Frozen - Live at The Hyperion

[George Lucas on a Bench]

Yay, yet another attraction to draw people way from Haunted Mansion and improve my experience.

 

[flynnibus]

The difference between casting a black Elsa vs casting a white Tiana can be explained in the history of race relations in this country and how it relates to representation in theater.

White people are born of certain privileges in America that black people do not have, including the amount of representation they are given in Disney films and the kinds of opportunities they have in portraying characters at the parks. White people have nothing to lose by seeing a black Scandinavian princess. Tiana, a character that has roots in a much more recent, specific time and place in America's history, a character who's race plays directly into the music and art of New Orleans in the 20's, should not be played as a white person.

I did a quick internet search to find someone else summarizing this better than me. This is the perfect explanation, from theater advocate Howard Sherman:

"One of the great fallacies employed by those who resist making the American theatre more diverse is that when opening up traditionally or even specifically white roles to people of color, it should be a two way street – that if black, API, Latino, and Native Americans can play Willy Loman or Hedda Gabler, white actors should be able to perform in the works of August Wilson. That’s nonsense. The whole point of diversifying our theatre is not to give white artists yet more opportunities, but to try to address the systemic imbalance, and indeed exclusion, that artists of color, artists with disabilities and even non-male artists have experienced. Of course, when it comes to roles specifically written for POC, those roles should be played by actors of that race or ethnicity – and again, not reducing it to the level of only Italians should play Italians and only Jews should plays Jews, but that no one should be painting their faces to pretend to an ethnicity which is obviously not theirs, while denying that opportunity to people of that race. To those who would claim that our theatre isn’t centered around white men, look no further than the results of the Dramatists Guild’s The Count, which shows that four out of every five plays produced in America is by a white man. As for those who charge racism on the part of people striving for equality in the 21st century, I would suggest you don’t fully appreciate the racial struggles that have been part of this country’s original sin since Europeans began eradicating Native Americans and forcibly bringing Africans to these shores as slaves. Perhaps those in theatre can’t ever hope to directly redress this history, but we can at least seek to model a better world in our work and on our stages. And certainly we can do better than to engage in ad hominem attacks and threats against others in our field who seek equality.”

http://www.hesherman.com/2015/10/16...t-says-more-than-a-long-blog-about-diversity/

So we should take affirmative action in theatre to undo the unjust inbalance created by the people writing the plays? That's the guy's platform... that these performers are under represented in the source material, so we should just ignore the source material to make up for that imbalance?

That's stupid. If you don't like the source material, get new source material that fits the kind of diversity you want to employ. If four of the five plays are written by people who don't include people of color in their material... maybe figure out why they are four of the five.. vs the diversification you seek.

This guy's message is saying its exactly what people pretend it's not... social activism. People claim 'its because they are the best person for the roll..' -- this guy lays it out right here saying "but to try to address the systemic imbalance, and indeed exclusion, that artists of color, artists with disabilities and even non-male artists have experienced"

It's not about being 'color blind', he actually directly counters that and says its about ensuring representation and equality.

 

[brb1006]

So I guess Olaf might be Hyperions answer to Genie from the Aladdin musical.

 

[George Lucas on a Bench]

I think the role of Olaf should be played by a Gungan.

 

[Phroobar]

I think the role of Olaf should be played by a Gungan.

Or Wesley Crusher.

 

[Sped2424]

So we should take affirmative action in theatre to undo the unjust inbalance created by the people writing the plays? That's the guy's platform... that these performers are under represented in the source material, so we should just ignore the source material to make up for that imbalance?

That's stupid. If you don't like the source material, get new source material that fits the kind of diversity you want to employ. If four of the five plays are written by people who don't include people of color in their material... maybe figure out why they are four of the five.. vs the diversification you seek.

This guy's message is saying its exactly what people pretend it's not... social activism. People claim 'its because they are the best person for the roll..' -- this guy lays it out right here saying "but to try to address the systemic imbalance, and indeed exclusion, that artists of color, artists with disabilities and even non-male artists have experienced"

It's not about being 'color blind', he actually directly counters that and says its about ensuring representation and equality.

Elsas ethnicity holds 0 importance to the context of her story. The same cannot be said of Tiana. Also people of color are widely represented at much lower numbers than non poc. Again Aladdin cast many a white person in roles that weren't about white people and everyone seemed fine with that. So if you have an issue here seems a bit hypocritical my dude.

 

[Deleted member 107043]

Again Aladdin cast many a white person in roles that weren't about white people and everyone seemed fine with that.

This.

 

[flynnibus]

Elsas ethnicity holds 0 importance to the context of her story.

Her family's position holds zero importance to the story?

The idea it's a Scandinavian kingdom means nothing to the story?

What movie did you watch?

The same cannot be said of Tiana.

Base on what exactly? Are black people the only struggling class in urban New Orleans? And she's struggling because she is black?

Her story is she's struggling working class... Not that she's been racially repressed or discriminated against.

Her story of culture is not one of being black, but of Louisiana Cajun.

I'm not seeing how her race is essential to her character beyond that was the chosen representation to make her a struggling black woman.

Also people of color are widely represented at much lower numbers than non poc.

So what. If you want a play that is race ambiguous, write and cast one. Don't use this unbalance argument as reasoning to play affirmative action and then call it "color blind".

QUOTE="Sped2424, post: 7250586, member: 86754"]
Again Aladdin cast many a white person in roles that weren't about white people and everyone seemed fine with that. So if you have an issue here seems a bit hypocritical my dude.[/QUOTE]

I'm calling a spade a spade. Is it color blind casting, or social activism? Seems to be the latter to men.

 

[Sped2424]

Her family's position holds zero importance to the story?

The idea it's a Scandinavian kingdom means nothing to the story?

What movie did you watch?



Base on what exactly? Are black people the only struggling class in urban New Orleans? And she's struggling because she is black?

Her story is she's struggling working class... Not that she's been racially repressed or discriminated against.

Her story of culture is not one of being black, but of Louisiana Cajun.

I'm not seeing how her race is essential to her character beyond that was the chosen representation to make her a struggling black woman.



So what. If you want a play that is race ambiguous, write and cast one. Don't use this unbalance argument as reasoning to play affirmative action and then call it "color blind".

QUOTE="Sped2424, post: 7250586, member: 86754"]
Again Aladdin cast many a white person in roles that weren't about white people and everyone seemed fine with that. So if you have an issue here seems a bit hypocritical my dude.

I'm calling a spade a spade. Is it color blind casting, or social activism? Seems to be the latter to men.[/QUOTE]
Aerendelle is a fictional kingdom in which the race has 0 context to the story because it is inspired by a real place rather than being said place. Where as Tianas story very much revolves around her race and social status in the 1940s in New Orleans. The film touches on that with both Dr Faciler and Tiana. When she is trying to purchase her restaurant the owners deny her due to getting a better offer and stated that the restaurant would have been a handful for a women of her "Background". Not once is this kind of allusion or importance ever given to Elsa being a white Scandinavian women. Therefore her race does not matter in the context of the narrative. Who cares if this is affirmative action social justice I don't care whatever label you want to give it the fact is this casting choice is important because again POC are highly underrepresented as it is. What is the harm at the end of the day if Elsa who is canonically white in the animated films and that is not changing if they decide to let her be played by whomever when it comes to a theme park stage production? Cause I can't think of one

 

[Old Mouseketeer]

The difference between casting a black Elsa vs casting a white Tiana can be explained in the history of race relations in this country and how it relates to representation in theater.

White people are born of certain privileges in America that black people do not have, including the amount of representation they are given in Disney films and the kinds of opportunities they have in portraying characters at the parks. White people have nothing to lose by seeing a black Scandinavian princess. Tiana, a character that has roots in a much more recent, specific time and place in America's history, a character who's race plays directly into the music and art of New Orleans in the 20's, should not be played as a white person.

I did a quick internet search to find someone else summarizing this better than me. This is the perfect explanation, from theater advocate Howard Sherman:

"One of the great fallacies employed by those who resist making the American theatre more diverse is that when opening up traditionally or even specifically white roles to people of color, it should be a two way street – that if black, API, Latino, and Native Americans can play Willy Loman or Hedda Gabler, white actors should be able to perform in the works of August Wilson. That’s nonsense. The whole point of diversifying our theatre is not to give white artists yet more opportunities, but to try to address the systemic imbalance, and indeed exclusion, that artists of color, artists with disabilities and even non-male artists have experienced. Of course, when it comes to roles specifically written for POC, those roles should be played by actors of that race or ethnicity – and again, not reducing it to the level of only Italians should play Italians and only Jews should plays Jews, but that no one should be painting their faces to pretend to an ethnicity which is obviously not theirs, while denying that opportunity to people of that race. To those who would claim that our theatre isn’t centered around white men, look no further than the results of the Dramatists Guild’s The Count, which shows that four out of every five plays produced in America is by a white man. As for those who charge racism on the part of people striving for equality in the 21st century, I would suggest you don’t fully appreciate the racial struggles that have been part of this country’s original sin since Europeans began eradicating Native Americans and forcibly bringing Africans to these shores as slaves. Perhaps those in theatre can’t ever hope to directly redress this history, but we can at least seek to model a better world in our work and on our stages. And certainly we can do better than to engage in ad hominem attacks and threats against others in our field who seek equality.”

http://www.hesherman.com/2015/10/16...t-says-more-than-a-long-blog-about-diversity/

Very well-said. For centuries white men could play black, Asian, Native American, Hispanic, gay, disabled, and, yes, even women's roles. But if any of them play white, heterosexual, abled roles??? Oh, the outrage. Oh, the humanity!!!

Take two perspective pills and call me in the morning. Seriously.

 

[Old Mouseketeer]

Elsas ethnicity holds 0 importance to the context of her story. The same cannot be said of Tiana. Also people of color are widely represented at much lower numbers than non poc. Again Aladdin cast many a white person in roles that weren't about white people and everyone seemed fine with that. So if you have an issue here seems a bit hypocritical my dude.

Spot on. Can anyone please explain to me how the self-esteem of any white boy or girl will be diminished by having color-blind casting in the Frozen show? They didn't change Elsa and Anna at the meet and greets or at the Castle Fantasy Faire show. They didn't change the home video or the merchandise. They are presenting ONE theatrical show with neutal casting.

 

[Deleted member 107043]

Let's not overstate the race issue you guys. While there's no question that discrimination and prejudice plays a big part in why some people are uncomfortable with the casting, we need to also remember that many Disneyland Resort fans are continually on the lookout for something to be upset about. Race neutral casting of a Frozen stage show is just another piece of low hanging fruit for the discontent.

 

[Old Mouseketeer]

Let's not overstate the race issue you guys. While there's no question that discrimination and prejudice plays a big part in why some people are uncomfortable with the casting, we need to also remember that many Disneyland Resort fans are continually on the lookout for something to be upset about. Race neutral casting of a Frozen stage show is just another piece of low hanging fruit for the discontent.

Oh, snap! Very well said. Bottom line for me: Race-neutral casting is not a new thing. I saw it in a college production 20 years ago. The important thing for me is whether it's a good show and worth not only an hour of my time to see, but also the mandatory report time to preserve your fast pass, plus showing up before opening and standing in line to get it. Or waiting until a) there are more shows and b) the lines die down.

 

[flynnibus]

Aerendelle is a fictional kingdom in which the race has 0 context to the story because it is inspired by a real place rather than being said place.

Why not make it set in Canada for the stage show the? They have elk/reindeer... And snow, water, and ice right? Wouldn't make any difference by your logic. We could let it go eh!

The story is set in fictional place very much with a production design intended to draw on an existing setting and locale. Her being a princess is essential to the story, the time period is relevant, as is the setting. If you introduce things that would detract from the credibility of those things coexisting... It's a distraction. The film's production design is not completely location agnostic.

Her position and kingdom are essential elements of the plot. Things that go against those character traits would be counter productive.

Why is costume , dialect, and other things we should respect as important to maintaining character... But all of a sudden skin color not part of the characters representation? Race is part of a Scandinavian royal family. If you swap out the frozen townsfolk with the bazaar cast and costumes.... Things are going to be off... Even tho the story didn't hinge on their individual identities.

Lack of consistency hurts story and character design.

Where as Tianas story very much revolves around her race and social status in the 1940s in New Orleans. The film touches on that with both Dr Faciler and Tiana. When she is trying to purchase her restaurant the owners deny her due to getting a better offer and stated that the restaurant would have been a handful for a women of her "Background".

And that can't possibly be about being poor, a woman, and from a broken family with no stature... You hang this all on race.... The very same environment that is going to marry the rich white girl to A BLACK MAN as the preferred outcome of the family?? So tiana is discriminated by race...yet they are color blind to naveen? The character drawn just as black as dr facilier

If race was the critical crux of tiana's angst, her friendship with Charlotte and Charlotte plus naveen would make no sense in their acceptance in the story's constructs.

Tiana is a working class single woman in an era where women are sub ornate and discrimination against all types of classes is normal. Religion, race, gender, nationality, language, wealth, etc

Patf could be told with a poor Cajun white girl all the same. Still not a southern belle, still working class, still discriminated and held back because of her family, lack of wealth, etc.

It wouldn't be the same only because it lacks the 'first black princess' rider... Which is important to the film's production and release... Not really to the story.

Not once is this kind of allusion or importance ever given to Elsa being a white Scandinavian women.

Except the whole idea that she's the princess of a northern kingdom... Yeah, nothing at all there... Just because she's not discriminated by or elevated because of race does not make something race neutral. Napoleon as a 6ft black dude would raise eyebrows too... Or Socrates played by a little Asian guy. Their presentation does not fit the characters known visual constructs even tho their story plot does not hinge on race relations.

Who cares if this is affirmative action social justice I don't care whatever label you want to give it the fact is this casting choice is important because again POC are highly underrepresented as it is.

Because it's not just a label. Motivation and intent are very much important parts of a discussion when discussing intentional change. (Budget cuts in attraction delivery anyone... Ready to give up that cross in the spirit of 'who cares'?)

What is the harm at the end of the day if Elsa who is canonically white in the animated films and that is not changing if they decide to let her be played by whomever when it comes to a theme park stage production? Cause I can't think of one

Well one... You are portraying a known character and trying to retell a specific version of the story. This isn't 'the snow queen... A Hyperion production' -- it's intentionally meant to be a stage production of the film.

If you want to call it creative freedom to rewrite the story... Ok...but it's not color blind.. It's a reworking.

The reality is advocates want us to look PAST these inconsistencies in the spirit of social equality... Be color-blind.

It has nothing to do with story neutrality and everything to do with affirmative action. People are making crap up like the role is race neutral to try to justify WHY people shouldn't be distracted verse having to argue the reworking should be tolerated as its intended.

Characters are reworked all the time in different adaptations of stories... But we don't tell people to pretend the differences don't exist, they sell the character design as fitting the story they are telling.

Here, people say 'just close your eyes to that part'.... Instead of selling it as fitting.

 

[flynnibus]

Spot on. Can anyone please explain to me how the self-esteem of any white boy or girl will be diminished by having color-blind casting in the Frozen show? .

Straw man much? Who said anything about someone's personal feelings?

This guy is white... That doesn't make a suitable TRON casting

It's not about race.... As much as the advocates wish to paint protagonists as racists for not going along.

 

[Rich T]

In a live production, it doesn't matter what race the actors are, whether puppeteers and wires are visible, or whether the sets are literal recreations. All that matters is the performance. That's the magic of the stage.

 

[Andrew_Ryan]

Let's not overstate the race issue you guys. While there's no question that discrimination and prejudice plays a big part in why some people are uncomfortable with the casting, we need to also remember that many Disneyland Resort fans are continually on the lookout for something to be upset about. Race neutral casting of a Frozen stage show is just another piece of low hanging fruit for the discontent.

I see where you are coming from, but this particular issue is a whole 'nother ball game as far as I am concerned. FWIW, I'm a dude who complains about a lot of things regarding the parks, but I would never point to the diverse casting in Frozen as something to take issue with. As fans, we should be able to separate legitimate criticism from outright racism.

 

[brb1006]

So we went from Frozen to race casting. At least Olaf's okay and some of the trolls.

 

[FerretAfros]

For the last 4 years, Disney has been waxing poetic about how authentic Frozen is to Norwegian culture and traditions. They've had blog posts about their research expeditions to Norway, sold guided tours to Norway, and rebuilt the attraction in their theme park area that showcases Norway. If I go only by what Disney has said about Frozen, it is the pinnacle of authenticity and reverence toward Norwegian culture.

Contrast that with Aladdin, which has never claimed to be an accurate representation of Middle East culture in any way. If the movie were made today, many of the sight gags would have to be left out because they don't play well to modern sensibilities. Per Disney's own admissions, visual style of the film was based more on American ink drawings of the 1930's & 40's than any authentic architecture or art.

That's why the casting of this bothers me more than the casting of Aladdin. Sure I thought it was strange that the Sultan was black and Jasmine was lighter skinned. But it wasn't as if Disney had constantly told us how much they were honoring any particular culture with the source material. Also with Aladdin, they took a lot more liberties with the artistic direction and gave the sets an entirely new look compared to the film; with Frozen, nearly everything looks like it was pulled directly from the film, with the exception of the actors. When the company continues to spew how authentic it is, while simultaneously casting it in a way that runs directly contrary to it, it leaves a bad taste in my mouth

Given that the film is set in a seafaring crossroads, a certain level of diversity is allowed and even expected among the cast. But when you try to tell us how authentic and detailed everything is, yet take certain departures seemingly on a whim, it appears to go against everything they've told us to date. Either make it a fresh take on the source material, or create an authentic adaptation. Either one is perfectly fine, but you can't have both.

 

[Deleted member 107043]

Either one is perfectly fine, but you can't have both.

Why not? Frozen the show is not Frozen the movie.