From the OS: Gator drags child into Seven Seas Lagoon

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LuvtheGoof

Grill Master
Premium Member
I guess I look at differently .. If your not allowed to swim in the water why would you think it's okay to just wade in the water.
Because in today's society, if you don't post something specifically prohibiting something, people will take that as tacit approval for you to go right ahead and do it, regardless of right or wrong or intent.

Oh, and we agree with you. We would never have thought about wading in the water either.
 

21stamps

Well-Known Member
There need to be signs (text and international symbols) warning about alligators; roped-off areas barring guests from the lakeshore, with employee patrols to enforce it; an aggressive policy of removing alligators from guest-frequented areas of the property; and an ongoing guest education program about the dos and don'ts of WDW wildlife, coupled with a strict, vigorously-enforced policy against feeding alligators.
Do you want this at every hotel/resort in Florida, or only at Disney?
 

wdwfan22

Well-Known Member
Because in today's society, if you don't post something specifically prohibiting something, people will take that as tacit approval for you to go right ahead and do it, regardless of right or wrong or intent.

Oh, and we agree with you. We would never have thought about wading in the water either.

True but if anyone thinks because they are going to post a sign that people will adhere to it they have another thing coming.
 

s8film40

Well-Known Member
I guess I look at differently .. If your not allowed to swim in the water why would you think it's okay to just wade in the water.
I think a logical assumption would be they don't want you out in the water swimming because of the boat traffic.

Also as separate thought, I'm not sure when the most recent one was that they did this but I know at least a few years ago when they do the triathlon the athletes swim through the lake. Additionally people are skiing, parasailing and various other activities in the water that would imply it's safe to be in the water at least in a limited sense. I have a hard time drawing the conclusion that "no swimming" is because it's not safe to come in contact with the water in any way at all.
 

LuvtheGoof

Grill Master
Premium Member
True but if anyone thinks because they are going to post a sign that people will adhere to it they have another thing coming.
You are absolutely correct. People don't care anymore. They just do what they want to because they think they are entitled to.
 

Dylan Ann

Active Member
I guess I look at differently .. If your not allowed to swim in the water why would you think it's okay to just wade in the water.

I know everyone looks at it differently, but I look at it was someone who was a lifeguard for 7 years. I personally equate "No Swimming" with protection from drowning. I grew up in New York, so growing up the only fear I had of the water was from drowning, not from alligators. I am fully confident in my swimming abilities but also have a great respect for the water - the same way that most of the Florida residents chiming in here have for alligators. I would not disobey a "No Swimming" sign because even as a strong swimmer, I know things can happen. I also always heed "No Diving" signs, even when I know I can safely dive into a more shallow pool depth. I understand the risks, so I take precautions. However, never in a million years would I be afraid of drowning by putting my feet in the water - unless there was some crazy storms and waves.

I respect that people from Florida understand the risk of alligators, but if you don't grow up thinking there might be an alligator in the water, the danger doesn't even dawn on you.
 

21stamps

Well-Known Member
Because in today's society, if you don't post something specifically prohibiting something, people will take that as tacit approval for you to go right ahead and do it, regardless of right or wrong or intent.

Oh, and we agree with you. We would never have thought about wading in the water either.
But what if your child was standing at the shoreline? He's not in the water, but the same result can happen.

I just hope this thread opens maybe a few eyes to seeing that there is risk in almost everything we do..but you shouldn't avoid everything because of it!

I'm sorry but so much of what I'm reading is really sad. To me anyway.
 

jaklgreen

Well-Known Member
I guess I look at differently .. If your not allowed to swim in the water why would you think it's okay to just wade in the water.

This is what we have always believed too. If there is a reason they do not want you swimming then there is a problem. Whether it is amoebas, alligators, dangerous currents, etc. There are a million reasons they put up a no swimming sign. None of them good. So why would it be OK to even wade in it. With the amoebas, I would think that if you had a cut on your foot then bacteria could travel through your blood stream. It reminds me of your big brother being told not to touch you and he sticks his finger a half an inch from your face saying "I'm not touching you". Its a convenient work around a sign that saying it does not want you in there.
 

asianway

Well-Known Member
There need to be signs (text and international symbols) warning about alligators; roped-off areas barring guests from the lakeshore, with employee patrols to enforce it; a continuous, aggressive program of removing alligators from guest-frequented areas of the property; and an ongoing guest education program about the dos and don'ts of WDW wildlife, coupled with a strict, vigorously-enforced policy against feeding alligators.
Policy against feeding alligators? This is already a Florida state law - no need.
 

RandomPrincess

Keep Moving Forward
One of my favorite memories from my kids' first trip to WDW. We hung out on the beach for about an hour. We watched the water parade, walked right up to the edge of the water, wiggled our toes in the wet sand. Never once did it cross our minds that there might be alligators out in the water.

image.jpeg
 

flynnibus

Premium Member
Let me be a little more clear, since I am not always that attentive with my posts when I am at work. Generally, attacks by wild animals not in captivity are governed by the common law rule of animals ferae naturae (i.e., wild-natured). This concept DOES PREVENT property owners from being held liable for animal attacks that occur on their land. HOWEVER, it DOES NOT protect property owners from liability if they were negligent in preventing injuries. There are four elements that must be proved: duty of care, breach of that duty, causation, and damages.

This is where I was driving to.. your statements failed to address the various tests that must be evaluated before such a determination of liability is made or is conclusive. Yet, you kept going down the duty of care and nothing else.. so they are liable -- failing to acknowledge or evaluate the other tests.

It is "uncontrolled" by Disney's design. It was left open by Disney's design. It was left "un-monitored" by Disney's design. This was not some isolated location on Disney property, this was a man-made beach in front of a resort hotel. Disney had an absolute duty of care. By not warning guests of potential hazards, they breached that duty. Their failure to exercise any supervision of the area, or to provide any barriers for known-dangerous animals or prevention of guests from entering a restricted area caused a guest to be attacked by a wild animal. And there were damages. This incident meets all four elements. You want to defend Disney all day long because you think they are innocent, and I'm telling you that you are wrong.

So by your evaluation, every Golf Course in the South is a liability nightmare waiting to be exploited and any in bear country are just disasters waiting to happen. How would any insurance company underwrite any property design like a Golf Course since it leaves things open to nature, its left 'un-monitored', provides no barriers for known-dangerous animals, and no preventing of customers from leaving the groomed areas.

Or how about every HOA and Developer in Florida that has water retention ponds and open spaces in their developments that are un-monitored, unrestricted, and just ripe to have some innocent person violated by wild animals such as snakes, coyotes, bears, and gators. By your listed standards, everyone one of these entities would be liable for any attacks period. Sounds like you should be retiring and getting your license for Florida so you can collect on this untapped market.

Or.. again are there more tests you are leaving out before laying judgement?

When someone enters your property, they have a reasonable expectation of not getting injured. Under "premises liability", the property owner is responsible for maintaining a safe environment. This absolutely applies to Disney.

Of course, liability is determined by the laws of the individual states, so there will be differences in the liability for each state . But they all adopt the "premises liability" premise. Nature or not, there can be liability.

At least now you have softened to 'can be liability'. Sure, but it is with limits - limits you glossed over previously and only after highlighting how your universal judgements don't apply that you even start to acknowledge.

I'm a Federal prosecutor, but nice try.

God help us.

And while yes, you can argue that wild animals are outside human control, that's not entirely true. We can to an extent protect against wild animals. So that would not apply.

It does, and has held true in court.
Like this cite... http://www.leagle.com/decision/1986839487So2d352_1752/PALUMBO v. GAME & FRESH WATER FISH COM'N
"The law of Florida does not require the owner or possessor of land to anticipate the presence of or to guard an invitee or trespasser against harm from wild animals unless one of two conditions exists: the animal has been reduced to possession, or the animal is not indigenous to the locality but has been introduced onto the premises. Appellees had not reduced the alligator to possession before the attack, and since alligators are indigenous to Florida, appellees were not required to have the alligator under dominion and control."

And it can also be argued if the changes Disney has implemented in the area vs the natural state actually increases the risk, or if its a risk consistent with that kind of body of water everywhere (the premise where the city was not liable for risk of their ocean beach, because the risks were consistent of all ocean beaches - http://archive.law.fsu.edu/library/flsupct/sc02-1568/02-1569ans.pdf )

Just because it's possible to control wild animals, that does not infer automatic negligence if one is found. Again, there is more to this.. and there are plenty of cases where the courts have found property owners not liable for the actions of wild animals.. even tho it happened on their property.

Yes this was a horrible accident, and yes the parents also have a duty of care. But we don't know what they knew about alligators on Disney property, or about not being allowed in the water. But Disney DID know, and they failed to communicate that information to their guests.

again that breach of that duty is open to interpretation. In one of the other gator/swimmer cases, the gator warning signs were present, but not in the immediate proximity of the area in question, and they were considered as existing. There is also the question of if its necessary to disclose that given the location.

Wrong again. Swimming pools are almost always addressed separately for liability, because they can be pretty hazardous under normal conditions. You are correct as far as adults are concerned, in that liability for misconduct that can cause an injury will generally not be assigned to the pool owner. Usually a basic standard duty of care is all that is required, and the legal status pf the pool user also can come into play (i.e., is he trespassing). However, when it comes to children, pool owners have a heightened duty of care (regardless as to whether or not the child is trespassing). So in your example Disney would most likely be found liable to some extent as a matter of law.

On the premise of what.. that it's possible for shallow water to cause injuries period?


Also, I want to point out that there is a concept in law also known as Strict liability. Under strict liability it wouldn't matter who caused the accident, the property owner will always be responsible. That's usually because strict liability is associated with inherently dangerous activities. In this case, depending on what Disney knows about the alligators on property and what they do as a matter of policy, they could be held to strict liability. In other words, does Disney allow the alligators to roam free in certain guest areas (such as the beach) without intervening and re-locating them? If so, they know they are playing with fire and that an attack is probable

Can you cite any cases where strict liability has been applied to gator attacks? Or natural wildlife attacks in public spaces? Because plenty of gator attacks have been argued in court... and I can't find situations and precedent set for strict liability applying to wild animals not in captivity or introduced by the property owner.
 

matt9112

Well-Known Member
There need to be signs (text and international symbols) warning about alligators; roped-off areas barring guests from the lakeshore, with video surveillance and employee patrols to enforce it; a continuous, aggressive program of removing alligators from guest-frequented areas of the property; and an ongoing guest education program about the dos and don'ts of WDW wildlife, coupled with a strict, vigorously-enforced policy against feeding alligators.

knee jerk....
 

ninjaprincesst

Well-Known Member
How is all this bickering and arguing over signage, parenting habits, Disney-negligence, etc going to bring this little boy back?

I get it. Everyone has an opinion and a "hot take" on the situation. But opinions are like..well you know how the saying goes. Signs are coming and the beaches will re-open. Hopefully this will help avoid another tragedy.

But seriously, a family lost a child yet people are upset at each other over other's opinions. Come on now.
No it's because Disney is being blamed for the family losing the child, when the family was breaking the rules
Policy against feeding alligators? This is already a Florida state law - no need.
Apparently people have to have everything laid out for them they are going to have to post signs that read like a novel, no swimming, no wading, no sticking your feet hands or in other appendage in the water, don't feed the alligators or any other wildlife, beware of alligators, parasite and on and on , there is no common sense anymore so they are going to after cover it all before another child is tragically lost.
 

asianway

Well-Known Member
No it's because Disney is being blamed for the family losing the child, when the family was breaking the rules

Apparently people have to have everything laid out for them they are going to have to post signs that read like a novel, no swimming, no wading, no sticking your feet hands or in other appendage in the water, don't feed the alligators or any other wildlife, beware of alligators, parasite and on and on , there is no common sense anymore so they are going to after cover it all before another child is tragically lost.
Posted every 10 yards in Burma Shave Style
 

micdisney

Member
There is to much public pressure for Disney not to do anything. They will probably go above and beyond because that's the great company we all know and love. They will update and add new signs. If that does anything who knows but they will because that's what the public is complaining about. I don't blame Disney at all or the parents. Freak accident.
 

21stamps

Well-Known Member
This is where I was driving to.. your statements failed to address the various tests that must be evaluated before such a determination of liability is made or is conclusive. Yet, you kept going down the duty of care and nothing else.. so they are liable -- failing to acknowledge or evaluate the other tests.



So by your evaluation, every Golf Course in the South is a liability nightmare waiting to be exploited and any in bear country are just disasters waiting to happen. How would any insurance company underwrite any property design like a Golf Course since it leaves things open to nature, its left 'un-monitored', provides no barriers for known-dangerous animals, and no preventing of customers from leaving the groomed areas.

Or how about every HOA and Developer in Florida that has water retention ponds and open spaces in their developments that are un-monitored, unrestricted, and just ripe to have some innocent person violated by wild animals such as snakes, coyotes, bears, and gators. By your listed standards, everyone one of these entities would be liable for any attacks period. Sounds like you should be retiring and getting your license for Florida so you can collect on this untapped market.

Or.. again are there more tests you are leaving out before laying judgement?



At least now you have softened to 'can be liability'. Sure, but it is with limits - limits you glossed over previously and only after highlighting how your universal judgements don't apply that you even start to acknowledge.



God help us.



It does, and has held true in court.
Like this cite... http://www.leagle.com/decision/1986839487So2d352_1752/PALUMBO v. GAME & FRESH WATER FISH COM'N
"The law of Florida does not require the owner or possessor of land to anticipate the presence of or to guard an invitee or trespasser against harm from wild animals unless one of two conditions exists: the animal has been reduced to possession, or the animal is not indigenous to the locality but has been introduced onto the premises. Appellees had not reduced the alligator to possession before the attack, and since alligators are indigenous to Florida, appellees were not required to have the alligator under dominion and control."

And it can also be argued if the changes Disney has implemented in the area vs the natural state actually increases the risk, or if its a risk consistent with that kind of body of water everywhere (the premise where the city was not liable for risk of their ocean beach, because the risks were consistent of all ocean beaches - http://archive.law.fsu.edu/library/flsupct/sc02-1568/02-1569ans.pdf )

Just because it's possible to control wild animals, that does not infer automatic negligence if one is found. Again, there is more to this.. and there are plenty of cases where the courts have found property owners not liable for the actions of wild animals.. even tho it happened on their property.



again that breach of that duty is open to interpretation. In one of the other gator/swimmer cases, the gator warning signs were present, but not in the immediate proximity of the area in question, and they were considered as existing. There is also the question of if its necessary to disclose that given the location.



On the premise of what.. that it's possible for shallow water to cause injuries period?




Can you cite any cases where strict liability has been applied to gator attacks? Or natural wildlife attacks in public spaces? Because plenty of gator attacks have been argued in court... and I can't find situations and precedent set for strict liability applying to wild animals not in captivity or introduced by the property owner.
I wish I could like this a million times.
No it's because Disney is being blamed for the family losing the child, when the family was breaking the rules

Apparently people have to have everything laid out for them they are going to have to post signs that read like a novel, no swimming, no wading, no sticking your feet hands or in other appendage in the water, don't feed the alligators or any other wildlife, beware of alligators, parasite and on and on , there is no common sense anymore so they are going to after cover it all before another child is tragically lost.
Your first part- no they weren't. Even though they were not breaking the rules, it still isn't Disney's fault.

Your second paragraph- Completely agree. From the Zoo attack til now I have realized just how many stupid people exist in this world. I fear for my child- one because there are more crazy terrorists and crazy people in general.
Also-Because he is going to have to deal with so many ignorant people who don't choose to learn about the world they live in. Instead they want everyone to warn them of any possible situation that maybe could possibly happen....And if they are not properly warned then- they want to blame and sue someone else, because of their own laziness.
 
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