemble the character in the slightest.

You can't tell me that doesn't violate the same "character integrity" principles that a black Elsa does. Incorrect racial casting is incorrect racial casting, no matter how you slice it.

So the poster above was fine with colorblind casting Aladdin, but not Frozen, and couldn't give a legit answer as to why. If you feel it violates character integrity, then Aladdin did the same. You can't have it both ways.

I do remember the wheelchair uproar. Again, much ado about nothing.

1) face characters and stage performers are not in the same discussion for a lot of reasons.
2)From 100ft away... People aren't going to nitpick an Asian or tan complexion vs Persian or Turk. Their complexions look similar enough that it's not a consequential difference in the theater. That's what I'm trying to get across and why the Aladdin character exsmples you've noted are rather bland. They are 'close enough' they don't cause a huge stink. Again, we are talking stage productions, not video or face to face. There is a lot of wiggle room by the very nature of the production.

If you find them casting a redhead pale Irishman as Aladdin with a heavy accent let me know. I never saw one of mr lee's performances so I don't know what his dialect sounds like to know how he sounded in the role, but visually is argue he falls within a reasonable window. Again, he can look the part within reason.

3) jafar, yup... Cast as a black man, and it stood out verse the source material... But is not shockingly out of place. I think more significant was they portrayed him as a more physically imposing figure in the show verse a more thin, older wizard who relied on his magic and influence for power.

And again, this did not go unnoticed. You keep saying this is some new complaint from people... It's not. It's just after almost 10 ten years when it came to the Aladdin show the hubbub was over.

4) character integrity. I gave examples of how the visuals of the other examples fall within semi reasonable ranges or were changes that could be believable.... Like a black man in the ottoman ages of the Middle East

But a black Scandinavia princess? That doesn't blur at all... That requires you to play color blind.

And if you believe the audience must close their eyes to these visual changes, why bother with the hair and other recognizable traits from the film? Why not play 'costume blind' too?

And the wheelchair cast member was really out of place and should not have been done. That was more about a statement and it was detracting from the show.

What if Alladin required a walking cane for the show... That too would be detracting, even if the guy could act the rest of the character.
 
D

Deleted member 107043

Original Poster
Tiana's story centers around her socioeconomic status as a poor black woman in New Orleans in a segregated society

Of course there are Far East Asians in the Middle East, but not on a huge scale at that time. Not that it matters, because according to the people on the other side of this argument, the guy I posted above looks just like this:

image_3ed34004.jpeg


:|

It's fine if you don't like the colorblind casting, but don't pretend that Michael K. Lee looked anything like Aladdin, who was clearly Arabian in the film and not Asian.

Colorblind casting has been going on at the Hyperion since 2003, but only now, when originally white characters are affected, is a stink being raised.

FWIW, here is Scott Weinger, the actor who voiced Aladdin in the film.

scott_present.jpg
 

Stevek

Well-Known Member
This is an interesting discussion for sure. On the one hand, I completely understand the concept of character integrity...most folks have an expectation that when they see a character, whether that be in a meet and grope or on the stage, they expect that character to look like the person they've seen on-screen. I do remember seeing an asian actor playing Aladdin and thinking, "that's different" but it didn't effect my enjoyment of the show. I think that in this case (probably similar to the Potter play), the change is probably feels more glaring...you really can't get more polar opposite of a blonde haired blue eyed "Norwegian" than someone with darker skin (black, Asian, Hispanic...all would fall into that category). My biggest concern here is whether people are trying to make this into a "race" thing or calling out people as racist because they think a fictional character should look like. I really don't think or would like to think that folks here aren't racist and it's really just a simple matter of "I want the character onstage to look like the character I've seen on the screen." I personally don't think there's anything wrong with that opinion and while I agree with it to some extent, I ultimately don't care as long as the show doesn't suck. Quality entertainment is all that really matters to me.

All I can say is thank goodness they didn't cast a man as Elsa? That discussion would be fun...
 

Stevek

Well-Known Member
What does any of this have to do with having a white Tiana (which will never happen)? That's the straw man so many MiceChat commenters are throwing out. Disney has fudged the face casting of characters like Poca for years, but that doesn't mean a white Tiana should or could fly.
I'm not sure how the Tiana thing is any different to be honest. A Scandanavian (very white) character being played by a black performer or Tiana being played by a white performer. Is your opinion that Tiana being black is integral to her character's story whereas Elsa's isn't? I guess I can see that to some extent.

Again, it comes down to different peoples perception on the levels of character integrity. I think that with Aladdin, folks didn't really have issues with Asian or African American characters playing parts because most of movie characters had a darker middle eastern complexion. Basically, it was close enough and made it "believable" with regards to those characters they saw on screen. The Elsa change (or if it was Tiana) would be much more jarring and at the extreme end of following character integrity.

Ultimately, I think Disney is pretty much saying that character integrity is out the window on stage shows but will be followed pretty closely when it comes to face or parade characters in the parks/resorts. And that's fine...we really are spending too much time debating this to be honest. If character integrity at a Disney park is the sword some folks want to fall on, well, those folks really do need to get out more and realize what's truly important in life. If #notwhiteelsa is going to ruin the show for someone, they should just avoid it and spend more time in mom's basement contemplating their sad life.
 

flynnibus

Premium Member
It's only a topic now because people have made hiring practices more important than the actual job description.

The character isn't race, gender, or stature neutral, so the casting shouldnt be either.
 

flynnibus

Premium Member
What if every 3rd Donald Duck cartoon made Donald a brown mallard because that's what the artist assigned to that episode liked to draw instead.

The character model is not let to float freely and people seeing a Donald Duck cartoon are expecting him to look a certain way.

These are not free floating characters - there is an existing model that is not only existing, but in active use in other mediums
 

Andrew_Ryan

Well-Known Member
The difference between casting a black Elsa vs casting a white Tiana can be explained in the history of race relations in this country and how it relates to representation in theater.

White people are born of certain privileges in America that black people do not have, including the amount of representation they are given in Disney films and the kinds of opportunities they have in portraying characters at the parks. White people have nothing to lose by seeing a black Scandinavian princess. Tiana, a character that has roots in a much more recent, specific time and place in America's history, a character who's race plays directly into the music and art of New Orleans in the 20's, should not be played as a white person.

I did a quick internet search to find someone else summarizing this better than me. This is the perfect explanation, from theater advocate Howard Sherman:

"One of the great fallacies employed by those who resist making the American theatre more diverse is that when opening up traditionally or even specifically white roles to people of color, it should be a two way street – that if black, API, Latino, and Native Americans can play Willy Loman or Hedda Gabler, white actors should be able to perform in the works of August Wilson. That’s nonsense. The whole point of diversifying our theatre is not to give white artists yet more opportunities, but to try to address the systemic imbalance, and indeed exclusion, that artists of color, artists with disabilities and even non-male artists have experienced. Of course, when it comes to roles specifically written for POC, those roles should be played by actors of that race or ethnicity – and again, not reducing it to the level of only Italians should play Italians and only Jews should plays Jews, but that no one should be painting their faces to pretend to an ethnicity which is obviously not theirs, while denying that opportunity to people of that race. To those who would claim that our theatre isn’t centered around white men, look no further than the results of the Dramatists Guild’s The Count, which shows that four out of every five plays produced in America is by a white man. As for those who charge racism on the part of people striving for equality in the 21st century, I would suggest you don’t fully appreciate the racial struggles that have been part of this country’s original sin since Europeans began eradicating Native Americans and forcibly bringing Africans to these shores as slaves. Perhaps those in theatre can’t ever hope to directly redress this history, but we can at least seek to model a better world in our work and on our stages. And certainly we can do better than to engage in ad hominem attacks and threats against others in our field who seek equality.”

http://www.hesherman.com/2015/10/16...t-says-more-than-a-long-blog-about-diversity/
 

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